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Good Guy to Bad Guy

Joe Washington

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
Anakin Skywalker's turn to the dark side.

Walter White's transformation from a harmless high school teacher to a ruthless, murderous drug kingpin.

The Wesley character from the movie Wanted going from being a miserable drone of a human being to a remorseless killing machine who gets enjoyment from being an assasin.

What is the appeal of watching a good guy turn into a bad guy?
 
I haven't watched Breaking Bad yet, so I won't comment on that specifically.

As to Anakin, I took no enjoyment from his fall. His characterization and "fall" such as it was is the major reason why the prequels did not work for me. I can forgive Jar Jar, CGI, Jake Lloyd, and all the rest. But to make Anakin such a bland boring character and then make his descent into darkness so silly and even boring, ruined the prequels.

As to Wesley from Wanted, he isn't a bad guy. He believed that the Loom was sending out names of people who needed to be killed. Once he discovered he was wrong the only people he killed were bad guys.

As far as the topic in general, any time a character changes radically and it is well written it is interesting and creates all sorts of story potential.
 
Because it can be an excellent exercise in presenting the trappings of man, & entertaining, in that the potential outcomes can be explored/witnessed/shared by people who might never otherwise consider those ramifications, as they are not willing to take the risks, or are not willing to become someone with those motives, due to moral objections

Take "Office Space" for example. This too is a tale of men going bad, sheepish techies turning to embezzlement. Since it's a comedy, we get to be amused by the stupidity of their plans, like the money laundering dictionary scene, for instance

Dramatically though, it also has advantages as the viewer becomes invested in the riskiness of the bad doers. It's risky to do wrongful & illegal things. Risk, danger, conflict, that's where drama comes from

Also, let's face it. No one is engaged by a bad guy turning good, unless it's in the last 10-15 minutes of a long cinematic conflict, like Vader turning on the Emperor in Jedi, to return to the Star Wars subject
 
What's the appeal? The gray areas and rationalizations that can lead a "good" person to do "bad" things, while all along they believe they are in the right. That's entertainment.

There are good examples and bad examples of this being done. The worst example I can think of is that of Peter Watts in Millennium. It happened too fast without any good reason.
 
Also, let's face it. No one is engaged by a bad guy turning good, unless it's in the last 10-15 minutes of a long cinematic conflict, like Vader turning on the Emperor in Jedi, to return to the Star Wars subject

Oh I don't know; Damar's journey from thug to murderer to drunk to dictator to rebel to hero is one of the best bits of DS9 for me.
 
What is the appeal of watching a good guy turn into a bad guy?

To paraphrase the Joker:

"Cause all it takes is one bad day"


The best bad guys are always the ones you can sympathize with. Look at Khan, the man was over the top, crazed and hellbent on revenge. But, Kirk stuck him on a shitty planet, and his wife and a lot of his people died because of that.

If I were in Khan's place, I'd have done the same thing.

Now, Anakin, that's just pure tragedy right there. Think about it, what did he do up until the end of RotS that was so wrong?
Come on, he didn't attack Mace with malice, he attacked him out of fear.

Anakin had a lot of issues and no one to talk to about them. Yoda and Obi-won turned a blind eye towards the kid, Mace hated him and was always an asshole to him. He fell in love with a girl, like teenage guys do. He felt trapped and scared. Then finally he had someone he could confide him, someone who listened to him, someone who treated him like a capable adult in Palapatine. The poor guy was terrified of losing the one person he thought he could trust and had a truly beneficial friendship with. So Mace was going to break the laws and murder that person, so he stopped him.

He could have killed Mace but he didn't, he just chopped his lightsaber hand, which is considered "civilized." But then Palps killed Mace, and in that moment Anakin knew he was trapped and resigned to his fate. The shit was fucking sad. And what seals the whole thing, both Yoda and Obi-won know that they share some of the blame for how everything went down.

