General Trek Questions and Observations

[at Quark's]

Kirk near the end of Errand of Mercy:

KIRK: I'm embarrassed. I was furious with the Organians for stopping a war I didn't want. We think of ourselves as the most powerful beings in the universe. It's unsettling to discover that we're wrong.

Well, except that he had already met the Archons at that point, Trelane, the Thasians, and other races far more powerful than / far in advance of themselves. So, what gives?

 

[tesral]

Kirk near the end of Errand of Mercy:

KIRK: I'm embarrassed. I was furious with the Organians for stopping a war I didn't want. We think of ourselves as the most powerful beings in the universe. It's unsettling to discover that we're wrong.

Well, except that he had already met the Archons at that point, Trelane, the Thasians, and other races far more powerful than / far in advance of themselves. So, what gives?

Kirk just lucky I guess.

 

[cooleddie74]

Kirk near the end of Errand of Mercy:

KIRK: I'm embarrassed. I was furious with the Organians for stopping a war I didn't want. We think of ourselves as the most powerful beings in the universe. It's unsettling to discover that we're wrong.

Well, except that he had already met the Archons at that point, Trelane, the Thasians, and other races far more powerful than / far in advance of themselves. So, what gives?

Hubris. And sometimes the scripts being written out of shooting order.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk near the end of Errand of Mercy:

KIRK: I'm embarrassed. I was furious with the Organians for stopping a war I didn't want. We think of ourselves as the most powerful beings in the universe. It's unsettling to discover that we're wrong.

Well, except that he had already met the Archons at that point, Trelane, the Thasians, and other races far more powerful than / far in advance of themselves. So, what gives?

More a matter of control over their destiny and choices type of power. It's deeply unsettling to humans to be told we are not in control.

 

[gweeps]

Kirk near the end of Errand of Mercy:

KIRK: I'm embarrassed. I was furious with the Organians for stopping a war I didn't want. We think of ourselves as the most powerful beings in the universe. It's unsettling to discover that we're wrong.

Well, except that he had already met the Archons at that point, Trelane, the Thasians, and other races far more powerful than / far in advance of themselves. So, what gives?

If I remember correctly, those other races showed their powers pretty quickly.

 

[Tiberius]

Because they were made later. Should have said no recent or contemoprary culture. You do not hear about 22nd or 23rd century playwrights or writers. No modern, to them, bands or music.

Why is Picard's favorite writer someone doing Hard Boiled Detective circa 1940. Why not a post WWIII cyberpunk HB detective?

To be fair, even if they did this, it would mean nothing to us.

If they talk about Shakespeare, we can understand what they mean. If they talking about the writings of Allan Marylebone, then it means nothing to us.

Although, Bashir and Garak did have a discussion about contemporary Cardassian writing.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Well, except that he had already met the Archons at that point, Trelane, the Thasians, and other races far more powerful than / far in advance of themselves. So, what gives?

Maybe he means more powerful and interested in effecting lasting, meaningful change. Not merely picking a pet human, or playing with a starship crew like a novel toy.

 

[dupersuper]

Well, except that he had already met the Archons at that point, Trelane, the Thasians, and other races far more powerful than / far in advance of themselves. So, what gives?

Weren't they the Archons?

 

[cooleddie74]

The Archons weren't the humanoid people of planet Beta III, they were the Federation crew from 2167 who survived the destruction of the U.S.S. Archon and ended up on the planet's surface, being assimilated into the population. The only really advanced technology on Beta III were ancient artifacts like the self-powered light panel from 6,000 years earlier, the Lawgivers' absorption tools and equipment and the Landru computer system.

Archons weren't a species.

 

[at Quark's]

The Archons weren't the humanoid people of planet Beta III, they were the Federation crew from 2167 who survived the destruction of the U.S.S. Archon and ended up on the planet's surface, being assimilated into the population. The only really advanced technology on Beta III were ancient artifacts like the self-powered light panel from 6,000 years earlier, the Lawgivers' absorption tools and equipment and the Landru computer system.

Archons weren't a species.

My bad, got them mixed up. I was thinking of that species of Return to Tomorrow but that's much later, obviously.

Even so, I could simply substitute the Metrons for them, which they also met before the Organians. They also assessed how 'primitive' humans were, even if they did not interfere largescale.

