Generations/Time Travel rules/Kirk

[Kirk Prime]

I have a theory that Kirk Prime is actually alive and well. How to explain it kind of depends on how one feels about time travel rules in Star Trek.

I'm a bit unclear as to whether this discussion belongs here or in the Kelvin thread but it kind of has elements of both so I'll leave it to the moderators.

For decades, Star Trek had a very simple view on time travel--if you travel back in time and do something, you can change history. Some of Trek's finest stories have been based on that principle, from City on the Edge, to Yesterday's Enterprise to First Contact and many more. Pretty much every time travel story we had involved the risk of changing history.

There are always some loopholes, often to make the story work, that the time traveler himself is immune to the changes in time travel. If not for that, Kirk and crew disappear when McCoy saves Edith, and there is no Enterprise D to stop the Borg.

If you solely go by what you see on screen, and I am in that camp, then when Spock and Nero traveled back in time, they erased all the stories we saw before that movie and the Kelvin Timeline replaces the Roddenberry timeline completely. Spock Prime and Nero still exist, because again, the time traveler somehow is immune to these things.

This is been a debate between Star Trek fans for a long time, because JJ Abrams, off camera, tried to use his own time travel rules. He explains that when you travel in time, you create a new universe, and the timeline you left still exists. That's perfectly acceptable, except that contradicts everything we know about time travel rules in Star Trek, and would take away the risk and reward of all the great time travel stories we saw.

Worse, given that canon is what we see on screen, Abrams, who had the right to WRITE those lines in the story, chose not to. An alternate reality, as Uhura calls it, happens in all cases of time travel, but that does not mean that the original reality still exists.

Because of that, I've never been able to accept Abrams' statement since had he wanted that, he could have put it in the movie and made it crystal clear.

Of course, other universes DO exist in Star Trek, as we saw in Parallels and Mirror Mirror, and they have also been a part of some of the best Trek stories. However, nothing in ST09 mentioned that Spock Prime was from an alternate universe. Every time that universal changes happened, it was crystal clear that we were being treated to that story. If time travel happens, the timeline is at risk. Not so with changing universes.

So while a universe identical to the prime universe exists, it's not THE prime universe because the timeline changed. I do think that if they ever wanted to do so, they could override this presumption with dialogue and a story, but so far, they have not done so.

All of the above is more of a Kelvin timeline topic, and this is more about Generations.

I would argue that under both theories of time travel, Kirk Prime is still alive. I'll save the Abrams version of time travel for later, but it seems pretty clear that the way the nexus was set up, you can exit at any time, in any place, but you can't leave in a place where you already exist. If you do so, your other self will cease to exist, replaced by the version exiting the nexus. Guinan's echo said she couldn't leave because she was already there. Based on the fact that Picard's pre-nexus self was not there, it would be easy to argue that had Guinan left with Picard, she would have wiped out 78 years of her life, including everything we saw on TNG, and that's a lot to ask, when Kirk was in the nexus.

Picard only lost about 10 minutes and a beating, so it wasn't that big of a deal. Also, since Kirk didn't exist at a point after he went into the nexus, there was no Kirk to replace, which is why Kirk could exit there.

Had Kirk exited on the Enterprise B or before, he would have replaced himself.

I believe that when you're in the nexus, a version of you exists in the nexus at all times and places, capable of exiting--until the nexus itself is destroyed. If you can exit at any time, then if you enter at any time, you will have access to anyone who ever went in the nexus, and they would be capable of leaving. Essentially, an infinite number of Kirks and Picards.

So that's one way Kirk survives.

Another is much more simple. Under Roddenberry rules, Picard and Kirk traveled to a point in the past, even a short point, before Picard entered the nexus. In the nexus, Kirk was chopping wood while his future self was helping Picard ready to get killed. By stopping Soran though, Picard never enters the nexus, and that version of Kirk then never leaves. His doppleganger is dead on Veridian III, but Kirk Prime is still in there because Soran never destroyed the star and Picard never encountered Kirk Prime.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Some of the novels (kind of) run with that sort of idea if you're interested.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Well, Kirk was brought back in I believe three separate novels. The most famous of which were the Shatnerverse, which SPOILER......












was really a simple, no time travel, means of resurrecting the same guy that died in the movie.

