Genesis Torpedo

[WebLurker]

Perhaps.

It could also be the case that the reason the planet fell apart was that the torpedo was detonated inside a nebula, and didn't have a complete planetary surface to work on.

True, Saavik did say that protomatter was dangerously unpredictable, but this is not proof that protomatter was the reason for the downfall of the Genesis planet. It could have been the other thing.

Besides, the Genesis cave didn't show any instability, did it? That time, the process worked exactly as planned. Not so for the planet.

It could've been a variety of factors (since the cave was a controlled experiment and everything about the Genesis planet's creation was by chance. But, no one, including inventor David Marcus, suggest that the planet is doomed because it was made out of a nebula. Also, if Genesis worked, it would still be used in the future. That suggests that Genesis was flawed from the beginning, and the protomatter is the reason why (the cave could've had a longer shelf life then the planet by being smaller, programmed correctly, or some combination). At any rate, all materials I've found related to the movie back up this explanation.

 

[FormerLurker]

There were (presumably) deleted scenes in the novelization of SFS that had David, Saavik and co. going to Regula and examining the flora there, and finding it wildly overgrown in a relatively short period of time. Saavik was puzzled about it, and David wouldn't answer her questions until they were on Genesis.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But, no one, including inventor David Marcus, suggest that the planet is doomed because it was made out of a nebula.

I'm sure they could have. We didn't get much time to see that, though.

Also, if Genesis worked, it would still be used in the future. That suggests that Genesis was flawed from the beginning, and the protomatter is the reason why

Not necessarily. It could also be that Genesis was simply too politically sensitive to ever use. If word got out that the Federation had a superweapon (which is essentially what Genesis was), how would they dare use it without the other powers ganging up on them? Think about it.

 

[Elder Knight]

At one point it was suggested that a life form could be transplanted to another world in order to make this planet usable for Genesis.
Now, it seems to me that this would involve moving a sample of an organism, surely not an entire population.
If that's the case, it would suggest that the rule is in place to avoid wiping out a species.

 

[publiusr]

We may see it perfected in some future trek story. I hope.

 

[WebLurker]

I'm sure they could have. We didn't get much time to see that, though.



Not necessarily. It could also be that Genesis was simply too politically sensitive to ever use. If word got out that the Federation had a superweapon (which is essentially what Genesis was), how would they dare use it without the other powers ganging up on them? Think about it.

However, it was public knowledge. The Klingons officially knew at least (from Star Trek IV) and it was a well-known historical event, as Janeway compares the Omega molecules to Genesis's destructive force in "The Omega Directive" (VGR).

On top of that, if it worked, why wouldn't they be using it for terraforming purposes (since it was known that the Federation had it in the first place, nations that suspected that the Federation would use it as a weapon would already have that suspicion)? (Also, Section 31 never considered using it during the Dominion War, which is a bit of a stretch if they had access to it).

I just don't see any reason to assume that the project wasn't inherently flawed from the beginning because of the protomatter because: A.) Every single and official licensed source states that that was indeed the case, B.) That was the authorial intent of the movie, and C.) Assuming that the Federation had a working Genesis device and never utilized it at all makes no sense, given future events.

 

[Timo]

A and B hold litlte interest to me, as they are not part of the Trek universe itself. As for C, the Federation after the TOS movies doesn't seem to suffer from a dearth of terraforming resources, or of Terra-like worlds. Heck, even the whole rationale for inventing Genesis in the first place, interstellar problems of food supply, is moot thanks to replicators. Quite possibly, terraforming post-TFS is a hobby project of minimal scientific value ("Home Soil") or an exercise in creative landscaping ("Second Sight") and requires no industrial approach akin to Genesis.

