Genesis Torpedo

[Timo]

...It's too bad that the solution really solves nothing. If Klingons get their hands on Genesis, it not only works splendidly as a weapon - it now skips the stage that so annoyed Kruge, the one where colonists happily dance around the UFP flag on this new and very stable planet.

Really, having the ability to create habitable planets at the push of a button should change virtually nothing about the Trek formula. The Trek universe is full of habitable planets already, and the heroes never really sweated conquering more of those for their government. If that government now produces its own planets, it won't stop Kirk from exploring what exciting lifeforms and cultures exist out there, or from having to fight Klingons and Romulans who would wish for war regardless of whether they could create habitable planets at will.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WebLurker]

It also gives the Federation a powerful WMD that could make wining wars very easy (if they decided to ignore morality).

 

[Retu]

...It's too bad that the solution really solves nothing. If Klingons get their hands on Genesis, it not only works splendidly as a weapon - it now skips the stage that so annoyed Kruge, the one where colonists happily dance around the UFP flag on this new and very stable planet.

Really, having the ability to create habitable planets at the push of a button should change virtually nothing about the Trek formula. The Trek universe is full of habitable planets already, and the heroes never really sweated conquering more of those for their government. If that government now produces its own planets, it won't stop Kirk from exploring what exciting lifeforms and cultures exist out there, or from having to fight Klingons and Romulans who would wish for war regardless of whether they could create habitable planets at will.

Timo Saloniemi

The computer game Klingon Academy goes with this idea. The academy training scenario is a fictional war against the Federation, which ends with the delivery of weaponized Genesis device to Earth.

 

[Marsden]

It also gives the Federation a powerful WMD that could make wining wars very easy (if they decided to ignore morality).

I'm not sure that's accurate, though. A one shot planet killer sounds useful for killing planets quickly, but with it's standard compliment of phasers and photon torpedoes, the Enterprise and probably any starship the Federation has had enough firepower to render the surface of a planet destroyed. The Genesis device would just make it ready to move in and live there afterwards.

 

[Timo]

There are a thousand ways to utterly destroy an undefended planet. Some planets can defend themselves against a thousand starships, though. For those, a single-shot planet-buster might be a necessary tool for getting the job done at all. Fire a hundred Genesis torps and a hundred thousand decoys and you just might score the single hit that counts...

However, it seems all the big players already have single-shot planet-busters. The Cardassian Dreadnought is the brute force approach, with a giant antimatter warhead, but already sufficient for the job; the Feds could only do better. That they don't may tell something of UFP politics rather than their technology. That Klingons and Romulans never go for such weapons (which would be irresistible if provided with a cloak) tells something of galactic politics: killing of planets simply is Not Done, even though the means definitely exist.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WebLurker]

I'm not sure that's accurate, though. A one shot planet killer sounds useful for killing planets quickly, but with it's standard compliment of phasers and photon torpedoes, the Enterprise and probably any starship the Federation has had enough firepower to render the surface of a planet destroyed. The Genesis device would just make it ready to move in and live there afterwards.

In "The Die is Cast" (DS9), A fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships plan to destroy the Founder's homeworld through orbital bombardment, which they estimate will take an hour (they don't get to finish the job, so we don't know how accurate the estimate it). So, even if one ship could do a lot of damage, it doesn't sound like one ship is enough to destroy a whole world.

There are a thousand ways to utterly destroy an undefended planet. Some planets can defend themselves against a thousand starships, though. For those, a single-shot planet-buster might be a necessary tool for getting the job done at all. Fire a hundred Genesis torps and a hundred thousand decoys and you just might score the single hit that counts...

However, it seems all the big players already have single-shot planet-busters. The Cardassian Dreadnought is the brute force approach, with a giant antimatter warhead, but already sufficient for the job; the Feds could only do better. That they don't may tell something of UFP politics rather than their technology. That Klingons and Romulans never go for such weapons (which would be irresistible if provided with a cloak) tells something of galactic politics: killing of planets simply is Not Done, even though the means definitely exist.

Timo Saloniemi

The whole point of Star Trek III: The Search For Spock was that Kruge wanted the Genesis project for use as a weapon. Wether or not his government supported his quest or not, it does sound pretty likely that the Klingons at one point or another would've been happy to have an instant-kill gun in their arsenal.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think some of you are forgetting that protomatter was described as both "unstable" and "dangerously unpredictable." A weapon isn't of too much use when you don't have any idea what it'll do each time you use it.

 

[Timo]

In "The Die is Cast" (DS9), A fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships plan to destroy the Founder's homeworld through orbital bombardment, which they estimate will take an hour (they don't get to finish the job, so we don't know how accurate the estimate it). So, even if one ship could do a lot of damage, it doesn't sound like one ship is enough to destroy a whole world.

The unlikely allies initially think it will take an hour to destroy the crust, then five more to destroy the mantle. However, when the fleet actually fires, the opening volley destroys a third of the crust already. The estimate of one hour must have been for an opposed assault, then, or else these fine analysts of the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar are worthless amateurs.