That's why we love bad guys. Cause often times they're the most human character in the story. We identify with their flaws.
 
That's why we love bad guys. Cause often times they're the most human character in the story. We identify with their flaws.

Which is exactly why I still sympathise with Walter White; Breaking Bad is required watching in our house...
 
As to Anakin, I took no enjoyment from his fall. His characterization and "fall" such as it was is the major reason why the prequels did not work for me. I can forgive Jar Jar, CGI, Jake Lloyd, and all the rest. But to make Anakin such a bland boring character and then make his descent into darkness so silly and even boring, ruined the prequels.

He was a whining, spoilt, charmless nonentity. A wasted opportunity.
 
What is the appeal of watching a good guy turn into a bad guy?
Because it's hard to write convincingly and something that requires effort and skill is inherently impressive to watch.

Of course, it does have to be done well. Walter White = done well. Anakin Skywalker = not so much.
Also, let's face it. No one is engaged by a bad guy turning good,
The example already given of Damar shows that the bad-to-good transformation can also be impressive (although I think it's easier to pull off.)

The best bad guys are always the ones you can sympathize with.
I can't sympathize with Walt at all; he's obviously committing crimes now for his own ego, not "for his family." But that's a credit to the writers, that they aren't wimping out by making excuses for their villainous protagonist. It would be sooo easy to excuse him - poor dear has cancer, he's only trying to support his loved ones - but instead they're testing the limits of the audience's willingness to continue watching despite not being given an easy character to root for.

George Lucas should take notes. Making excuses for your villainous protagonist just makes him look pathetic.
Now, Anakin, that's just pure tragedy right there. Think about it, what did he do up until the end of RotS that was so wrong?
Exist. :rommie:
 
With Anakin Skywalker, I was mainly curious to see how he became Darth Vader, nothing more. I knew nothing of the backstory before seeing ROTS.

Another "Good Guy to Bad Guy" is Jason Todd in the Batman comics. The second Robin, who was killed by the Joker, then resurrected. Don't ask how he was resurrected, the reason is stupid and makes no sense (even by comic standards) especially when they had a much better way to do it staring them in the face. Anyway, after he came back, he grew up to become the Red Hood (one of the Joker's former identities) and, unlike Batman, is willing to kill criminals and anyone who stands in his way.

What makes these types of characters interesting is to see how they use twisted logic to justify what they're doing. They think they're completely right. When they have a point, it's something that can challenge the hero's views and make the audience consider whether or not how the protagonist operates is correct.

And, yeah, on the flip-side, Damar is one of the best examples of a "bad guy" turning good.
 
I think Babylon 5 would've been more interesting if Girabaldi hadn't been programmed by the Psy-Corps, but betrayed Sheridan on his own.

Also, let's face it. No one is engaged by a bad guy turning good,
The example already given of Damar shows that the bad-to-good transformation can also be impressive (although I think it's easier to pull off.)

I'd argue that Damar was never bad per se, he was a Cardassian patriot, once that meant following Dukat, accepting (but disliking) the Dominion, killing a "traitor" (Ziyal) and later deciding that he couldn't stomach his people being treated a subjects to the Dominion's whims.

Dukat was intriguing when he was in anti-hero mode...before the show runners realized they made him to much of a good guy.
 
Interesting topic...and I guess like the other thread about TV couples needing unhappy relationships you can't just leave a good guy as a static character without it ending up being a bit boring (frankly I think that's part of why Smallville got boring after about season 5 or so for me).

As for Star Wars...while I despised Anakin's whiny b*tchiness all throughout Episode II in a way it fits with the character arc...he's like a teenager just off to college in a way, stretching his wings, testing the limits, finding out who he REALLY is, and unfortunately for all those not on the side of the Empire it turns out not to be so good. Obi Wan did kinda rub salt in the wound in Episode III anyway, but only after everything went as bad as it could anyway. Anakin probably didn't appreciate much finding out his kids were still alive later on either, don't blame him much for being mad at Obi Wan for keeping Luke and Leia from him. Makes Vader's actions in the original trilogy, his cold heartlessness a little more understandable in a way. Still kinda sad to see that little boy that had so much hope after leaving Tatootine turn into what he did.