Quite possibly, fully functional Genesis devices are available as replicator patterns just like projectile rifles are. There simply happen to be very few situations where heroes with the required clearance would feel the need to create an Earth-like world (say, as a safe haven when their ship is about to explode) and would still retain the ability to fire up their replicators to the required level of complexity.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WebLurker]

A and B hold litlte interest to me, as they are not part of the Trek universe itself. As for C, the Federation after the TOS movies doesn't seem to suffer from a dearth of terraforming resources, or of Terra-like worlds. Heck, even the whole rationale for inventing Genesis in the first place, interstellar problems of food supply, is moot thanks to replicators. Quite possibly, terraforming post-TFS is a hobby project of minimal scientific value ("Home Soil") or an exercise in creative landscaping ("Second Sight") and requires no industrial approach akin to Genesis.

Quite possibly, fully functional Genesis devices are available as replicator patterns just like projectile rifles are. There simply happen to be very few situations where heroes with the required clearance would feel the need to create an Earth-like world (say, as a safe haven when their ship is about to explode) and would still retain the ability to fire up their replicators to the required level of complexity.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, A.) is (almost) always designed to fit exactly with canon (not to mention that when I first saw the movie, I understood that Genesis was a doomed venture). B.) I'll ignore for the sake of discussion.

And as far as C goes, food supply was only part of the reason for Genesis. The other was living space. If Genesis had worked, I don't see why it wouldn't so common that it could be used by the time of "Home Soil." That is the way successful new tech goes.

 

[Timo]

Well, A.) is (almost) always designed to fit exactly with canon

...The relevant point would be that the reverse is not true. Writers of new canon pay little heed to that which is official, except when they get their inspiration from an opportunity to contradict the official yet unaired interpretation. Genesis for one would be prime material to be "creatively" quoted and reinterpreted in the Abramsverse, in an amusing side note and nod to the fans.

If Genesis had worked, I don't see why it wouldn't so common that it could be used by the time of "Home Soil." That is the way successful new tech goes.

But there is no shortage of living space in the 24th century, either. Empty Class M planets can be provided for Skreean refugees at a moment's notice in "Sanctuary". Perhaps improved warp drives made Genesis outdated as a solution?

"Home Soil" looks more like an idle scientific experiment than an application of cutting edge tech to solve a practical problem. I doubt that people ITRW would stop dabbling with wind turbines or solar panels even if practical fusion were invented and solved all our energy problems...

That an entire planet can be set aside for a terraforming project taking centuries sounds more like indication of a wealth of living space than a dearth!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tribble puncher]

What is protomatter exactly? Did Carol know David added it to the Genesis Matrix? If she didn't, how could she not? How did Spock age so slowly in relation to the Planet to which he was bound? Wouldn't he have turned to dust before the Grissom even arrived? What did david hope would happen by adding protomatter? How much Time had elapsed in universe between the events of ST2 and ST3? Could you Imagine if Genesis had been Colonized and then had exploded? was that not something David Marcus was concerned about?

 

[WebLurker]

What is protomatter exactly? Did Carol know David added it to the Genesis Matrix?

I don't think so (although I could be wrong).

If she didn't, how could she not?

It could've been off the books. We're not given the details of how David Marcus put it in, just that he did and why he did.

How did Spock age so slowly in relation to the Planet to which he was bound? Wouldn't he have turned to dust before the Grissom even arrived?

Besides plot convenience? He was a foreign object to the Genesis matrix (that was never properly set up), which could've made him be affected differently?

What did david hope would happen by adding protomatter?

The movie explains that Project Genesis was undergoing problems that, if not fixed, would doom the project from working period. David took a risk that protomatter would fix it, which it did. The problem is that the fix only temporary held things together before they fell apart.

How much Time had elapsed in universe between the events of ST2 and ST3?

Not specified, however the assumption is that the Enterprise went back to Earth right after the Khan incident (presumably contacting Starfleet and updating them), and that Saavik and David traferred to the Grissom en route to study the planet in more detial. Kirk's log entry at Spacedock makes the most sense in this context.

Could you Imagine if Genesis had been Colonized and then had exploded? was that not something David Marcus was concerned about?

David had every reason to believe that the protomatter fix worked; up to that point the Genesis cave from the second movie had held up. It wasn't until he studied the Genesis planet itself that he realized that he had failed.

