Ghostly Encounters

[Mr Awe]

^That is a stance I absolutely agree with! I felt it especially strongly during the recent FTL neutrino commotion. Though (rightly) cautious, I couldn't help but be excited at the possibility that we might be so wrong. What a thrill it would have been had those neutrinos actually been FTL!
I would be equally thrilled at an actual ghost or spirit, because of all the magical ideas we possess, I think the one I most wish were true would be an afterlife. Actual evidence for any sort of spirit or energy, or that the consciousness could survive without the living brain would be glorious. As it stands now, I see no reason other than fear or comfort-seeking to believe in that.
The other biggie I would really like to see, and the one that seems to have the most going for it in terms of odds, is aliens. I don't think any of the UFO sightings or alien abduction stories are true (they're all far more easily explainable as everyday phenomena like we've been discussing), but it sure would be awesome if we found them, even if they're only bacteria!

ETA: And as if in response to the shaking up of Relativity by the FTL neutrinos, researchers may have spotted gravity waves! COOL! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19408363

Oh yeah, the potential FTL neutrino discovery was exciting. Perhaps a surprise nearly on the order of seeing a real ghost! Appropriate for a ghostly particle with nearly no mass!

But, I loved how the scientists handled it. They didn't announce it as a discovery but instead asked others to come in to try to figure out what mistake they could've made. Eventually, someone found the solution. But, that should be standard procedure anytime something extraordinary apparently occurs!

Agree that of the things you mention, alien life is the most likely. I wonder how different aliens would be if they were fairly similar to us except that they didn't have the fallible memories and perceptions that we have. Maybe they're no smarter but they never misremember, make things up, or incorrectly perceive things?

Mr Awe

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it's most appropriate, I think:

"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." — Marcello Truzzi​

 

[Lonemagpie]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it's most appropriate, I think:

"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." — Marcello Truzzi​

A phrase I've always hated - there's proof, and there's not proof. It's like "a little bit pregnant", no, you are or you aren't, yes or no - there's no "degree of"...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

He's talking about the mass of evidence, so there is a continuum.

 

[thestrangequark]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it's most appropriate, I think:

"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." — Marcello Truzzi​

A phrase I've always hated - there's proof, and there's not proof. It's like "a little bit pregnant", no, you are or you aren't, yes or no - there's no "degree of"...

I don't think it's about degree but proportion and quality of evidence. Gary7 and I discussed this a couple pages ago when I talked about the failings of anecdotal evidence. He came up with the example of a cat swimming in a pool, and he pointed out that it would be ridiculous to demand empirical evidence for this claim. This is true, of course.
It would be silly to demand empirical evidence for such a mundane claim as my friend telling me he went to a movie the night before. It would be reasonable to demand slightly more evidence for a slightly more unusual claim like a cat enjoying a swimming pool (and the evidence Gary gave was that there are programs to desensitize cats to water, which is sufficient). These claims don't make any new assumptions about reality, though. For truly extraordinary claims, using extraordinary in the scientific rather than colloquial sense of the word, the evidence must be proportionately extraordinary. This is why in medicine, UFOs, and supernatural phenomena anecdotal evidence just doesn't cut it. Some evidence is better than other evidence.

 

[JarodRussell]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it's most appropriate, I think:

"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." — Marcello Truzzi​

A phrase I've always hated - there's proof, and there's not proof. It's like "a little bit pregnant", no, you are or you aren't, yes or no - there's no "degree of"...

Hm... maybe he meant it like this... for example, proof of alien life:

1. find traces of bacteria on Mars
2. receive a transmission from beings from outer space
3. have a flying saucer land on Earth, with aliens climbing out saying "Hello!"

All of these would be evidence, but No. 3 would be the most extraordinary one? Extraordinary as in awesome?

 

[thestrangequark]

^That is a stance I absolutely agree with! I felt it especially strongly during the recent FTL neutrino commotion. Though (rightly) cautious, I couldn't help but be excited at the possibility that we might be so wrong. What a thrill it would have been had those neutrinos actually been FTL!
I would be equally thrilled at an actual ghost or spirit, because of all the magical ideas we possess, I think the one I most wish were true would be an afterlife. Actual evidence for any sort of spirit or energy, or that the consciousness could survive without the living brain would be glorious. As it stands now, I see no reason other than fear or comfort-seeking to believe in that.
The other biggie I would really like to see, and the one that seems to have the most going for it in terms of odds, is aliens. I don't think any of the UFO sightings or alien abduction stories are true (they're all far more easily explainable as everyday phenomena like we've been discussing), but it sure would be awesome if we found them, even if they're only bacteria!

