Good Behind the Scenes Books

[SteveJRogers]

I don't grok your point about "the more passionate, and at times promotional statements from the surrounding time that the things being discussed were active concerns." There's little promotional or passionate about shooting schedules and daily production reports after all.

I was talking about statements by people about others and situations.

Saying positive things about a set, directors, producers and fellow cast members for say a long form magazine article, BTS book, podcast, convention panel, anytime up to a few years after production ended is one thing.

Essentially you might not be the type to burn bridges when you still want gainful employment in the industry and/or there is potential to work with the same personnel or associates of their’s (friends, family, etc) down the line.

Not that mutual adoration society circle jerks are to be taken as insincere, but my point was that there probably is more sincerity in someone’s statement about others, and their work environment, when there are no longer potential scenarios of long term working relationships with them.

 

[SteveJRogers]

But like I mentioned about where exactly in a room 9-year old me was when I watched a baseball go through Bill Buckner’s legs, yes the lack of photo or video evidence that the TV was moved to a different section of the room a few years later, instead of “Dude, it was there all along since the family moved in a year or so before 1986” is the sort of unchecked statements, even if the other side is presented by another quoted piece, that oral histories do play fast and loose with.

 

[Just a Bill]

But like I mentioned about where exactly in a room 9-year old me was when I watched a baseball go through Bill Buckner’s legs

I suppose it's your own personal example of the Mandela Effect. These are interesting. I never thought The Berenstain Bears was spelled Berenstein (and there seems to be a straightforward explanation for that one), but I was surprised to learn that the Fruits of the Loom apparently never spilled out of a cornucopia; and to this day I still feel confident about being taught in grade school that Eli Whitney was a black man.

 

[SteveJRogers]

I suppose it's your own personal example of the Mandela Effect. These are interesting. I never thought The Berenstain Bears was spelled Berenstein (and there seems to be a straightforward explanation for that one), but I was surprised to learn that the Fruits of the Loom apparently never spilled out of a cornucopia; and to this day I still feel confident about being taught in grade school that Eli Whitney was a black man.

Oh, speaking of baseball, just realized a great analogy that Maurice could retort as a more relevant point to this thread than where in his living room a random 9-year old Met fan watched a World Series game 40 years ago.

Reading a book on the 1998 Yankees, and they are telling the story of David Wells hurling a perfect game the afternoon following a long night of drinking until the wee hours.

The book explains that he was at Saturday Night Live the night before for their season finale, and he wound up with Jimmy Fallon at the post show party, and kept going and going.

Now, Wells’ Perfecto was on a Sunday afternoon, May 17th to be exact. BUT SNL’s season wrapped the week BEFORE on May 9th (S23 Ep 20 David Duchovny with Puff Daddy and Jimmy Page), and NO WAY is anyone involved with that institution sticking around NYC for a week to be at a season wrap party held at the same time an episode wrap party does (1am Sunday morning)!

Also, while Fallon also does have a rep of being a big social drinker, he was not working for SNL in the spring of 1998! In fact, he debuted in September 1998, the start of the following season!

So…yeah…no Fallon, no SNL wrap party…ok, great story Boomer, but not legit…at all!

 

[willa6276m]

The Fifty Year Mission was mentioned only briefly in this thread. Can I get opinions on it please? Is it just page after page of interview quotes? Does it have any structure? I'm mainly interested in Shatner if that makes a difference. Does it have quotes by him? Or just about him?

 

[SteveJRogers]

The Fifty Year Mission was mentioned only briefly in this thread. Can I get opinions on it please? Is it just page after page of interview quotes? Does it have any structure? I'm mainly interested in Shatner if that makes a difference. Does it have quotes by him? Or just about him?

Oral history, so yeah to page after page of quoted paragraphs, with occasional narrative segues linking everything

Its, at least the first 25 Years, chronological through productions history (Cage, TOS, TAS, various relaunch ideas including Phase II, TOS movies), but with a big chapter after TOS Season three on 1970s fandom, and officially licensed books and other merch.

Shatner is in the mix of people frequently used. Listening to the audio book version though, so no idea if the authors got to speak with him, or if his passages are all from his books, interviews and such.

 

[willa6276m]

Oral history, so yeah to page after page of quoted paragraphs, with occasional narrative segues linking everything

Its, at least the first 25 Years, chronological through productions history (Cage, TOS, TAS, various relaunch ideas including Phase II, TOS movies), but with a big chapter after TOS Season three on 1970s fandom, and officially licensed books and other merch.

Shatner is in the mix of people frequently used. Listening to the audio book version though, so no idea if the authors got to speak with him, or if his passages are all from his books, interviews and such.

Thanks very much.

 

[Maurice]

Apply the usual caveats about oral history: as recalled and as told by are very subjective. Useful and entertaining to be sure, but squishy when it comes to accurate details.