Perhaps that there's something to @Laura Cynthia Chambers 's reply, that it's the combination of being more powerful and interested in effecting a lasting, meaningful change.

More a matter of control over their destiny and choices type of power. It's deeply unsettling to humans to be told we are not in control.

More often than it would perhaps seem at first glance, being in control is an illusion anyway.

 

[MarkusTay]

Is it just me, or do the modern (post-TOS) Klingons appear far less honorable than the originals? Or at the very least, not at all as honorable as they claim to be? Truth be told, the ONLY Klingon I see depicted that actually follows the 'Klingon Ideals' perfectly is Worf, making him very much like Spock in this regard (being so worried about not being a 'true member of his race', he over-emphasizes their qualities beyond the norm).

I find them duplicitous, opportunist, unduly aggressive (why be aggressive toward species you are allied or have trade agreements with?), and basically, dishonorable. I am sure this will piss some people off here, but the bottom line is they use Cloaking Devices - a tech designed to SNEAK UP on unwary prey. In what universe is that an honorable way to fight opponents? If anything, they have become masters of the 'cheap shot', just like the Romulans.

And I came to this realization while trying to research cloaking devices in ST: It seems there was a period of time where they did not use them (when they had already used them before). We know the Klingons have a lot of internal strife, so perhaps certain clans feel the same way - that using cloaks is not an honorable way to do battle? I just don't see this honor-thing they love to go on about. Seems to me Worf read some outdated history books and is trying to be the idealized version of a Klingon, instead of a real one, who would stab you in the back just to take your stuff (because we have seen Klingons raid colonies for resources, firing on civilians/women & children to do so).

 

[fireproof78]

Is it just me, or do the modern (post-TOS) Klingons appear far less honorable than the originals? Or at the very least, not at all as honorable as they claim to be? Truth be told, the ONLY Klingon I see depicted that actually follows the 'Klingon Ideals' perfectly is Worf, making him very much like Spock in this regard (being so worried about not being a 'true member of his race', he over-emphasizes their qualities beyond the norm).

I find them duplicitous, opportunist, unduly aggressive (why be aggressive toward species you are allied or have trade agreements with?), and basically, dishonorable. I am sure this will piss some people off here, but the bottom line is they use Cloaking Devices - a tech designed to SNEAK UP on unwary prey. In what universe is that an honorable way to fight opponents? If anything, they have become masters of the 'cheap shot', just like the Romulans.

And I came to this realization while trying to research cloaking devices in ST: It seems there was a period of time where they did not use them (when they had already used them before). We know the Klingons have a lot of internal strife, so perhaps certain clans feel the same way - that using cloaks is not an honorable way to do battle? I just don't see this honor-thing they love to go on about. Seems to me Worf read some outdated history books and is trying to be the idealized version of a Klingon, instead of a real one, who would stab you in the back just to take your stuff (because we have seen Klingons raid colonies for resources, firing on civilians/women & children to do so).

Worf is someone who identified the strong roots of Klingon heritage and created them in to an ideal. Except, as demonstrated throughout TNG Klingons do not live up to this ideal. That's kind of Worf's whole journey is making peace with the fact that the things he finds valuable in his cultural heritage are not always worked out in the day to day living.

And it should be noted that honor for Klingons was not always the emphasized trait. Kor in "Errand of Mercy" emphasis glory and strength and triumph over his enemies vs. the honor of battle. Honor didn't really become a Klingon trait until Star Trek III with Kruge going "You'll be remembered with honor," and the "Q'pla" salute that came with that film.

What I think is important, and what Discovery did so well, is showcase that the Great Houses of the Klingon Empire all had their own ideas and ideals. And that Klingon culture was not monolithic.

I think Worf read a lot of the life and teachings of Kahless, rather than all the other aspects of Klingon history. If one were to take an in universe explanation. But, I don't think this a new thing. The idea of Klingons without honor goes back to TNG.

 

[tesral]

TOS Klingons do not exhibit honor. They were slimy bastards. They were a stand in for the USSR.

Worf is a Klingon fundamentalist, following what he sees as Honor to a high degree, more Klingon than thou if you will.

Other Klingons pay some service to the ideal of honor to one degree or another.