 

[Marsden]

What is protomatter exactly? Did Carol know David added it to the Genesis Matrix? If she didn't, how could she not?

Some nasty stuff. And even if he some how fixed something in with it, wouldn't there be notes about it, like, I fixed this process by..... but then they would have wanted to use that success to build on it. The way they talk about this "stuff" it's like he just taped another battery into it at the end and everything worked and no one noticed. Because research scientists working on expensive projects never keep notes so that their research can be either utilized in other projects or at least be patented in some way to protect their work. Too bad David didn't have a mustache, he could have twirled it while Saavik was mentioning the protomater and then he could have said he'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their Vulcan.

 

[WebLurker]

Some nasty stuff. And even if he some how fixed something in with it, wouldn't there be notes about it, like, I fixed this process by..... but then they would have wanted to use that success to build on it. The way they talk about this "stuff" it's like he just taped another battery into it at the end and everything worked and no one noticed. Because research scientists working on expensive projects never keep notes so that their research can be either utilized in other projects or at least be patented in some way to protect their work. Too bad David didn't have a mustache, he could have twirled it while Saavik was mentioning the protomater and then he could have said he'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their Vulcan.

The exacts were never addressed, either because it wasn't important to the story (or since it was a retcon, the writers forgot to take into account how real lab projects work). We're also assuming that David Marcus didn't falsify the logs with technobabble to provide an alternate explanation to hide the protomatter use and that Carol Marcus didn't know.

(Any scientists out there who have any insights into the plausible ways -- or lack thereof -- that a secret protomatter addition could've happened in a lab environment?)

 

[Tribble puncher]

The exacts were never addressed, either because it wasn't important to the story (or since it was a retcon, the writers forgot to take into account how real lab projects work). We're also assuming that David Marcus didn't falsify the logs with technobabble to provide an alternate explanation to hide the protomatter use and that Carol Marcus didn't know.

(Any scientists out there who have any insights into the plausible ways -- or lack thereof -- that a secret protomatter addition could've happened in a lab environment?)

I've seen these films 100s of times, yet it wasn't until my most recent viewing that I had a "now wait just a damn minute" moment in regards to the use of "protomatter" (I'm assuming it's like a higgs boson particle type thing.) But, he would have had to falsify data, which would have meant that any scientist but him attempting to recreate his work would not have gotten his results.....unless he was going to tell the Fed. Council eventually? I would wager a stint in a penal colony would be on the table at that point.

 

[Timo]

Why should Marcus falsify anything, in light of what we saw and heard? For all we know, his paper on the subject of "Genesis Phase III Experiment" would have made very explicit mention of the first-ever successful application of protomatter and gained him even greater fame. It's just that Genesis flopped, so he never wrote that paper - and there is no reason his extensive notes on the project so far would be familiar to Saavik, who is not a Genesis researcher by any stretch of imagination.

Protomatter is not a secret in the movie. It's a surprise to Saavik, which is a completely different thing.

How much Time had elapsed in universe between the events of ST2 and ST3?

All the stuff that supposedly happened between the movies could have happened in a couple of days (if the events are cut in sequence, then Kirk leaves Earth moments before Chekov claims that it will take "three days" for Khan to arrive at Regula I, but Chekov may be exaggerating to allow Khan to surprise Marcus). Also, all the travel in ST2 happened more or less within a day, and at non-emergency speeds, meaning that higher speeds could shorten that to a couple of hours. But for Kirk to return from Genesis to Earth via Ceti Alpha might not happen at emergency speeds, either, considering all the damage.

Or perhaps Kirk attempted high speed, and this is why his ship looks much worse off in ST3 than in ST2?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Or perhaps Kirk attempted high speed, and this is why his ship looks much worse off in ST3 than in ST2?

If you include the first eight issues of DC Comics' 1980s Star Trek comic in your continuity, it's likely a few months between STII and III. That gives more time for Kirk & crew to mourn Spock and feel his absence in their lives, Kirk & his son to get closer, and it even explains why the ship is more damaged at the beginning of STIII (another trip to the Galactic Barrier!).