Another book, I don't remember the title and I didn't read it, had a reset ending, so it really didn't mean much to me. SPOILER...







I think the idea was that Kirk was saved by Scotty on the E-B, and that set a chain of events that forced them to make Kirk die again. Stupid, since if they were smart, they would have realized that if Scotty knew Kirk was alive in Relics, history really didn't change that much.

Finally there was Crucible Kirk, the third book in a bunch of stories that dealt with Kirk, Spock and McCoy's lives as they got older. A much different story than Shatner's The Return, but it was just as enjoyable, and far more Doc Brownish with its use of the nexus.

I really WISH that could be a movie because it really captured the character, was well written, and was very satisfactory for those like me who loathe what they did to Kirk in Generations.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

if they were smart, they would have realized that if Scotty knew Kirk was alive in Relics, history really didn't change that much.

I always thought Scotty was just making a joke. That far in the future, there's no way he could know if Kirk was alive or not, he was just having a laugh.

And of course "Relics" was written before Kirk was killed off anyway.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Scotty wasn't make a joke. He had no idea at that point that he was in the transporter for 75 years. For all he know, it was only a few days. Think about it a second--you were in a massive accident, your ship crashed, and you go into the transporter in a desperate attempt to live--you're not coming out cracking jokes so fast.

Yes, Relics was written before they killed Kirk, which means that in the original timeline, Kirk didn't die.

 

[Dukhat]

I actually prefer my own theory: Kirk did die on the Enterprise-B, and the guy Picard met in the Nexus was just part of Picard's fantasy. Therefore, Picard never actually left the Nexus and everything he's experienced since then is still part of his Nexus fantasy.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Canon doesn't support that.

So here's how Kirk lives if we buy into Abrams' theory on time travel.

Let's start with the premise that we accept Abrams' rules of time travel, and ruin all the time travel episodes/movies that came before it.

When you travel in time, you do not erase a timeline. You end up in a new universe, and the old universe where you started, still exists. So when McCoy saved Edith, the original Kirk and crew were on the Guardian planet in a different universe. Killing Edith brought them back to their own universe.

So when Nero did his thing, the original timeline was not wiped out. It was just a universe that was identical to the prime universe until Nero blew up the Kelvin, and things diverged from there.

To understand that Kirk Prime is alive, you have to define the Prime Universe.

The Prime Universe is the universe that we the audience followed when watching Star Trek.

That's it.

So Kirk Prime is on the Enterprise B. He gets blasted into the nexus.

Picard in this situation is essentially Spock Prime.

78 years after Kirk gets shot in the nexus, Picard loses a fight to Soran and ends up in the nexus too.

We will call that Universe A.

When Picard leaves the nexus, he did not return the moment he left. That would have been awkward since he would have been floating in space with Kirk at the ruins of Veridian III and they die.

So Picard and Kirk travels back in time about 10 minutes and relive the fight.

According to Abrams though, Universe A did not change. That universe, where Picard lost the fight, still exists and continues. Picard is from Universe A, and somehow replaced his Universe B counterpart in a way that was not explained, but we have to assume that it has to do with the nexus merging you with your other self (if alive).

We will call the universe that Kirk and Picard fight together Universe B.

We clearly see that Universe B and Universe A are identical, until Soran turns around and sees Kirk instead of Picard.

Picard and Kirk are from Universe A. Kirk from Universe B is in the nexus, so Kirk from Universe A wouldn't merge with him.

Of course, if Kirk from Universe B exited the nexus at that point, he would have merged with Kirk from Universe A, but Universe B Kirk was just chopping away.

Anyway, so now we have Picard from Universe A merged with Picard from Universe B, and Kirk from Universe A, taking on Soran from Universe B.

Kirk from Universe A dies in the fight, but because they saved Veridian, no one goes into the nexus to get Kirk from Universe B.

Now--here's the kicker--Universe B is now the universe we follow as the viewer of Star Trek. Hence, Universe B is the prime universe. The Kirk that died was from the universe where Soran won.

So the Kirk that died was not Kirk Prime. Kirk Prime is in the nexus, alive and well.

 

[Dukhat]

Canon doesn't support that.