 

[at Quark's]

In my view, neither the TOS nor TNG klingons really adhered to an honor concept (though we perhaps need to keep in mind that to the Klingons 'nothing is more honorable than victory'). The difference just being that the TOS Klingons were more straightforward about it, and didn't pay a ridiculous amount of lip service to this supposed guiding principle.

Worf seems 'more Klingon than the Klingons' in the same way that some immigrants from another culture can become more conservative and rigid in observing and interpreting their original culture customs and ideas than people actually still living in that culture. I sometimes wonder if that analogy was made purposefully.

 

[MarkusTay]

I always felt that the 'personality types' of the Klingons and Romulans were swapped after the TOS (during one of the first movies), and just the other day I was reading something that said they legitimately were - that in one of those early movies* the baddie was supposed to be the Romulans, who were then swapped-out for the Klingons, but the script was left the same, which then gave the 'honorable' vibe the TOS Romulans had to the Klingons, and the Romulans became the bloodthirsty war-mongers.

Anyhow, I was glad to read that, because all these years I had felt that way and then it was finally confirmed, and there is a very RW reason behind it. I just wish I recall where I read it. LOL

What I think is important, and what Discovery did so well, is showcase that the Great Houses of the Klingon Empire all had their own ideas and ideals. And that Klingon culture was not monolithic.

You are making me want to watch that now... NO! I won't do it! {stick fingers in ears and goes "la la la la la.." really loud}

But yeah, thats been my assumption for awhile now, and that time period when the Klingons stopped using Cloaks ("No capes!") was when one of the more 'Conservative' (Kahles-following) Houses was in charge.


*Probably the movie you mentioned - Star Trek III

 

[Kor]

I always felt that the 'personality types' of the Klingons and Romulans were swapped after the TOS (during one of the first movies), and just the other day I was reading something that said they legitimately were - that in one of those early movies the baddie was supposed to be the Romulans, who were then swapped-out for the Klingons, but the script was left the same, which then gave the 'honorable' vibe the TOS Romulans had to the Klingons, and the klingons became somehting akin to bloodthirsty war-mongers.

Anyhow, I was glad to read that, because all these years I had felt that way and then it was finally confirmed, and there is a very RW reason behind it. I just wish I recall where I read it. LOL
You are making me want to watch that now... NO! I won't do it! {stick fingers in ears and goes "la la la la la.." really loud}

But yeah, thats been my assumption for awhile now, and that time period when the Klingons stopped using Cloaks ("No capes!") was when one of the more 'Conservative' (Kahles-following) Houses was in charge.

Star Trek III: The Search for Spock. But the background on it is somewhat different from that. Yes, there was supposed to be a Romulan element. That's why the ship is called a Bird of Prey. But reportedly, the early story idea with Romulans as the antagonists did not give them the characterization that we got in the final product with Kruge and co. The Romulan commander would have been a more stoic and thoughtful character like the one in "Balance of Terror." However, I don't think there was ever actually a script that had the Romulans. The earliest scripts have the Klingons as the antagonists, and the ship was a Romulan vessel that they had stolen. But that bit was lost along the way to final draft. And there really isn't much "honorable" about the Klingons in TSFS. The only mention of the word "honor" from a TOS movie-era Klingon was in TSFS when Commander Kruge told his own lover Valkris that she would be remembered with honor, right before he blasted her to smithereens. The whole Klingon "honor" business didn't become a thing until TNG.

Also, the "Qa'pla" salute/greeting means "success," not "honor." "Batlh" is the Klingon word for "honor."

Kor

 

[NCC-73515]

It's Qapla'

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Worf is overcompensating for his humanness by adoption, by trying to be a better, more idealized version of what he thinks/was told Klingons should be, than the others are being.

He's a letter of the law guy, more interested in black and white than shades of gray. If he gives in, it'll make him feel like he isn't good enough, honorable enough.

 

[tesral]

Worf is overcompensating for his humanness by adoption, by trying to be a better, more idealized version of what he thinks/was told Klingons should be, than the others are being.

He's a letter of the law guy, more interested in black and white than shades of gray. If he gives in, it'll make him feel like he isn't good enough, honorable enough.

Look up "Fundamentalist".

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Worf is overcompensating for his humanness by adoption, by trying to be a better, more idealized version of what he thinks/was told Klingons should be, than the others are being.

He's a letter of the law guy, more interested in black and white than shades of gray. If he gives in, it'll make him feel like he isn't good enough, honorable enough.