An unopposed assault could then be conducted by a single ship in a reasonable amount of time. I mean, what would the showstopper be? Phasers don't overheat after the first two shots (except in "Balance of Terror",an occurrence that our heroes consider perfectly normal!), and a hundred photon torpedoes, a typical warload from the TOS movies on, already ought to do the trick as per the witnessed effects of individual high yield torps on worlds.

Wether or not his government supported his quest or not, it does sound pretty likely that the Klingons at one point or another would've been happy to have an instant-kill gun in their arsenal.

The point might be to have such things in one's arsenal but then never use them in fighting a war - a bit like nukes today. If one side used them, the other would as well, and even when the alternative of holding back costs you a dozen outer colonies, it's better than losing your homeworld.

I think some of you are forgetting that protomatter was described as both "unstable" and "dangerously unpredictable." A weapon isn't of too much use when you don't have any idea what it'll do each time you use it.

Similar problems probably resulted in the bans on polaric ion and subspace weapons. This didn't stop certain players from fielding those weapons, though: the advantages of a powerful effect probably outweigh the disadvantages of a feeble or backfiring effect, at least for underdogs who just won't make it with conventional weapons.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WebLurker]

I think some of you are forgetting that protomatter was described as both "unstable" and "dangerously unpredictable." A weapon isn't of too much use when you don't have any idea what it'll do each time you use it.

I know that I was speaking hypothetically, assuming that Genesis worked as thought in Wrath of Khan. On the other hand, as long as it wiped out its targets, I could imagine that some military commanders wouldn't care if it created a brand-new ecosystem, wiped the planet clean to the core, or whatever.

The unlikely allies initially think it will take an hour to destroy the crust, then five more to destroy the mantle. However, when the fleet actually fires, the opening volley destroys a third of the crust already. The estimate of one hour must have been for an opposed assault, then, or else these fine analysts of the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar are worthless amateurs.

An unopposed assault could then be conducted by a single ship in a reasonable amount of time. I mean, what would the showstopper be? Phasers don't overheat after the first two shots (except in "Balance of Terror",an occurrence that our heroes consider perfectly normal!), and a hundred photon torpedoes, a typical warload from the TOS movies on, already ought to do the trick as per the witnessed effects of individual high yield torps on worlds.



The point might be to have such things in one's arsenal but then never use them in fighting a war - a bit like nukes today. If one side used them, the other would as well, and even when the alternative of holding back costs you a dozen outer colonies, it's better than losing your homeworld.



Similar problems probably resulted in the bans on polaric ion and subspace weapons. This didn't stop certain players from fielding those weapons, though: the advantages of a powerful effect probably outweigh the disadvantages of a feeble or backfiring effect, at least for underdogs who just won't make it with conventional weapons.

Timo Saloniemi

In regards to the DS9 episode, I have heard the complaint about the difference between the time estimate and percentage of damage discussed before (in the fan reference book The Nitpicker's Guide For Deep Space Nine Trekkers, a wonderful book if you've never had the chance to experience it or the previous volumes in the series for TOS and TNG). If I were to no-prize it, I would assume that, since we didn't see the entire operation and are laypersons in this science, we don't fully understand all the details to know why it doesn't work. (Also, "The Doomsday Machine" [TOS] establishes that phaser banks eventually run dry -- and did after one sustained battle -- so it could be possible that the extra time was factoring in a similar problem for disruptors.

There is some evidence for the idea of a single ship taking out a planet now that I think about it. In "A Taste of Armageddon" (TOS), Kirk orders General Order 24 carried out (wonder how Kirk explained that one to the Halkans in "Mirror, Mirror" [TOS]?). Anyways, although it's never carried out, we get these descriptions:

Kirk: "You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven."

Scotty: "Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."

It does sound like one ship could do the entire job within a little under two hours, however, given that they keep emphasizing targeting cities and could be exaggerating how awful the destruction could be to get cooperation, it's a little hard to compare to the DS9 example.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think some of you are forgetting that protomatter was described as both "unstable" and "dangerously unpredictable." A weapon isn't of too much use when you don't have any idea what it'll do each time you use it.

I know that I was speaking hypothetically, assuming that Genesis worked as thought in Wrath of Khan. On the other hand, as long as it wiped out its targets, I could imagine that some military commanders wouldn't care if it created a brand-new ecosystem, wiped the planet clean to the core, or whatever.

How about a weapon that destroys your ship or your entire star system before you have a chance to use it? "Unstable" and "dangerously unpredictable" covers a LOT of ground.

 

[WebLurker]

How about a weapon that destroys your ship or your entire star system before you have a chance to use it? "Unstable" and "dangerously unpredictable" covers a LOT of ground.

A drone or suicide ship?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Still a big risk. You're trying to control what is inherently uncontrollable.

 

[FormerLurker]

In the TNG episode "The Chase" the Klingon commander, I forget his name, uses some means to destroy all life on one planet, to prevent the Enterprise and the Cardassians from getting any samples there. So a single Klingon ship has that capability at least.