Example:

DEBORAH ARAKELIAN​

John Belushi was on the set one day studying Shatner. He did a brilliant Shatner imitation on Saturday Night Live. He was perfecting it. He was just sitting there watching Shatner. I said to the associate producer, “Don't let him go because The Blues Brothers just played the wrap party for Laverne & Shirley and I wanted to get them for our wrap party” so I dropped everything and ran over, and Belushi had gone. They let him go and that night he died.

The Fifty Year Mission: The Complete, Uncensored, Unauthorized Oral History of Star Trek: The First 25 Years (2016) pages 414-415

And fact checked…

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Article version.

 

[SteveJRogers]

Apply the usual caveats about oral history: as recalled and as told by are very subjective. Useful and entertaining to be sure, but squishy when it comes to accurate details.

Example:


And fact checked…

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Article version.

Speaking of David Wells like partiers…though I guess there haven’t been any suggestions of Wells and non-alcohol based mind altering social substances, or even performance enhancing ones…that I know of anyway

 

[SteveJRogers]

Apply the usual caveats about oral history: as recalled and as told by are very subjective. Useful and entertaining to be sure, but squishy when it comes to accurate details.

Example:


And fact checked…

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Article version.

Yup, this book goes into John’s final days in great detail, including known celebs he was with, and the suppliers of what killed him. No Trek set references

https://www.amazon.com/Blues-Brothers-Friendship-American-Classic/dp/0802160980

 

[SteveJRogers]

Apply the usual caveats about oral history: as recalled and as told by are very subjective. Useful and entertaining to be sure, but squishy when it comes to accurate details.

FWIW, just recalled another example of why oral accounts “from those who were there” aren’t to be taken with greater weight than others

Listening to a Scrubs episode rewatching podcast where two main cast members, Zach Braff and Donald Faison were the hosts.

I forget which one, but its a season opener, and they have published author, including a book of analytical essays about the show, on the show.

The guy, Shea Serrano, runs down a few major storylines and episodes from that season, and Braff acts the opposite of the Shatner “GET A LIFE” sketch, where he’s amazed at what Serrano just rattled off, as if it was all obscured filler episodes and lines that only an uber fan would even recall.

And what he said is actually all generally accepted, and known, by even causal fans of the show! Yet Braff treated Serrano like a Rain Man savant for remembering common knowledge stuff!

Point is more, don’t expect those who did it as a job to always retain, or be aware of what they did being considered being, good enough to be remembered/acknowledged, for lack of something better (ie besides standing up for beleaguered work, or work obscured by time)

Never mind that its painfully obvious that even on projects, like reviewing and discussing episodic television, where, at least a little, research leg work is sometimes implied, many people just think showing up is enough “prep work!”

 

[Mudd]

Probably for the best. 1987 TNG would've probably ending up producing something as insulting as "Code of Honor".

I read the script, years ago. It's better than all but a handful of produced TNG episodes in the first two years.

Would have been a different show.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Honestly, the best parts of most of the more detailed BTS books are reading actual production documents. I take most of the human accounts with a grain of salt. Even the Solow / Justman book was filled with them creating conversations that were geared to entertain. They're not word for word, that would be impossible. And every year you're separated from an event, the less accurate the memory becomes. I like them for the "close enough to give me insight" aspect, but I never take it as gospel. And Solow clearly had his own axe to grind.

The Cushman books are the worst offenders because for the first two seasons anyway. Roddenberry had his people do everything in memos. He had all of the facts right effing there. No need to make anything up. He'd have totally fascinating books based on that stuff alone. But those are still masterworks compared to his Irwin Allen volumes. Especially is Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea books. Large type, a lot of stuff taken from a fan website that I can read for free, and bad puns.

 

[SteveJRogers]

Apply the usual caveats about oral history: as recalled and as told by are very subjective. Useful and entertaining to be sure, but squishy when it comes to accurate details.

Example:


And fact checked…

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Article version.

Just heard an extremely egregious one in the second volume of 50 Year Mission. Not as flagrantly bad as “Belushi was on the set days before his passing” but it is an “OMG WHO IS EDITING THIS! WHY ARE THEY LETTING THESE PEOPLE JUST SAY INHERENTLY ERRORED INFORMATION LIKE THIS WITHOUT AN AUTHOR’S CLARIFYING NOTE” error

Shatner is being quoted about Kirk’s death in Generations, and says he’s probably the only actor who had portrayed a fictional character through various stages of their formative years, until their ultimate passing.

Never mind Spock in Wrath of Khan, but ummmm…Al Pacino as Michael Corleone had done late 1970s Michael, and Michael’s literal demise in Godfather III by the time Undiscovered Country was in production!