This topic makes me think of Supernatural as well, especially season four. With the story being based around two brothers you know there's going to the 'good one' and the 'bad one', the whole Cain and Abel thing, it's unavoidable in a way.

At the beginning of the series it was kinda hard to really...like Dean. Sam was the one that was easier to empathize with, he was the good guy that ended up seeing his whole 'new' life burned up in front of him. Sure he whined and moped for most of the season afterward, but who wouldn't? As we got to know Dean, he became a bit more likable but underneath still seemed a bit of a jerk and womanizer.

I don't think it was really until the end of Season 2, probably with the last 3 or 4 episodes, that I personally had any real...empathy for Dean at all. I still think he was wrong to make the deal he did at that point, but the series wouldn't be the same if they had left things as they were (hey, how's that for not spoiling things?). We go on to season 3 and see both brothers dealing with the repercussions of Dean's choice...and the main reason I even care about what's going to happen to Dean is because as we all know at this point where one Winchester goes the other will likely follow. Even Dean himself doesn't seem to care much about what's going to happen outside of his brother's safety and livelihood.

So...we come to Season 4, Dean's choice and all it's lovely fall out. I finally start to care about the Dean and wonder about his whole mental state...while my REAL favorite character, Sam, starts his whole journey down the 'dark side'. Sure it was hinted at starting with the end of season 1, but I never started...disliking Sam until this point. The writers even seem to start almost rewriting the character in a way to MAKE him seem darker. He was the one who refused outright to kill someone who threatened to kill him (well...unless you count Gordon Walker, but he was asking for it by the third try), yet by the end of the season is killing without much remorse. I don't know...I just I don't like what they did to Sam in Season 4, I liked the old Sam better I guess. I suppose watching a good character self destruct makes for good drama and that's probably why it's one of Supernatural's fan favorite seasons.

I guess what I'm getting at is Sam Winchester seems like another good example of a good guy turned bad, at least for a while. Dean Winchester might be an example of the reverse happening.
 
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of all the aforementioned films in the OP's original post I've only seen Star Wars.

I'm not too sure exactly how I feel about Anakin's transformation. I'm a bit torn.

I feel as though Anakin could have been a more successful character if instead of being the arrogant, egotistical teen that he became (out of no where...) he was more of a just a darker person in general. as a child, he showed no signs of being evil, but instead was called "the chosen one" which I kind of wish they wouldn't have said because it just makes me underestimate the power of the jedi. I mean, him being caring and helpful was understandable because it was crucial to his character and Luke seeing the good in him. I think the transformation of a jedi becoming a sith wasn't a bad idea either but I wish instead of Anakin being the chosen one, Luke was. when you think about it, Luke gets no cudi. George Lucas was interviewed on the series and the characters, and says that the series was the story of Anakin Skywalker. Not Luke who leads the rebellion and saves the galaxy and is 90% of all the movies. If anything he should have been the chosen one with all of the midi-chlorians, not Anakinhttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian. and I would appreciate the entire story being about him if his character had any development over the first two movies, but it didn't. sure, he said some revealing things such as Luke being his son, but he really had no storyline until Return of the Jedi. As for the first movies...ehem...they didn't do him ANY justice. He was adorable in the first one. smart, likeable... so on. but then in Attack of the Clones they turned him into this ego-maniac who was portrayed poorly by Hayden Christenson and written poorly by the writers. Some of his lines addressed to Padme literally make me want to burn the damn dvd. it's cheesy and cliche. TWILIGHT had better writing. I would have liked to see early Anakin as a more intelligent, yet dark and manipulative person. by making him cheesy and arrogant they just take away from the intensity of his character and therefore make him less badass. especially when Obi-Wan defeats him and sets him on fire.


