I agree, Georgiou is as much an Admiral as Booker is a Lieutenant.
Spoilers Georgiou Season 3 Rank
- Thread starter trek.punk
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Yeah, like "Lt. Booker", everyone needed to be in uniform as the UE officers were suspicious of them being pirates or something.
If it was a generational ship, though, I would expect next to no one wearing a uniform, a la E², especially on a 900-to-700-year-old ship.
If it was a generational ship, though, I would expect next to no one wearing a uniform, a la E², especially on a 900-to-700-year-old ship.
I just wonder about the mechanism by which she eventually agrees to undress. (A heavy excavator with bolted-on forcefield pliers, perhaps?)
Polite of her not to pull fake rank on Saru when things got heated up, BTW. So I also wonder what Ndoye thought about all that.
She certainly didn't hold back when dressing up. That's a full four-laurel Admiral there, a Capo di tutti Capi...
Timo Saloniemi
Polite of her not to pull fake rank on Saru when things got heated up, BTW. So I also wonder what Ndoye thought about all that.
She certainly didn't hold back when dressing up. That's a full four-laurel Admiral there, a Capo di tutti Capi...
Timo Saloniemi
Agreed -- I thought something similar. I guess it's just possible that Ndoye wouldn't be aware of the exact significance of what Georgiou was wearing but it would certainly seem odd.
Equally, for a ship that had (allegedly) effectively become a self-contained generational ship, what on earth (no pun intended) would be the point of continuing to have any flag officer role anyway?!
The whole thing struck me as just yet another example of the writers coming up with something they thought was quirky and funny for a character to do (with a couple of cute throw-away lines) but without actually thinking through the obvious implications of those actions in subsequent scenes. The argument with Saru was then written as if it was just the "normal" Georgiou and no thought given to the any idea that this might have been inappropriate if she really *was* supposed to be an admiral and that this could, in turn, look suspicious to Ndoye; either that or they just ignored any potential problem and wrote what happened next as if the problem wasn't there because that's how they wanted this particular scene to play-out.
Yes, quite! Probably a bit over-the-top, given the circumstances...!
The only upside to all this (which was presumably the point of that particular bit of conflict) was for them to allow Saru an early opportunity to firmly establish himself and his authority as captain of Discovery. This part, I'm very glad they did. We were long over-due a non-human captain among main cast characters and I love Jones' very 'alien" portrayal of Saru. By and large, the character is generally well-written too.
Perhaps they might eventually address and explain the apparent inconsistencies about Georgiou -- but I'm not going to hold my breath while we wait...
I gather that in-universe, we should interpret this as Georgiou correctly reading the situation, understanding that the natives would not have the faintest idea of what the fancy costumes of the heroes really meant anyway, and making appropriate fun and mockery of the heroes' futile and unnecessary effort...
The Emperor certainly played her part in helping Saru assert his leadership - even if it took a bit of biting and kicking. As she enjoys pointing out, out of this bunch, she's not the stupid one; it was to her advantage that Saru emerged as a leader the crew and the Earthlings could look up to.
As for "eventually addressing", we can always and rather safely assume that Pike sorted it all out in that mysterious Ready Room meeting the camera never showed to us. If she remains a Commander, then that's either her proper Starfleet rank (and was all along, even when she masqueraded as Captain Georgiou), or a rank she now agrees to be addressed by because otherwise Pike will reach across time and space and do something so nasty even she won't enjoy it. If she doesn't remain a Commander but gets called something else, Saru may not have been privy to Pike's orders and will later learn better.
Timo Saloniemi
The Emperor certainly played her part in helping Saru assert his leadership - even if it took a bit of biting and kicking. As she enjoys pointing out, out of this bunch, she's not the stupid one; it was to her advantage that Saru emerged as a leader the crew and the Earthlings could look up to.