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Just heard an extremely egregious one in the second volume of 50 Year Mission. Not as flagrantly bad as “Belushi was on the set days before his passing” but it is an “OMG WHO IS EDITING THIS! WHY ARE THEY LETTING THESE PEOPLE JUST SAY INHERENTLY ERRORED INFORMATION LIKE THIS WITHOUT AN AUTHOR’S CLARIFYING NOTE” error

Shatner is being quoted about Kirk’s death in Generations, and says he’s probably the only actor who had portrayed a fictional character through various stages of their formative years, until their ultimate passing.

Never mind Spock in Wrath of Khan, but ummmm…Al Pacino as Michael Corleone had done late 1970s Michael, and Michael’s literal demise in Godfather III by the time Undiscovered Country was in production!

Reminds me of "Star Trek was the first show to get a second pilot green lit", and "Star Trek was the first show to feature an interracial kiss", and probably other things.

 

[Maurice]

That unprecedented second pilot rubbish is just that: rubbish.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Just heard an extremely egregious one in the second volume of 50 Year Mission. Not as flagrantly bad as “Belushi was on the set days before his passing” but it is an “OMG WHO IS EDITING THIS! WHY ARE THEY LETTING THESE PEOPLE JUST SAY INHERENTLY ERRORED INFORMATION LIKE THIS WITHOUT AN AUTHOR’S CLARIFYING NOTE” error

Shatner is being quoted about Kirk’s death in Generations, and says he’s probably the only actor who had portrayed a fictional character through various stages of their formative years, until their ultimate passing.

Never mind Spock in Wrath of Khan, but ummmm…Al Pacino as Michael Corleone had done late 1970s Michael, and Michael’s literal demise in Godfather III by the time Undiscovered Country was in production!

That's the issue with oral histories. You're just transcribing memories and opinions of people who get things wrong. Either due to bad memory, faulty research, too much elaboration or an agenda.

Reminds me of "Star Trek was the first show to get a second pilot green lit", and "Star Trek was the first show to feature an interracial kiss", and probably other things.

Yeah all that "Star Trek had to be the first at all this shit" that drives me nuts. God forbid people can't just say "man what a great show that got popular after the fact and inspired people almost accidentally." Instead of making it some unprecedented show that is vital to the future of humanity.

 

[willa6276m]

I am a big fan of William Shatner's two Trek memoirs, Star Trek Memories and Star Trek Movie Memories. Now, in candor, I take Shatner's comments in the books with a heavy grain of salt. Much of what he says is obviously exaggerated or incorrect. ...

What does Shatner say please that is "obviously exaggerated or incorrect"?

 

[Tallguy]

What does Shatner say please that is "obviously exaggerated or incorrect"?

I'm going off the top of my head because it's been over twenty years since I read it, but Shatner makes a big deal about meeting the Apollo 11 crew while he was filming Star Trek in 1968 (Neil, Buzz, Mike) and that they were all huge Star Trek fans, blah blah blah. He contrasts it with July of 1969 watching the moon landing on a crappy TV, being out of work, divorced, and touring in a tiny trailer.

The 11 crew was not announced until January 1969 and they didn't know that 11 was going to be the moon landing until Apollo 10 was successful in May of 1969.

I think he also retells some stories that other Star Trek luminaries have told (Bob Justman for one) but makes himself the main character. (Going to Harlan Ellison's house to get him to finish City on the Edge of Forever.)

Again, 20+ year old memory. Someone can, well, fact check me.

They're entertaining reads and if the stories about his interactions with Nichols and Doohan while writing the book are made up to be OVERLY self-deprecating I'll be very disappointed.

---

Has anyone mentioned how both Cushman and Solow / Justman completely mangle the story of Roddenberry and Alexander Courage? How Courage was so offended by the royalty situation over the theme song that he never worked on Star Trek again worked on every season of Star Trek and many of the movies?

My favorite bit about that is that Cushman credits Courage's music used in A Private Little War to Fred Steiner and says it was specifically composed for the last scene. Journalism at it's finest!

(I'll ride my hobby horse out of here.)

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Has anyone mentioned how both Cushman and Solow / Justman completely mangle the story of Roddenberry and Alexander Courage? How Courage was so offended by the royalty situation over the theme song that he never worked on Star Trek again worked on every season of Star Trek and many of the movies?

I recall Courage saying that he wouldn't have minded sharing the royalties so much if Gene had worked with him to craft a decent lyric. But Gene's lyrics didn't even fit the music correctly, and on top of that they were phrased in a way that any songwriter could tell you was awkward to sing. Thus Courage considered the lyrics slapdash and a lazy money grab.

Also, he only left Star Trek to take a film job on Doctor Doolittle, not out of spite. As seen in the fact that he came back afterward like you said.