This is just my opinion though. As, shockingly, a devout Star Wars fan. hahaha : )
 
As for Star Wars...while I despised Anakin's whiny b*tchiness all throughout Episode II in a way it fits with the character arc...he's like a teenager just off to college in a way, stretching his wings, testing the limits, finding out who he REALLY is, and unfortunately for all those not on the side of the Empire it turns out not to be so good. Obi Wan did kinda rub salt in the wound in Episode III anyway, but only after everything went as bad as it could anyway. Anakin probably didn't appreciate much finding out his kids were still alive later on either, don't blame him much for being mad at Obi Wan for keeping Luke and Leia from him. Makes Vader's actions in the original trilogy, his cold heartlessness a little more understandable in a way. Still kinda sad to see that little boy that had so much hope after leaving Tatootine turn into what he did.


totally agree.
 
I agree with a lot of reasons that others have posted, but I wanted to add that I think watching a person descend is compelling perhaps because it taps into the dark side in all of us. And there's a kind of but for the grace of God go I thing as I watch some characters make dark turns, as they give into their fear, anger, lust, greed, etc.

I really liked how Johnathon Wally described Anakin's fall. I wish he had been able to consult with Lucas and we might've gotten a better portrayal of Anakin's fall. Even though I have a built in predilection for Star Wars and liked AOTC and ROTS, I didn't quite buy Anakin's fall. It felt too rushed, and I didn't quite get that he would agree to kill all the Jedi and that he would personally do it. That he would kill the children. I don't think enough preparation went into laying that groundwork for the character. Plus, I just didn't buy him seeing the Jedi as 'evil'. Or that he wanted to rule the Empire. I know that was thrown in to link to Vader in ESB/ROTJ, but it didn't work for me in ROTS. A lot of Anakin's depiction seemed plot driven and not emanating from the character himself. Anakin's actions, as all the prequel characters to some extent, had to be made to connect the plot points more than it always feeling organic.

Though to be fair, Lucas did make Anakin a child murderer in AOTC, but he softened it by spending time showing Anakin caring for his dying mother and not as much time showing him attacking the sand people. Padme also quickly absolved him, Yoda never questioned Anakin about the torment even he felt, and the issue was swept away under the rug. It was briefly addressed in the comics and as an aside in ROTS, but to a large extent it was forgotten.

I think Lucas had a hard time juggling Anakin as hero and emerging villain. I think it would've been easier to start Anakin out as an anti-hero and made Obi Wan the true hero of the prequels, which could've freed up Lucas to not have to try to balance the light and the dark in Anakin. Just start him off gray and turn him dark as the war progressed and he lost more respect for life the more he fought and killed, etc.

I agree with 1Little about Luke being the Chosen One. He should've been. I think Lucas just said that about Anakin to hype up the prequels. Luke as Chosen One makes more sense. And I loved that little scene between Mace and Yoda in which they pondered if the prophecy about the Chosen One had been misread in ROTS, until Lucas restated that Anakin is the Chosen One. Though I thought the idea of the Chosen One was crap anyway, and is something overdone in stories way too much.

I also think the redemption angle is a powerful story too. From bad guy or borderline bad guy to good guy. We've seen this quite a lot. The struggle between the light and dark is compelling to watch with that as well. And there's always movies like Hitman where the bad guy/anti-hero gets an epiphany and decides they don't want to do bad things anymore, but have to do a lot of bad things in order to have a new life.
 
Anakin Skywalker's turn to the dark side.

Walter White's transformation from a harmless high school teacher to a ruthless, murderous drug kingpin.

The Wesley character from the movie Wanted going from being a miserable drone of a human being to a remorseless killing machine who gets enjoyment from being an assasin.

What is the appeal of watching a good guy turn into a bad guy?