Er, canon doesn't support your theory either, but I'm not taking this as seriously as you seem to be doing. Theorizing that the rest of the movies after Generations, plus the latter half of DS9 and all of VOY, were just figments of Picard's Nexus fantasy, is no more or less valid a theory than your theory that Kirk is still alive. But in the end they're still just theories. When it comes to that ill-defined and barely-thought-out plot device (the Nexus), anything's possible, right?

And since the tone of your postings indicate that you're not interested in hearing opposing viewpoints to your theory, there really isn't anything to discuss, is there? Unless of course you just want all of us to slavishly agree with you.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Actually, canon does support my theory. There is no evidence that everything for the last 23 years is Picard's dream. It's not even implied.

However, there is evidence of what I argued. The nature of the nexus itself and time travel, supported by many other examples in Star Trek, can show that Kirk is still in the nexus. The nature of JJ Abrams' version of time travel, pretty much proves that Kirk Prime is still alive.

But there is nothing that implies or remotely suggests that everything in the nexus is Picard's dream. That would mean that Picard dreamed the Dominion War, everything that happened on DS9 and Voyager, and Enterprise too. If you allow the pre-ST09 comics into canon, then the entire Kelvin Universe--also a part of Picard's dream.

The nature of the nexus allows quite a few outs for Kirk. But the intent of the writers is very clear that Picard escaped the nexus with Kirk and fought Soran a second time.

A plot hole can find support for many things, but there is no plot hole in whether or not Picard escaped the nexus. That was kind of the whole point of the movie--using the nexus to bring Kirk and Picard together.

 

[somebuddyX]

I feel Guinan's echo is just that, the part of her that remained in the Nexus. Guinan was beamed out of the Nexus but a small piece of her remains there, giving her some special abilities or senses, that may be shared with the other El-Aurians. As for Picard and Kirk, they went in, they came out and that's it.

 

[Kirk Prime]

See now that IS supported in canon. But I think it's open for interpretation. Guinan never said she couldn't leave at all. She said she couldn't leave because she already existed out there.

We don't know specifics as to what was going on with Guinan--just basically that one line that said she couldn't leave because a version of her was there.

Ignoring the Abrams time travel rules for a second, here's what we do know...

Inside the nexus, time has no meaning. So if that were true, then wouldn't it also be true that anyone who was ever in the nexus, would be accessible from any point in history? Add to that the ability to exit the nexus at any point and place in history. Therefore it would seem that there would literally be an infinite number of versions of anyone in the nexus, capable of exiting at any point should they choose.

But what happens if you exit the nexus at a point where you already exist? Only one person that we know of did that--Picard.

Guinan and Kirk both exited the nexus at a point in history where they did not exist. Both of them exited after they entered. But Picard exited the nexus at a point before he went in.

What happened? Where was the other Picard? There was no other Picard, which means that even though there should have been 2 Picards, we have canon evidence that if you exit the nexus at a point before you enter, you replace your other self.

That's exactly what happened to Picard.

He replaced his past self.

Logically, had Guinan left, she would have replaced HER counterpart.

Is it right to wipe out 78 years of Guinan's life, her experiences, her relationships, without even getting her permission? Especially if there is a more capable ally already in the nexus, who would not be subject to such a sacrifice?

But here's the thing--Picard and Kirk time traveled back to a point in the past, about 10 minutes, at a point before Picard went into the nexus. Under the Roddenberry rules of time travel, then Kirk's past self is still in the nexus while that fight was going on. They win the fight, the nexus passes by, with Kirk's past self still in there, because history changed, and Picard never went into the nexus to retrieve Kirk.

It's a paradox, but it's consistent with past Star Trek time travel stories.

 

[Dukhat]

Actually, canon does support my theory. There is no evidence that everything for the last 23 years is Picard's dream. It's not even implied.

However, there is evidence of what I argued. The nature of the nexus itself and time travel, supported by many other examples in Star Trek, can show that Kirk is still in the nexus. The nature of JJ Abrams' version of time travel, pretty much proves that Kirk Prime is still alive.

But there is nothing that implies or remotely suggests that everything in the nexus is Picard's dream. That would mean that Picard dreamed the Dominion War, everything that happened on DS9 and Voyager, and Enterprise too. If you allow the pre-ST09 comics into canon, then the entire Kelvin Universe--also a part of Picard's dream.

The nature of the nexus allows quite a few outs for Kirk. But the intent of the writers is very clear that Picard escaped the nexus with Kirk and fought Soran a second time.

