Spoilers Georgiou Season 3 Rank

[Timo]

...Heck, she doesn't even wear a valid uniform.

Although the black leather she prefers might just as well be a S31 uniform, and her rank in that organization might be perfectly official and valid. It's just that we don't really know much about her current S31 status, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cultcross]

Georgiou was masquerading (thinly) as her prime universe counterpart throughout season 2, so was addressed as Captain purely because that title was due her counterpart. It shouldn't be taken to imply an actual rank. It was simply part of the "the mirror universe is classified" thing that they maintained apparently even on the ship that went there.

The fact that command was not handed properly to Saru with command codes transferred and a suitable acceptance speech on his part establishing his authority and boosting morale before their big sacrifice is difficult to explain. It smells of overly sappy writing (I'm reminded of the quote "we're here to defend democracy, not practice it"), but perhaps we can, in universe, posit that Saru didn't take what Pike was offering, an opportunity to stamp his authority, and instead prevaricated in a Kelpian or a personal way and displayed what has been a bit of a theme in the show - that he is an unconfident leader.

Now as to why the Emperor of the Terrans is now being addressed as commander, and fairly casually as though it was obviously her rank (Saru calls her commander very soon after arrival during the survival phase, it's not like they had days to mull it over) we can't say for certain. I think the most likely explanations are that it is a title that S31 gave her, or Saru quickly gave her a field commission for reasons unknown. The former was my gut feeling as I can't see why Saru world need anything at that point less than yet another commander. Discovery is the Commanders Lounge in Space already.

 

[Jadeb]

I don't see why Saru would want to give her that much authority over the crew. It seems like they're butting heads already.

 

[Timo]

Georgiou was masquerading (thinly) as her prime universe counterpart throughout season 2, so was addressed as Captain purely because that title was due her counterpart. It shouldn't be taken to imply an actual rank. It was simply part of the "the mirror universe is classified" thing that they maintained apparently even on the ship that went there.

Well, her being Captain was crucial to the end of S1, giving her the authority to lead the mission to kill the Klingon homeworld. Keeping up the pretense would have practical consequences, then. And the pretense did persist till Pike beamed out in "Sorrow".

The fact that command was not handed properly to Saru with command codes transferred and a suitable acceptance speech on his part establishing his authority and boosting morale before their big sacrifice is difficult to explain.

Might have to do with the writers not yet really knowing how to shuffle their pack of characters for S3. But yes, it takes some explaining, and hopefully the writers will do their share.

It smells of overly sappy writing (I'm reminded of the quote "we're here to defend democracy, not practice it"), but perhaps we can, in universe, posit that Saru didn't take what Pike was offering, an opportunity to stamp his authority, and instead prevaricated in a Kelpian or a personal way and displayed what has been a bit of a theme in the show - that he is an unconfident leader.

Indeed... All the more reason for Pike to slap some reason to him there and then, though.

Now as to why the Emperor of the Terrans is now being addressed as commander, and fairly casually as though it was obviously her rank (Saru calls her commander very soon after arrival during the survival phase, it's not like they had days to mull it over) we can't say for certain. I think the most likely explanations are that it is a title that S31 gave her, or Saru quickly gave her a field commission for reasons unknown. The former was my gut feeling as I can't see why Saru world need anything at that point less than yet another commander. Discovery is the Commanders Lounge in Space already.

Very much this. We have lots of high-rankers who shy away from being the Chief of anything, and who jump from role to role without much rhyme or reason. Sure, perhaps all of them are aces of all trades, but hey, the ship can't work that way.

Possibly and hopefully, the 32nd century Starfleet will have no truck with that, and will put its own personnel in key positions when Saru can't make up his mind.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cultcross]

Commander Watch, Season 3

Saru (acting Captain)
Burnham (science officer)
Georgiou (apparently)
Nahn (security)
Jett Reno (engineer but apparently not Chief)
Unnamed medical commander from Magic (might be the CMO)
CMO if not that guy must be at least a Cmdr
Chief engineer, unnamed, likely to be a Cmdr to equal Reno.
Gotthelf, Web and Wilson (heard in dialogue, one could be the Chief engineer?)