ETA: And as if in response to the shaking up of Relativity by the FTL neutrinos, researchers may have spotted gravity waves! COOL! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19408363

Oh yeah, the potential FTL neutrino discovery was exciting. Perhaps a surprise nearly on the order of seeing a real ghost! Appropriate for a ghostly particle with nearly no mass!

But, I loved how the scientists handled it. They didn't announce it as a discovery but instead asked others to come in to try to figure out what mistake they could've made. Eventually, someone found the solution. But, that should be standard procedure anytime something extraordinary apparently occurs!

Possibly the biggest red flag that something may be pseudoscience is when the "scientist" does not do this! People have so many wrong ideas about what science is and how it works that it at times depresses me. Sagan said (and may have been quoting someone else when he said it, though I can't remember for sure) that "science is an institution of change." It is the most open-minded approach to life, and yet people think scientists stubborn and closed-minded because they are critical.

I find it rather telling that I have never been accused of arrogance or patronizing behavior online or IRL except in threads like this that deal with aspects of psychology or skepticism, where I actually have knowledge and evidence to back me up. People easily conflate evidence and knowledge with arrogance, but I would not presume to make unfounded claims or definitive judgements on topics about which I am uninformed. I think it is not the skeptical viewpoint that is arrogant, however, but the believers'. Science is the greatest lesson in humility humankind has ever faced. It has taught us that we are not the center of the solar system, nor the center of the universe -- that the world was not created for us. It has taught us that we are not unique in the animal kingdom in possessing intelligence, conscious awareness, or emotion. It has taught us that our thoughts and feeling are not entirely under our own control. It has taught us that we are not only fallible, but immensely so, our every thought and observation subject to misperception and to contamination by our own biases, prejudices, and inability to always think logically.

I think we should revel in being proved wrong, because it means there is an opportunity for learning and growth, yet too many people react to evidence counter to their prior beliefs by simply digging their heels in further. I have been accused of arrogance in this thread, but given evidence I would be positively thrilled to admit that I am wrong -- though I see no evidence forthcoming. And I can think of no more arrogant assertion than us being more than what we are, and the facts not being the facts because they don't fit with our own ideas of reality.

Agree that of the things you mention, alien life is the most likely. I wonder how different aliens would be if they were fairly similar to us except that they didn't have the fallible memories and perceptions that we have. Maybe they're no smarter but they never misremember, make things up, or incorrectly perceive things?

Mr Awe

I bet they would be fascinated by us!

 

[Mr Awe]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it's most appropriate, I think:

"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." — Marcello Truzzi
​

A phrase I've always hated - there's proof, and there's not proof. It's like "a little bit pregnant", no, you are or you aren't, yes or no - there's no "degree of"...

In statistics there's definitely a degree of evidence. There's a measured probability that you are making a mistake in your conclusion. That probability can be anywhere from high to low depending on the data gathered.

Although, there's really so such thing as proof in statistics, just really low probabilities of error. So, perhaps I'd change "proof" to "evidence".

Mr Awe

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There are multiple meanings of the word proof. Which one is intended in this case is perfectly clear from the context.

 

[Lonemagpie]

There are multiple meanings of the word proof.

My favourite's the one preceded by the words "hundred percent"...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There are multiple meanings of the word proof.

My favourite's the one preceded by the words "hundred percent"...

Yeah, there's nothing like mathematical proof.

Unfortunately, even mathematicians and computer scientists make mistakes. That's why extremely complicated mathematical proofs are vetted for extensive periods of time before being accepted. Even years after publication, errors have been discovered in what were at one point thought to be error-free mathematical proofs.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Since we're on the topic of paranormal phenomena, I wonder what everyone thinks about psychics and mediums. There's this reality show on cable (but I forget the network and the title) featuring a feisty medium lady with a New Jersey accent who claims to be able to communicate with dead people. She talks to the survivors (spouses, parents, children, friends, etc.) and tells them some familiar things that she couldn't have possibly known about their deceased loved ones.

What say you?

 

[Lonemagpie]

There are multiple meanings of the word proof.

My favourite's the one preceded by the words "hundred percent"...

Yeah, there's nothing like mathematical proof.
.

*Not* the sort of proof I had in mind... Unless mathematics comes in bottles round your way...