A plot hole can find support for many things, but there is no plot hole in whether or not Picard escaped the nexus. That was kind of the whole point of the movie--using the nexus to bring Kirk and Picard together.

I think you're a bit confused. Neither your theory that Kirk is alive nor my theory that Picard is still in the Nexus has anything whatsoever to do with "canon." Because canonically, Kirk is dead, and DS9, VOY, ENT and the TNG movies all actually happened in-universe.

You and I are both using a fictional plot device whose properties neither of us can truly have complete comprehension about (because, you know, it's fictional) to justify our respective theories. And that's fine. But I'm afraid you're not in a position to tell me that your theory is correct and mine isn't, using only a fictional plot device's effects as evidence, especially since we've only seen it once and really have no clue as to what the Nexus can really do or not do. All I have to go on is Guinan's statement that once you're there, you'll never want to leave, and Soran's attempts to return that are so great he's willing to destroy stars and planets to get back. And yet Picard wants nothing more than to leave. This is the polar opposite of two people's words and actions who have been there also. Therefore, Picard is still there, and his meeting with Kirk, his "leaving" the Nexus, and everything afterwards is nothing more than a fantasy that he thinks is reality. That's my non-canonical theory.

As for implication? I don't need any. Because again, neither of us have any indication of what the Nexus can do. Just because Picard wasn't an active participant in VOY doesn't mean that it still wasn't part of his fantasy. Just ask Tommy Westphall.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

There can be precedent that time traveling creates new universes rather than rewriting the current timeline IF you accept there are different forms of time travel that have different effects on the universe.

For the sake of argument, let's say that in All Good Things, the future that Picard sees is his actual future. Let's also use Q as a plot device to clear up how and why Picard shifts between the timelines and retains memories of other timelines, but again we just need to take the different timelines at face value. I've read some rationalizations that there are forms of time travel where information is relayed one way or two ways. The anti-time anomaly operates only in one direction which is why when it starts traveling backwards into the timeline, it doesn't effect the future where it originated. The new information that the anomaly creates in the past (of simply existing within that timeframe) does not travel upstream to its original future. We now have a separate universe where the anomaly appears in the 7th season of TNG, completely separate from the original universe where the anomaly didn't appear until the 32nd season of TNG (lol). This is why no one has any memory of the anomaly being around in their past. In their past, the anomaly never existed, even though we clearly see it in both the TNG present and TNG past. Each time the anomaly appears in the past, it created a new divergent universe rather than rewriting the future/present. Q then zaps Picard between universes and we follow his adventure.

Red matter probably works this way as well. I don't really think this is that hard to accept and is a perfectly good explanation as to why the Kelvin timeline exists in another new divergent universe. All one needs to accept is that the mechanics of time travel are nuanced.

Does the Nexus operate in this way? Probably not since nothing in the story requires it to do so. Just because Abrams used this system of time travel in his movie doesn't mean that EVERY instance of time travel has to be retroactively bound to this rule. It's Star Trek... the only consistent thing about the rules of time travel are that they are inconsistent between the methods and consequences.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I think you're a bit confused. Neither your theory that Kirk is alive nor my theory that Picard is still in the Nexus has anything whatsoever to do with "canon." Because canonically, Kirk is dead, and DS9, VOY, ENT and the TNG movies all actually happened in-universe.

Actually, I'm not the one who is confused. When I say support in canon, I mean that if you look at what you saw onscreen, the nature of the movie, the nexus itself, etc., there is ample support that Kirk Prime is alive.

Under Roddenberry rules of time travel, we saw the nexus in tact, in a timeline where Picard never entered the nexus. Kirk did die, but there is a version of Kirk, equal and original, from the new timeline that Picard and Kirk created, that was never retrieved from the nexus. There is plenty of support for this in canon via pretty much every time travel episode they did.

Under Abrams rules of time travel, the Kirk that died was from a different universe, and Kirk Prime was never retrieved from the nexus.

But there is simply nothing to suggest that everything post-Generations was Picard's dream.

Could your theory be possible? It could, if it wasn't contradicted by the movie itself. The difference is that with the theory I have about Kirk Prime, the events of Generations still unfold as we saw. They did leave the nexus, and a version of Kirk did die. Under Roddenberry rules, Picard and Kirk changed history and Kirk was never retrieved. Under Abrams rules, the Kirk that died was from another universe. But the fight with Soran still takes place, as we saw, and so did every movie/show since.