An unremarked aspect of Star Wars is how the the Force is in a way an invisible character, the one who keeps the Imperial Storm troopers from blasting Luke (and Leia, too, I suppose,) in the first movie, for example. A key part of Anakin's turn is how the Dark Side of the Force takes over once he has broken self-discipline. After that, he is a different person, one who could kill children. That contamination of his previous personality was not really on screen (and really, how could it be?) But, the slaughter of the children was actually very unpleasant. Worse, it doesn't relate to people because there is no Force. The metaphor or personification or whatever "The Force" is, therefore has no power, no shock of recognition. Also, in dramatic terms, not seeing the Force makes the story something like Hamlet without the Prince. Naturally, it's less engaging.

The criticisms of Anakin Skywalker as a whiny, spoiled brat presume that evil is at the least a tragedy, where a noble person's flaw leads to an inevitable downfall. Or, even worse, it presumes there is something sexy or cool about being bad. Anakin isn't sexy or cool. He's not captain of his soul and master of his fate but a manipulated stooge. Which is incidentally an artistic necessity if there is to be some innate good left to be restored by Luke at the end of the story.

The prequels seem to me to be pretty accurate about people who fall into doing evil, which is that it isn't because they're sexy or cool or their nobility is tragically undone by a single flaw. It's because they're petty and keep making excuses and change themselves by their actions into something they wouldn't have consciously chosen. They are all, on one level at least, fools. In short, the "pleasure" of Anakin going bad is mixed.

As for Wesley, there is no pleasure. In the movie's degenerate morality, Wesley is not a villain when he's doing the assassinations according to the mystical plan, and when he finds out he's being manipulated, he turns on his masters. In truth, the assassinations are murders and the mystical necessity merely asserted, unbelievably I might add. But Wanted is very much about badassness being sexy and cool. This is silly, which is why good performances and competent camera work and good production end up being worthless.

Walter White's descent is not pleasant like a Sunday drive. It is intense like a roller coaster ride. Walter is going to die of cancer (writing it out permanently instead of giving him a remission would severely undercut the story.) The question is, what kind of life would he have led?

Walter decided that material success, and power, were the most important parts of his legacy. But even if he were to become the new Gus Fring before he died, his legacy would merely be money and blood. The years he spent as a self-despising teacher with health insurance for a sick son were his real triumph, not a romantic victory over enemies, but over self-interest and drudgery and time. He was once a successful father, but now he's led his surrogate son Jesse into murder. Could there be any greater failure as a father?

The reason we care is because fundamentally this is very much like real life, it's just amped up. Beneath all the superficial melodrama, we recognize something of ourselves and our lives. Walter's choice to put money (that he couldn't even spend!) above everything else is a temptation thrust upon us all. Poverty is never too poor to buy unhappiness, and we know it. We too wonder what kind of life we'll have led, what legacy we'll leave, if any.
 
Also, let's face it. No one is engaged by a bad guy turning good, unless it's in the last 10-15 minutes of a long cinematic conflict, like Vader turning on the Emperor in Jedi, to return to the Star Wars subject
Oh I don't know; Damar's journey from thug to murderer to drunk to dictator to rebel to hero is one of the best bits of DS9 for me.
An even better example is Bialar Crais on Farscape. The journey his character goes through is one of the most interesting aspects of the series. I'm a big fan of redemption themes (when done right), so I completely disagree with "no one is engaged by a bad guy turning good" suggestion. I think fans of Farscape, Lost, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (I wouldn't know personally, but I think that's what Angel goes through) to name just a few would agree with me.

There is no appeal for me.
There's no pleasing you anyways. ;)
 
He didn't turn evil but super paramedic Monte "Doc" Parker losing it on Third Watch. To the point where he shot a Fire Captain and was heading towards suicide by cop when Sully talked him out.

But the moment that is still champion of good guy doing a very bad thing is Magnum and Ric murdering the Soviet Agent Ivan on Magnum PI
 
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