Jellico was a loser. Riker saved the Federation from the Borg, with a single ship. Jellico assuming command and throwing his weight around the way he did was symptomatic of insecurity with regard to his formidable and far more experienced senior staff and certainly would have engendered no respect. He was pretty close to incompetent as a commander.
"Getting it done" vs. "Making it so"?
- Thread starter Enterprise1981
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Plus, Jellico finally got Troi out of the stupid catsuit and into a Starfleet uniform (which only served to increase her hotness, in my opinion).
quite a lot of people around here who love to subordinate to authority. well, beta-males are the majority, and the natural order of things wouldn't work w/o them. yep, the best is they let other people do the thinking for them, that's what hierarchy is there for.
i started to like riker when he kicked the ass of that flatulent, but insecure jellico. unlike jellico in their dialogue, riker could substantiate his opinion.
i started to like riker when he kicked the ass of that flatulent, but insecure jellico. unlike jellico in their dialogue, riker could substantiate his opinion.
Nice job insulting everyone's manhood who happens to disagree with you. Thankfully I have no manhood to insult, seeing as I'm female. 
Maybe it's not for you, and you shouldn't join the military, but military discipline is not the same thing as being in the civilian world and you can't expect it to be a democracy. Sometimes Jellico was a jerk--I won't argue that the BEST leaders know how to get loyalty without acting like that...however, I think he was more effective at making the tough calls than Picard could be. He was kinda like Sisko, but without the social skills.
Then again, 24th-century Starfleet, under Picard, would almost have you think it WAS a civilian ship, not military. And if that's what you think Starfleet is, I can understand why you might favor Picard. But still, insulting the manhood of everyone who disagrees with you really isn't the way to go to prove your point.
Maybe it's not for you, and you shouldn't join the military, but military discipline is not the same thing as being in the civilian world and you can't expect it to be a democracy. Sometimes Jellico was a jerk--I won't argue that the BEST leaders know how to get loyalty without acting like that...however, I think he was more effective at making the tough calls than Picard could be. He was kinda like Sisko, but without the social skills.
Then again, 24th-century Starfleet, under Picard, would almost have you think it WAS a civilian ship, not military. And if that's what you think Starfleet is, I can understand why you might favor Picard. But still, insulting the manhood of everyone who disagrees with you really isn't the way to go to prove your point.
My question was a question of which command style would you use. As unprofessional as Riker and LaForge were being, Riker could have put in for a transfer the second Necheyev announced Jellico was taking over the center seat considering that Riker once held the rank of captain and during that time, saved civilization as we know it. He still carried out the decisions of the CO even if he did step too far out of line for Jellico's liking.
Not being as compliant as Borg drones is hardly grounds for being black-balled out of the service.
The phrase "Git 'er done" does come to mind. Now that I think of it, "Make it so" was uttered a lot of more often by folks other than Picard in command situtions, but you never heard "Get it done" in those exact words.
Kirk in "The Corbomite Maneuver": I will keep that mind, Mister Bailey... when this becomes a democracy.
Riker in "The Best of Both Worlds": This is our only chance to destroy them. If they go back into warp, our weapon useless.
Shelby: We'll sabotage them again if we have to.
Riker: We can't maintain power, we don't have the time. (To Worf) Prepare to fire.
Shelby: At least consult with Starfleet Command. Get Admiral Hanson on subspace.
Riker: Belay that order, Lieutenant! (To Shelby) There isn't time!
^ Would Jellico have been as patient?
Picard and Jellico were both great captains. At the end of the day they got the job done.
So... you like the wussy approach because most men aren't real men??
Yeah, and if he pulled the records and saw the number of times she tried to take over the ship, go back to the Collective, and commit other treacherous acts--whooooooo boy. There'd be hell to pay for Janeway!
(Oh my...that's even more fun than imagining Jellico v. Picard--Jellico v. Janeway. He'd rip her so many new ones there wouldn't be anywhere left by the end!)
Jellico was a dangerous unhinged lunatic. I don't see how playing a cool Picard like manner would have resulted in any sort of great strategic defeat for the Federation. Jellico's feigned insansity and extremely reckless mining tactic could have precipitated the very conflict the Federation sought to avoid.
In the TNG timeframe a single ship, the Nebula class Phoenix was able to wage more or less a one man war successfully until the Enterprise showed up. Recapturing a small handful of systems on the border would have been easy goals in the ethical and publically supported response flowing from a just war philosophy.
If the Cardassian invasion fleet was so formidable why would the loss of three Galor's have stopped them so easily? Why the hell are the Cardassians even considering war with the Federation, a space power clearly their better in pre-Dominion times?
Do these star systems have some resource that cannot be obtained via exploration or trade? At least Romulan territorial ambition is better written and plausibly obtainable.
Primitive Jellico type thinking is not the key to the survial and continued evolution of the human race. Q chose to haze the Enterpise-D over the Cairo for a very obvious reasons.
In the TNG timeframe a single ship, the Nebula class Phoenix was able to wage more or less a one man war successfully until the Enterprise showed up. Recapturing a small handful of systems on the border would have been easy goals in the ethical and publically supported response flowing from a just war philosophy.