What you are talking about would make a hell of a plot twist. Could they have done that? Sure. But they didn't.

Does the Nexus operate in this way? Probably not since nothing in the story requires it to do so. Just because Abrams used this system of time travel in his movie doesn't mean that EVERY instance of time travel has to be retroactively bound to this rule. It's Star Trek... the only consistent thing about the rules of time travel are that they are inconsistent between the methods and consequences.

This is getting into a different topic, but the reality is, Abrams never really addressed these things. At no point ONSCREEN did he choose to change how time travel works. He rationalized it off screen. I believe that in the absence of an on screen choice, the writer is making the choice to follow what has been explained before. That means that Roddenberry rules of time travel apply, and Nero wiped out the prime universe.

Would your explanation work? Of course it would. So would other explanations. The problem is, Abrams, who had the choice, chose not to do that. The only explanation of the Kelvin timeline is Uhura talking about an alternate reality. But an alternate reality would happen in any case of time travel. If I travel back in time and make a change, whether I wipe out the original timeline or I am in another universe, I am in an alternate reality. So nothing in ST09 suggests that the prime universe still exists.

That doesn't mean Abrams couldn't in a future movie show that it does indeed exist. But he just hasn't. For purposes of this thread, analyzing Generations from both sets of rules for time travel can easily lead to the conclusion that no matter what, Kirk Prime is alive. The only difference is that under Roddenberry rules, it's all one universe with an interesting paradox.

 

[Dukhat]

Actually, I'm not the one who is confused. When I say support in canon, I mean that if you look at what you saw onscreen, the nature of the movie, the nexus itself, etc., there is ample support that Kirk Prime is alive.

I wasn't disputing your theory. Since we're talking about the fictional aspects of time travel, anyone can leap though hoops to justify their pet theories about it, since there are no set rules governing it.

But as far as canon is concerned, it's just a theory not a fact. Because only CBS has the authority to decide whether your theory is right and Kirk is actually alive. You don't have that power. Until CBS issues a press release stating that your theory is in fact correct, it's no more supported by canon than my theory is. It's a fun thought experiment, but it's nothing more than that.

And on the subject of my theory:

But there is simply nothing to suggest that everything post-Generations was Picard's dream.

Actually, there's quite a bit that suggests this, as far as my pet theory goes. Let's analyze, shall we?

1. First Contact: Putting aside for the moment that the Borg's time travel idea makes absolutely no sense (why pick that arbitrary date? Why not just go back to, say, the Industrial Revolution, and Borgify everything then?), this movie is basically about Picard getting his revenge on the Borg, by having them personified by a hot cybernetic babe that we've never heard of before. This is also the beginning of "Picard, action hero," a persona he never had before Generations.

2. Insurrection: Why on Earth would Picard and his crew defy the Federation's order to evacuate a small group of people from a planet (of which they weren't even natives of) even though this planet's effects could save untold millions of people dying in the Dominion War? Because it's just Picard being an action hero again.

3. Nemesis: Hmmm, let's see...Picard finds out he has a teenage evil clone created by the Romulans 20 years before, even though the Romulans would have had no idea back then that Picard would have been in any way influential. He suddenly has a penchant for being the 24th century's version of Mario Andretti, even though up to that point he's never shown the slightest interest in recklessly driving fast-moving ground vehicles. And that's just the start...

Let me also point out that after Generations, Picard still has the exact same crew from the Ent-D for the next eight years, even though logically they should all have moved up in rank or gotten other postings in that time, especially if there was a war going on.

 

[Kirk Prime]

But as far as canon is concerned, it's just a theory not a fact. Because only CBS has the authority to decide whether your theory is right and Kirk is actually alive. You don't have that power. Until CBS issues a press release stating that your theory is in fact correct, it's no more supported by canon than my theory is. It's a fun thought experiment, but it's nothing more than that.

This I can't argue. That's why it's a theory, or at least an out. It's an answer to the question, "how can Kirk Prime come back?" It's all there. You don't have to do what Shatner did in The Return, though of course that can be done too. Ultimately, Paramount and the writers would be the ones to make that decision, though to bring a character back who has died, they need a plausible explanation.