 

[Lonemagpie]

Since we're on the topic of paranormal phenomena, I wonder what everyone thinks about psychics and mediums. There's this reality show on cable (but I forget the network and the title) featuring a feisty medium lady with a New Jersey accent who claims to be able to communicate with dead people. She talks to the survivors (spouses, parents, children, friends, etc.) and tells them some familiar things that she couldn't have possibly known about their deceased loved ones.

What say you?

Sometimes - every February 29th, say - I feel generous and in the mood to believe the possibility that a very very few might *actually* be telepaths, who secretly read people's minds for that info.

But every single one I've ever seen anywhere is one of the other sort- a cold-reading charlatan. Some of whom genuinely believe they have supernatural powers, and if that makes people feel better, then OK - but the vast majority of whom are deliberate fraudsters out to exploit the vulnerable for profit. This latter category includes every single one I've ever seen on a TV show, bar none.

 

[thestrangequark]

Since we're on the topic of paranormal phenomena, I wonder what everyone thinks about psychics and mediums. There's this reality show on cable (but I forget the network and the title) featuring a feisty medium lady with a New Jersey accent who claims to be able to communicate with dead people. She talks to the survivors (spouses, parents, children, friends, etc.) and tells them some familiar things that she couldn't have possibly known about their deceased loved ones.

What say you?

Sometimes - every February 29th, say - I feel generous and in the mood to believe the possibility that a very very few might *actually* be telepaths, who secretly read people's minds for that info.

But every single one I've ever seen anywhere is one of the other sort- a cold-reading charlatan. Some of whom genuinely believe they have supernatural powers, and if that makes people feel better, then OK - but the vast majority of whom are deliberate fraudsters out to exploit the vulnerable for profit. This latter category includes every single one I've ever seen on a TV show, bar none.

Agreed in every count. There is absolutely no good evidence of psychic powers, and every feat accomplished by any psychic can, and has also been, accomplished by good mentalists. The self-deluded are pitiable but forgivable, whilst the charlatans are the lowest of the low. They are cruel, disgusting, unscrupulous scum in my opinion. One of the most vile examples is Sylvia Browne, who can be seen here lying to two grieving parents whose son had been abducted:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuPadpaTwKY[/yt]

James Randi, the magician, MacArthur Grant Winner, and head of the James Randi Educational foundation, who is interviewed in the above video, used to offer a Million Dollar Psychic Challenge, wherein anyone who could demonstrate under mutually agreed upon experimental conditions that they possessed any kind of psychic ability would win a million bucks. They offered the challenge for over a decade and had thousands of applicants and tests. No one won. Eventually he discontinued the challenge because the disturbing number of truly mentally ill people who applied -- he felt it was dangerous to them. He instead decided to go after the big frauds like Browne.
He also famously made a fool of Yuri Geller along with Johnny Carson and exposed the fraudulent "faith healer" Peter Popoff (The Carson bit starts around 5:50). The Psychic Surgery bit at the end is especially entertaining:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo[/yt]

 

[Gryffindorian]

That Uri Geller was laughable. He looked like he was about to shit his pants on the Tonight Show.

 

[cooleddie74]

That Uri Geller clip is legendary. When I was a kid my mom and dad mentioned it on occasion as one of the great highlights of The Tonight Show and poked fun at how Carson put him on the spot and helped expose his trickery. That footage is almost painful to watch even after all these decades.

 

[thestrangequark]

^It is funny! If you really want to see someone grasping, here's the repellent Sylvia Brown again, because the Not Dead Dead Boy has not been her only major fuck up:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1b8vxUQhz4[/yt]

I actually love mentalists. They are talented, entertaining, and the psychology and neurology they exploit is utterly fascinating -- so long as they are truthful about their deceit. I haven't seen much of Derren Brown, but I really liked his quote, "I am often dishonest in my techniques, but always honest about my dishonesty," and I love this video of him fucking with Simon Pegg's mind:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg[/yt]

 

[cooleddie74]

Penn and Teller have done a masterful job of exposing these people on their BULLSHIT! show, and Penn by himself has really laid into the charlatans.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vHS0dZl3OU[/yt]

 

[Lonemagpie]

^ and with added Mythbuster for extra fun!

Occasionally I see flyers in town for psychic nights at local pubs, usually with the phrase "TV psychic" even though I've never heard of any of them (they're probably faking that as well!) - and I sometimes get tempted to go along and wind them up... But then I remember I can't afford the bail money for afterwards!