If the Cardassian invasion fleet was so formidable why would the loss of three Galor's have stopped them so easily? Why the hell are the Cardassians even considering war with the Federation, a space power clearly their better in pre-Dominion times?
Do these star systems have some resource that cannot be obtained via exploration or trade? At least Romulan territorial ambition is better written and plausibly obtainable.
Primitive Jellico type thinking is not the key to the survial and continued evolution of the human race. Q chose to haze the Enterpise-D over the Cairo for a very obvious reasons.
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I'm just curious about the age breakdown of those who prefer Jellico and those who prefer Picard. I'll bet we older folks prefer Jellico far more than the younger folks do. The idea that everyone gets a say and that superiors have to explain themselves (indeed, that they aren't "superiors" at all) is a new (and to my mind disturbing) development in the past 15 years.
I don't think democracy and accountability are so recent concepts as you think... but anyway...
I would perhaps normally find it a bit disturbing that so many people seem to love authoritarianism. But in this case, it's probably more because many viewers were just fed up with the corny everyone-gets-along dynamic of the TNG crew, and enjoyed someone ruffling a few feathers.
Or at least that's what I like to believe. On the other hand, it is quite likely that most people simply prefer authoritarian leadership.
I think it's possible for there to be a compromise between styles. That's kinda what I see in Sisko...he has social skills and understands the importance of building trust, but he can bring down the hammer when necessary.
Still, it's important to remember the concept of situational leadership. Picard's collaborative style is probably appropriate for an exploratory and scientific endeavor, maybe even for diplomatic ones--but it is not appropriate for war.
Well people are forgetting how very "Jellico-like" Picard was in the 1st and even 2nd season of TNG. He was a stodgy old fart that didn't like kids or families and often was cold and professional with Riker and the rest. Infact Picard was more distant then Jellico was, at least Jellico tried some attempts at banal conversation and talked about his kids drawings. Picard didn't start to really become a fun guy that you want to explore the galaxy with until Guinan showed up and then in the 3rd season.
So if Jellico spent more time with the crew, after awhile he too would have likely mellowed. If you are a boss and once you start to know people and spent a couple years with them, you by nature will ease up on the hard assness without realizing it.
So if Jellico spent more time with the crew, after awhile he too would have likely mellowed. If you are a boss and once you start to know people and spent a couple years with them, you by nature will ease up on the hard assness without realizing it.
Not necessarily. Try telling that to MY boss. On the other hand, I would say he grossly overestimates his command abilities.
Point being, Picard was just as stern and cold as Jellico in the early part of TNG, if not more cold then Jellico. Remember how he told Riker to manually connect the saucer section with the hull in the pilot episode? Picard simply expected it to be done. But Picard was never really an asshole, while Jellico tended to be.
These Jellico vs. Picard threads are always the same, Jellico nearly always gets the bulk of the support. It's almost as if people use it to bash Picard and TNG, because a hardball character showed up and acted like a dick to the crew, thereby supposedly exposing them for what they are are, ...touchy feely do gooders.
These Jellico vs. Picard threads are always the same, Jellico nearly always gets the bulk of the support. It's almost as if people use it to bash Picard and TNG, because a hardball character showed up and acted like a dick to the crew, thereby supposedly exposing them for what they are are, ...touchy feely do gooders.
Here's the thing with the consensus versus dictation style debate, Jellico regardless of style is NOT a good commander/manager, or at least demonstrated improper decision making at times. Yes, he needed Enterprise ready for combat. Yes, he needed Data and Geordi to overhaul the ship. Yes, he needed extra drills. However, it is asinine to completely alter the shift rotation while in the middle of this. It adds completely unnecessary complications to an already rushed situation. Riker was correct to put this off until notifying the captain (who should have known already) of the situation. Jellico had an improper reaction of making Data his de facto first officer even before he made it official. He took it personal.
I don't know how many people here have training or experience in project or crisis management, but in such a crisis you have two directives. 1) Do everything you can to prepare for the crisis, starting with the most crucial or time consuming parts first. 2) Delay anything that (while it may slightly improve productivity or better suit your management style, including personnel) is unnecessary to the crisis until it's over or there is nothing else for you to prepare.
I don't know how many people here have training or experience in project or crisis management, but in such a crisis you have two directives. 1) Do everything you can to prepare for the crisis, starting with the most crucial or time consuming parts first. 2) Delay anything that (while it may slightly improve productivity or better suit your management style, including personnel) is unnecessary to the crisis until it's over or there is nothing else for you to prepare.
This very episode is on Sci-Fi channel right now.
That's pretty much it. I think it's a reaction to Picard's higher expectations from the crew and himself, from Starfleet's in the 24th century, from Star Trek period. It dares us try harder, take more responsibility, think further outside the box, accomplish more, be better. And that rattles us because it's hard, dangerous, and well more than we're used to.
Then an episode like this comes along that really drops the ball with the side daring you to do better and the opening for attack is mighty sweet. I told you they're just soft head-in-the-clouds weaklings! Now hard-ass, he's real. ...So was Genghis Khan but I wouldn't want him leading a modern-day army.
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