It's a lot simpler under Roddenberry rules, but, it's more Doc Brownish under Abrams rules. Either way, it does work. In a world of nostalgia, combined with success of Star Wars, even at 86 years old, it's not impossible that someone might make a decision to use Shatner again, especially now that de-aging makeup has progressed to the point where Kurt Russell can look like he did in the 1980s.

The door is open.

Moving to your theory that Picard never left the nexus. I think the way all movies and TV shows went after Generations, combined with writers' intent, really seals the deal that he did in fact, leave the nexus. For one, if he didn't, that means all Star Trek since 1994, Kelvin Universe included, is all a function of Picard's nexus imagination. It would mean that Soran won, and everyone is dead. It would invalidate about 400 episodes of Star Trek and a bunch of movies. I really don't think that could be a direction that Paramount could ever go.

It would be very hard to explain, and I just can't fathom anyone in a studio coming up with that idea.

For what it's worth, I do like your argument. You are using a plot device of one movie to explain the real world problem that Star Trek had terrible writers at the time. The First Contact one is the most creative.

 

[Dukhat]

Moving to your theory that Picard never left the nexus. I think the way all movies and TV shows went after Generations, combined with writers' intent, really seals the deal that he did in fact, leave the nexus. For one, if he didn't, that means all Star Trek since 1994, Kelvin Universe included, is all a function of Picard's nexus imagination. It would mean that Soran won, and everyone is dead. It would invalidate about 400 episodes of Star Trek and a bunch of movies. I really don't think that could be a direction that Paramount could ever go.

For the record, I have no illusions that my theory would be at all accepted by CBS, nor would I even want it to be. As I mentioned before, it was just a fun thought experiment that came about because of how Generations played out. It made absolutely no sense to me that Guinan and Soran built up the Nexus as this awesome place where you'll never want to leave and won't care about the real world, and the first thing Picard does when he gets there is to decide he wants to leave. And then immediately he is confronted by Guinan's "echo," who tells him that he must team up with James T. Kirk to go back and fight Soran. But what if that wasn't Guinan's echo? What if it was the Nexus itself trying to keep Picard there by making him think he's going back to the real world when in fact he isn't? And then each successive movie paints Picard as more and more of an "action hero," something he definitely wasn't in real life. But what if that was what he secretly desired to be, though? We all wish that we were something that we're not. The Nexus started making that happen for Picard, to the point where he couldn't distinguish reality from fantasy anymore. And there are factors in each movie and successive TV series that link back to Picard in some way so that it's possible to theorize that they are also just part of his fantasy.

(Although I will point out that the Abrams films don't necessarily have to be part of this, since the only link they have to the prime universe is Prime Spock and Nero, not Picard.)

 

[Kirk Prime]

Keep in mind though that neither Guinan nor Soran were human. Star Trek always tended to distinguish humans even with The Cage, when Pike would rather die than live in captivity, even under pleasant circumstances.

There just could be an innate ability of humans to want to escape.

Another distinction is that neither Picard nor Kirk wanted to go to the nexus. Kirk didn't even know what hit him, and Picard was fighting to try to prevent Soran from going in there.

On a quick side note, why couldn't Soran just wear a space suit, and get in the thing's path?

In Picard's case, his human instincts and his lack of desire to enter the nexus in the first place easily could have been enough. The nexus was really a very fancy holodeck if you think about it.

As for what if the nexus is giving Picard what he wanted? Well, of course there's writer's intent that we have to take into account. They didn't even imply that this was a possibility.

But ignoring that, then sure, it's possible. It would be a hell of a long con by the writers, but we never saw the nexus as an entity designed to fool whatever is inside it from trying to escape. It would almost require an intelligent life form manipulating things.

I think if we look at canon, we have to take things at face value unless otherwise shown.

Your theory could work even if Picard wasn't an action hero and he went back to every day activities like we saw on the series. I would think Picard's fantasy would not allow the Enterprise D to be destroyed though. He probably also would have made himself the guy who stopped Soran, rather than having Kirk do the work.

I think your theory has some philosophical aspects to it, but the big thing is that it doesn't seem that the nexus is alive. If the nexus was interested in keeping Picard there, why have Guinan even appear to him to explain these things? And why NOT have Guinan exit to join the fight?