As for "eventually addressing", we can always and rather safely assume that Pike sorted it all out in that mysterious Ready Room meeting the camera never showed to us. If she remains a Commander, then that's either her proper Starfleet rank (and was all along, even when she masqueraded as Captain Georgiou), or a rank she now agrees to be addressed by because otherwise Pike will reach across time and space and do something so nasty even she won't enjoy it. If she doesn't remain a Commander but gets called something else, Saru may not have been privy to Pike's orders and will later learn better.
Timo Saloniemi
It's certainly possible, as you note the naval and police commander ranks are not identical. The former roughly corresponds to a Chief Superintendant (or an RM Lieutenant Colonel) whereas a Met Commander splits the difference between a Colonel and a Brigadier operationally, while wearing an exclusive insignia that more closely maps as the nonexistant rank of Field Vice Marshall (equivalent or senior to a General) as the immediately senior rank more closely resembles the more elaborate Field Marshal rank than the Major General insignia that "should" designate that rank.
Speculatively, this is the equivalent of the TOS-era rank of Fleet Captain and designates captain rank officers holding delegated rather substantive authority.
If Earth had no record of the USS Discovery; what makes you think they had records of what a 23rd century 2258 starfleet uniform looked like?
If the generational ship had a specific mission then a flag officer overseeing it in some capacity would make sense.
Regardless, I think it played fine.
If Earth had no record of the USS Discovery; what makes you think they had records of what a 23rd century 2258 starfleet uniform looked like?
Well, it would look like the things these quaint folks wore, by default.
Which would be the sole rationale for Book and Georgiou having to wear the same thing. (Although of course Book only wore it because Burnham had a fetish, and Georgiou only out of a sense of humor.)Timo Saloniemi
If Earth had no record of the USS Discovery; what makes you think they had records of what a 23rd century 2258 starfleet uniform looked like?
They had no record of Discovery because it was super-duper classified. I might prefer it if they classified these godawful uniforms, but I don't think they have any plans to do so.
Records of the Discovery existing were not classified. The true manner of its *destruction"; as well as it's special propulsion system were what was classified.
If it's a generational ship, then none of these guys are Starfleet officers, and they were all playing make-believe. The Earth authorities might just assume that Georgiou was the former Captain retired to the rank of Admiral, or perhaps she held "authority" over the overall mission while Captain Saru had operational authority over the ship.
Most likely, they didn't bother to learn all the intricacies of 900-year-old badges in a most likely defunct organization. Alien standing in center of bridge talking to them = guy in charge. Woman arguing with him off to the side = some troublemaker, not worth their notice.
Over the top is pretty much her lane.
True... 
She's an interesting character. She doesn't share Federation ideals, and for damn sure won't be interested in restoring it, unless she were in charge. Seems like in season 2 she remained around because Section 31 entertained her, Leland pissed her off, and she could use S31 to keep an eye on Burnham who she still can't but think of as her adopted daughter, a replacement for the one she lost.
she might try to tempt Burnham onto whatever she will have planned but ultimately she's liberated now. She has an entirely new universe. In a universe lacking the most important mineral, she's got the keys to boat load full of the stuff, in a ship that can go anywhere, so she doesn't have to be in any hurry to leave. On the other hand, there is going to have to be a showdown between her and Saru. He can't let her check his authority, and she's used to timid kelpians for dinner (which he is anything but, now).
she might try to tempt Burnham onto whatever she will have planned but ultimately she's liberated now. She has an entirely new universe. In a universe lacking the most important mineral, she's got the keys to boat load full of the stuff, in a ship that can go anywhere, so she doesn't have to be in any hurry to leave. On the other hand, there is going to have to be a showdown between her and Saru. He can't let her check his authority, and she's used to timid kelpians for dinner (which he is anything but, now).
How so? Janeway never gave random alien passengers Starfleet rank in the main timeline, but apparently this was within her powers nevertheless, as evidenced by alternate timelines. She could have gone generational by evoking rarely used and exceptional clauses in making bystanders Starfleet, or she could have had available a perfectly regular mechanism of training volunteers as Starfleet officers and crew. That she didn't turn the Maquis Starfleet outright or even after seven years was political, and a decision she might have reversed later on.