We've also got at least two Lt Cmdrs, Stamets and Culber. Strictly I suppose Georgiou could be a Lt Cmdr.

Crew compliment of Discovery remains debated but Saru hints at 136 in season one. Roughly the same size as Voyager, who didn't have a single full commander.

 

[Timo]

Then again, the Discovery is at least "capable" of running 300 parallel scientific investigations in hopes of defeating the Klingons, and there's a full Lieutenant in charge of the one we follow. Might be the other high-ranking eggheads were kicked out once the spore drive panned out as a Wunderwaffe; might be there still remains an exceptional contingent of research and engineering specialists holding high rank, including a lot of Starfleet Mengeles in white, now doing make-work when their special fields of research no longer are relevant or tolerated.

The current complement of 88, plus or minus a Burnham or so, may reflect a "standard" complement of 136 or whatever minus those Leland killed. Or it may represent the ninety who volunteered to go to the future, minus the one dead BEM we know about. Might be officers volunteered, crew did not...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Unnamed medical commander from Magic (might be the CMO)
CMO if not that guy must be at least a Cmdr

I assume that Culber is now the CMO, and that the previous one was one of those who stayed behind on the Enterprise (I mean, it's not like we're ever going to see a doctor that's senior to Culber, amirite?).

And I see no reason not to think that Reno is now the chief engineer. God help them.

 

[XCV330]

Commander Watch, Season 3

Saru (acting Captain)
Burnham (science officer)
Georgiou (apparently)
Nahn (security)
Jett Reno (engineer but apparently not Chief)
Unnamed medical commander from Magic (might be the CMO)
CMO if not that guy must be at least a Cmdr
Chief engineer, unnamed, likely to be a Cmdr to equal Reno.
Gotthelf, Web and Wilson (heard in dialogue, one could be the Chief engineer?)

We've also got at least two Lt Cmdrs, Stamets and Culber. Strictly I suppose Georgiou could be a Lt Cmdr.

Crew compliment of Discovery remains debated but Saru hints at 138 in season one. Roughly the same size as Voyager, who didn't have a single full commander.

Dr. Pollard is a Lt (according to her badge, anyway. Those pips are really hard to see) and Dr Culber outranks her as Lt Cdr, so much like the chief engineer, they still haven't shown the CMO, assuming it's not Culber now. I have to assume SOME of the Discovery left before the jump into the future.

 

[Lord Garth]

If the crew of Discovery is 88, then some had to stay behind. I don't remember what the crew complement was in the first two seasons, but I know it was more than that. It was low-triple digits. I think Discovery is going to gain some 32nd Century crew, if Starfleet can spare people, to build the numbers back up.

For Georgiou being addressed as "Commander": I just figure it's a combination of Commander being the equivalent rank of Captain in Section 31, and "Captain" on Discovery is more of a title than a rank until Saru gets officially promoted, and there can only be one Captain at a time so, likewise, "Commander" for Georgiou is a title instead of a rank.

 

[Timo]

Before Tilly's utterance about the 88 here, we only ever got a SINGLE reference to a crew count, which was Saru worrying about the 134 lives he needs to protect in "Choose Your Pain". Whether he counted the then-absent Lorca or not, and/or himself, we don't know. Tyler then joined, and nobody supposedly died before the double finale.

Yet the ship might have had drastically different numbers of people aboard at other times. In the second season, whenever our heroes walk through their ship, the corridors are jam-packed with people operating corridor-located machinery. Is it a coincidence that the hundred-plus are sprinkled on their very route - or are there a thousand people aboard to make this statistically plausible?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lord Garth]

Before Tilly's utterance about the 88 here, we only ever got a SINGLE reference to a crew count, which was Saru worrying about the 134 lives he needs to protect in "Choose Your Pain".

That's what I was thinking of, but couldn't remember exactly.