As for the Abrams movies, I agree that the only link to the prime universe is Spock, but going back to intent, the comics that showed how Spock ended up in the Kelvin universe involved the Enterprise E. It doesn't really make much sense that Picard would either get rid of his own timeline, or create the Kelvin universe and relive Kirk's adventures.

 

[Trekkin]

We do see the Prime timeline continued after Nero went through the wormhole.

Nero and Spock didn't get pulled in at the same time. Spock's flashback has him see Nero get caught, then himself. If the Prime timeline changed after Nero time traveled, Spock shouldn't have been able to follow. Because Spock Prime should have no longer existed, or at least not in those circumstances.

If it was all just a giant loop, then his reaction to Kirk, Scotty, and the destruction of Vulcan (which we see, but Kirk doesn't) would not have been surprise or shock.

Unless he had a First Contact Borg-Technobabblator. It's amazing how those things can paper over little bits of bullshit for plot convenience.

 

[Dukhat]

Keep in mind though that neither Guinan nor Soran were human. Star Trek always tended to distinguish humans even with The Cage, when Pike would rather die than live in captivity, even under pleasant circumstances.

There just could be an innate ability of humans to want to escape.

I've actually heard this before. And I kinda call BS on it. If the Nexus acted differently toward humans than it did toward El-Aurians, then this could have been addressed in the film as the reason why Picard and Kirk could so easily leave. But it wasn't. Guinan just says one thing, and Picard does another, and the writers simply didn't care why. It was just glossed over.

Another distinction is that neither Picard nor Kirk wanted to go to the nexus. Kirk didn't even know what hit him, and Picard was fighting to try to prevent Soran from going in there.

But Guinan and Soran didn't want to go into the Nexus either when they originally went there on the Lakul. They didn't even know what it was when they entered it.

In Picard's case, his human instincts and his lack of desire to enter the nexus in the first place easily could have been enough. The nexus was really a very fancy holodeck if you think about it.

As for what if the nexus is giving Picard what he wanted? Well, of course there's writer's intent that we have to take into account. They didn't even imply that this was a possibility.

Here's how I see it: Picard's initial Nexus fantasy involved a family he never had, and a nephew who came back from the dead. It was what he wanted at the time, since he had just learned of Robert and Rene's death and was worried the family line would die with him. However, he was quick enough to realize that it was just a fantasy, and that his most pressing need was to get back to the real world to stop Soran. So the Nexus then changed the fantasy from the fake family to something more believable to Picard, that of him returning to Veridian III. And then to add some sugar on top of the fantasy, the Nexus throws in a fake James T. Kirk to help and then conveniently die. Never mind that it made no sense to take Kirk back at all, because if Picard had the power to travel anywhere in time, he could have just gone further back and stopped Soran before they even found him on that space station. He could have had his entire crew help him once he explained what was going on. It's not like things like this hadn't happened before (heck, it happened right before Generations in AGT.) But Picard needed to go back to that particular point because it allowed him to begin his transition to "action hero."

Your theory could work even if Picard wasn't an action hero and he went back to every day activities like we saw on the series. I would think Picard's fantasy would not allow the Enterprise D to be destroyed though. He probably also would have made himself the guy who stopped Soran, rather than having Kirk do the work.

Was Picard aware that the Ent-D had been destroyed? If so, then it would have had to be integrated into his fantasy. But if not, then for all we know Picard was ready for a new ship. And he didn't believe he could stop Soran alone. He knew he needed Kirk's help, so there wouldn't have been a point to Picard doing all the work.

I think your theory has some philosophical aspects to it, but the big thing is that it doesn't seem that the nexus is alive. If the nexus was interested in keeping Picard there, why have Guinan even appear to him to explain these things? And why NOT have Guinan exit to join the fight?

As I said, in my theory, "Guinan's echo" wasn't that at all. It was just the Nexus reorienting Picard's fantasy. And a macho action hero doesn't need a woman helping him fight, does he? (BTW, that was just a joke.)

As for the Abrams movies, I agree that the only link to the prime universe is Spock, but going back to intent, the comics that showed how Spock ended up in the Kelvin universe involved the Enterprise E. It doesn't really make much sense that Picard would either get rid of his own timeline, or create the Kelvin universe and relive Kirk's adventures.

Neither I nor CBS consider the comics to be canon, so for me at least that's not a problem.