 

[Timo]

Still a big risk. You're trying to control what is inherently uncontrollable.

This goes for basically every weapon ever applied - you can cut yourself with the sharp edge of your flint knife, your gunpowder can explode on you, and the antimatter loading system of your photon torpedo launcher certainly is more likely to kill you (a proximal target exposed to the danger every time there's a firing attempt) than the enemy (a distant target that only gets hit, with a fraction of the total antimatter load, if the torpedo reaches the destination).

We know that risk is Starfleet's business, but they at least can afford not to take WMD risks every second week. The Klingons, the Cardassians or the Talarians might not be as fortunate.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

In the TNG episode "The Chase" the Klingon commander, I forget his name, uses some means to destroy all life on one planet, to prevent the Enterprise and the Cardassians from getting any samples there. So a single Klingon ship has that capability at least.

So does a Starfleet ship, as one of the general orders covers the eventuality of destroying a planet (this was referenced in some TOS episode or another, and I'm forgetting which one right now).

This goes for basically every weapon ever applied - you can cut yourself with the sharp edge of your flint knife, your gunpowder can explode on you, and the antimatter loading system of your photon torpedo launcher certainly is more likely to kill you (a proximal target exposed to the danger every time there's a firing attempt) than the enemy (a distant target that only gets hit, with a fraction of the total antimatter load, if the torpedo reaches the destination).

Those are all semi-foreseeable results that can be avoided with a few simple safety precautions. I'm assuming that if protomatter is/was as unstable as they say (and considering we never really hear about since TSFS, it must be), you could do everything right with it, and it could still go kablooey on you. David didn't expect to find so many climates in such a small area on Genesis. He also didn't see the rapid-aging effect coming. That tells me that the effects of protomatter were pretty random.

 

[WebLurker]

So does a Starfleet ship, as one of the general orders covers the eventuality of destroying a planet (this was referenced in some TOS episode or another, and I'm forgetting which one right now).

"A Taste of Armageddon" and "Whom Gods Desotry" (TOS).

Those are all semi-foreseeable results that can be avoided with a few simple safety precautions. I'm assuming that if protomatter is/was as unstable as they say (and considering we never really hear about since TSFS, it must be), you could do everything right with it, and it could still go kablooey on you. David didn't expect to find so many climates in such a small area on Genesis. He also didn't see the rapid-aging effect coming. That tells me that the effects of protomatter were pretty random.

Protomatter is a part of a technobable cocktail to re-start as star in "Second Sight" (DS9).

 

[Timo]

Those are all semi-foreseeable results that can be avoided with a few simple safety precautions.

Things are getting monotonically worse there. You could always use a safe scabbard for your sharp implement. But you never could be sure about gunpowder; nautical mines of the past century did kill you at some point; and combat management systems that reduce your reaction time are killing friendlies all the time today. Having a bomb that will either turn a planet into a new planet at the push of a button, or you into an orca and two daisies without any keypress, isn't qualitatively different from having one of 'em autonomous combat systems being fielded today, fundamentally reliant on that epitome of unpredictability, software...

David didn't expect to find so many climates in such a small area on Genesis. He also didn't see the rapid-aging effect coming. That tells me that the effects of protomatter were pretty random.

David had no control over that experiment, though - whereas the Ceti Alpha debacle suggests that careful control of variables is key to a successful experiment. Automatically blaming protomatter for what went wrong with Genesis doesn't sound like a scientifically valid approach.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WebLurker]

David had no control over that experiment, though - whereas the Ceti Alpha debacle suggests that careful control of variables is key to a successful experiment. Automatically blaming protomatter for what went wrong with Genesis doesn't sound like a scientifically valid approach.

Timo Saloniemi

As I understood it, Wrath of Khan established that a lot of detailed work went into planning a specific Genesis project and custom designing the matrix. When Khan used it, he just wanted to use it as a bomb and wouldn't have bothered to fine tune it even if he had studied the instruction manual, so the transformation of the nebula into a planet was by chance.

However, the protomatter made Genesis fundamentally unable to to work long term (the protomatter was the reason that the planet fell apart at the end of Search For Spock). So, even a controlled Genesis experiment wouldn't have lasted forever.

 

[jaime]

Eating a protomatter made apple in the Genesis cave is why Kirk ages so much between V and VI. It was a delayed effect. Just woke up one morning and boom grey hair, arthritis....there were lice on Rura Penthe and one was kicking another one into falling off the back of his head....he gets it under control a few months later when the enterprise b is launched, except for his sideburns. It takes him going in and out of the Nexus to fix those.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the protomatter was the reason that the planet fell apart at the end of Search For Spock

Perhaps.

It could also be the case that the reason the planet fell apart was that the torpedo was detonated inside a nebula, and didn't have a complete planetary surface to work on.

True, Saavik did say that protomatter was dangerously unpredictable, but this is not proof that protomatter was the reason for the downfall of the Genesis planet. It could have been the other thing.

Besides, the Genesis cave didn't show any instability, did it? That time, the process worked exactly as planned. Not so for the planet.