 

[cultcross]

For Georgiou being addressed as "Commander": I just figure it's a combination of Commander being the equivalent rank of Captain in Section 31

Indeed possible - Commander may not even mean the same thing in s31, as it does not in every context today - a Royal Navy Commander and a Met Police Commander are two quite different things. We have seen at least one S31 member with a non standard rank before, albeit while in disguise - Deputy Director Sloane.

 

[Timo]

Romulan Intel ranks were pronouncedly different from their naval ones. Of Starfleet intel ranks, we hear of this guy called either Colonel West or Cornell West, but wearing a Vice Admiral pin rather than Colonel/Captain one... But he's basically the only SFI person we ever meet, save for some further and more clear-cut Admirals and a bunch of Commanders. And even when in uniform, such as Tyler, S31 people don't reveal rank on their black pins.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

While thinking this matter over, I realized during the second season they tended to be all over the place with how the Section 31 personnel were addressed. Georgiou was addressed interchangeably as Captain Georgiou or Agent Georgiou. Tyler was either Agent Tyler or Specialist Tyler throughout most of the season, then in the finale he was Provisional Commander Tyler at the inquiry until the Faceless Admiral made him an official Commander.

 

[Kraig]

There hasn't been an official change of command since Saru was given command. That makes him C.O. and his title is Captain regardless of his actual rank, at least until there is a formal change of command. To prevent errors in the chain of command and knowing who is actually in charge of the vessel, only the C.O. is called Captain. Even if others have the same or a higher rank than the C.O., they are called by their job title. They should call Georgiou either 'Section 31' or 'Consultant Georgiou.'

 

[Timo]

Pike and Saru already agreed on what Pike jokingly called "shared custody" early on. Laissez-faire seems to be the word of the day, and Pike simply was a slacker when it came to organizing the science vessel under his temporary command. And since Lorca had already reveled in disorder...

While thinking this matter over, I realized during the second season they tended to be all over the place with how the Section 31 personnel were addressed. Georgiou was addressed interchangeably as Captain Georgiou or Agent Georgiou. Tyler was either Agent Tyler or Specialist Tyler throughout most of the season, then in the finale he was Provisional Commander Tyler at the inquiry until the Faceless Admiral made him an official Commander.

Also, Leland was "Captain" on occasion, but was that by rank or by virtue of him being in command of the intel cutter?

It might indeed be convenient to think of S31 ranks as police ranks, so that a Commander would outrank a Captain. Pike's secret little chat with the agent everybody pretended to believe to be "Captain Georgiou", in his Ready Room in "Sorrow II", would then have involved a straightforward promotion to Commander, which appears to be a high rank indeed since Tyler can use it to essentially take over S31.

Yet S31 is definitely part of SF Intel, thus part of Starfleet, and our only example of a non-naval rank within Starfleet would be if we thought of the Auberjonois character in TUC as "Colonel West" rather than "Vice Admiral Cornell West". So it would be a bit of a shame to let go of naval ranks here.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lord Garth]

Elephant in the Room: Season 3 is a jumping-on point for Discovery. If it weren't for the references to Leland, you could amputate the first two seasons and start with "That Hope Is You"; with a crew from the past arriving in the future. The fact that they were from the 23rd Century can just be backstory where you only need to know the broad strokes and could get by without knowing the exact details of.

Some people might've decided to give DSC another chance since it's not a prequel anymore and they're moving in a different direction. So those people who are coming back (or are watching for the first time), might've skipped over most of (if not all of) the first two seasons and don't want to go back to watch them. They want to start with the third season. And the writers might've thought having two people with the rank/title of Captain might be confusing for those people.

 

[Timo]

I sort of doubt this particular confusion would ever even occur to the writers, though. "Skipping over" cuts both ways, and making changes might be too much of a chore if copy-pasting of character specs is an alternative...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Then calling her Commander is a mistake?

 

[The Wormhole]

Then calling her Commander is a mistake?

Probably, yeah.