Interpretations also vary on whether she ever promoted anybody (even Tuvok might have been a case of reapplying a pip she had torn off his collar in disgust earlier on), but nothing establishes she would have been unable to promote. And now it seems Saru can self-promote, adopting a fourth rank pit for himself after arrival in the 32nd century.
Timo Saloniemi
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Well, yeah, by the Laws of Theseus they would (hypothetically) all be Starfleet officers, field promoted by field promoted by field promoted officers in the Long, Long Ago. Janeway tossed some pips at convicted criminal Tom Paris, and some weird doo-dads at all the terrorists she let on board, and continued this practice well into the Shattered Timeline with Icheb and Naomi. In "Before and After", we meet Captain Chakotay, who presumably self-promoted himself (and tossed away the provisional stylie) after Janeway's death. So nothing new occurred or was implied in People of Earth that didn't also happen on Voyager in some fashion.
It's just the chain is so stretched and torn at this point, that the "real" V'draysh Starfleet probably wouldn't count them as members, and neither would their presumed-allies, the United Earth Defence Force.
It's just the chain is so stretched and torn at this point, that the "real" V'draysh Starfleet probably wouldn't count them as members, and neither would their presumed-allies, the United Earth Defence Force.
Didn't she also give a Starfleet rank to Neelix at some point? (I wouldn't know as I stopped watching ST: V after "The 37's", and I've seen a few episodes after that here an there, but nothing that would convince me to sit back down and watch the rest of it.)
No, Neelix never had a Starfleet rank. He is named the Federation Ambassador to the Delta Quadrant at the end of the series, though.
If you’ve the photos for “Forget Me Not” you know that the senior officers/bridge crew (+Georgiou) are in Saru’s ready room fo a lavish dinner. I’m wondering if official positions like CMO and chief engineer are going to be establish now that they are taking a bit of a break. I predict that Commander Reno is the new Chief Engineer, Lt. Commander Culber is the new CMO. Stamets was never the chief engineer. Notice that he’s always worn silver, not bronze, and clearly identifies more as a scientist. And his full time job is the spore drive and has no interest in the warp core or all the other ship systems.
Georgiou is a special set of circumstances. She took on the identity of Prime Universe Captain Philippa Georgiou. Calling her commander was either a mistake or an attempt to keep her sidelined. I’m hoping for exposition explaining. I’m guessing it’s coming in that one to one conversation with her and Suru we see in the photo. Culver’s face in one of the photos indicates she is saying something very outlandish.
The crew clearly knows who she really is and there’s no way they’d accept her command. That’s not the play. She’s along for the ride to be close to Michael and to learn all she can before she decides to leave them. She’d love to take Michael with her. I think she’ll re-found Section 31 in this time period and the Federation will find her useful.
Remember Yeoh asked in an interview with Martin-Green could a person like Mirror Georgiou be redeemed. And someone (maybe Kurtzman) called the idea for the Section 31 similar to Unforgiven. They’re going to eventually help us understand how she became the person she is. It will be tragic. And then they will give her the chance to become a hero.
Georgiou is a special set of circumstances. She took on the identity of Prime Universe Captain Philippa Georgiou. Calling her commander was either a mistake or an attempt to keep her sidelined. I’m hoping for exposition explaining. I’m guessing it’s coming in that one to one conversation with her and Suru we see in the photo. Culver’s face in one of the photos indicates she is saying something very outlandish.
The crew clearly knows who she really is and there’s no way they’d accept her command. That’s not the play. She’s along for the ride to be close to Michael and to learn all she can before she decides to leave them. She’d love to take Michael with her. I think she’ll re-found Section 31 in this time period and the Federation will find her useful.
Remember Yeoh asked in an interview with Martin-Green could a person like Mirror Georgiou be redeemed. And someone (maybe Kurtzman) called the idea for the Section 31 similar to Unforgiven. They’re going to eventually help us understand how she became the person she is. It will be tragic. And then they will give her the chance to become a hero.
