General thoughts on ENT?

[Jedi Marso]

Phlox said to Archer that he found the cure to their disease and then talked Archer into withholding that cure.

What part of that didn't you get?

I wasn't sure if that was the episode you were referring to or not.

Now, as to the subject matter: I'm not sure that withholding a cure meets the technical definition of genocide. I looked up the dictionary definition and you could definitely argue it either way. Clearly you DO think it constitutes genocide. Without the existence of the second sapient species on that planet, the argument against withholding the cure would be a lot tougher to make. Even with them, it's a hard, hard call.

That's why this episode is one of my favorite episodes of Trek, period. The decision IS morally ambiguous, no matter which side of the argument you come down on. Withholding a cure from the natives is not the same thing as phasering the surface of the planet and destroying their civilization; more a matter of letting nature take its course, which is something the Federation does in later centuries with often horrific results for those left to their own fate.

What would have made an interesting follow up to this episode (and again, here's another argument for arc-driven seasons like we're going to see in DSC), was what the public reaction would have been on Earth and Deboula and within the ranks of the IME if Enterprise's mission logs concerning this world were made public. Imagine the populations of two worlds embroiled in an ethical and moral debate about how the situation was handled, to include teams of 'rogue' doctors attempting to travel there and perhaps running a Starfleet blockade to supply the cure to the locals. (Or rogues attempting an information raid on Starfleet HQ to obtain the system's coordinates)

Talk about stumbling blocks in the way of forming the Federation in the first place! This sort of stuff should have been some of the meat and potatoes of the series, not a one-off episode where the species and their fate is never even brought up again.

 

[BJ Wagner]

I wasn't sure if that was the episode you were referring to or not.

Now, as to the subject matter: I'm not sure that withholding a cure meets the technical definition of genocide. I looked up the dictionary definition and you could definitely argue it either way. Clearly you DO think it constitutes genocide. Without the existence of the second sapient species on that planet, the argument against withholding the cure would be a lot tougher to make. Even with them, it's a hard, hard call.

That's why this episode is one of my favorite episodes of Trek, period. The decision IS morally ambiguous, depending on which side of the argument you come down on. Withholding a cure from the natives is not the same thing as phasering the surface of the planet and destroying their civilization; more a matter of letting nature take its course, which is something the Federation does in later centuries with often horrific results for those left to their own fate.

What would have made an interesting follow up to this episode (and again, here's another argument for arc-driven seasons like we're going to see in DSC), was what the public reaction would have been on Earth and Deboula and within the ranks of the IME if Enterprise's mission logs concerning this world were made public. Imagine the populations of two worlds embroiled in an ethical and moral debate about how the situation was handled, to include teams of 'rogue' doctors attempting to travel there and perhaps running a Starfleet blockade to supply the cure to the locals.

Talk about stumbling blocks in the way of forming the Federation in the first place! This sort of stuff should have been some of the meat and potatoes of the series, not a one-off episode where the species and their fate is never even brought up again.

Well said. I agree with you 100%. This and stories like, Damage, from season 3 would have been really interesting to revisit. The Prime Directive and Star Fleet's policies had to have started somewhere, and the reasons for them probably grew out of cost and understanding of what should have been done differently. What a missed opportunity.

 

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Regarding Dear Doctor and genocide, some years ago I wrote this review, which is on my sadly neglected website, where you can find other reviews as well.

 

[locutus101]

I wasn't sure if that was the episode you were referring to or not.

Now, as to the subject matter: I'm not sure that withholding a cure meets the technical definition of genocide. I looked up the dictionary definition and you could definitely argue it either way. Clearly you DO think it constitutes genocide. Without the existence of the second sapient species on that planet, the argument against withholding the cure would be a lot tougher to make. Even with them, it's a hard, hard call.

That's why this episode is one of my favorite episodes of Trek, period. The decision IS morally ambiguous, no matter which side of the argument you come down on. Withholding a cure from the natives is not the same thing as phasering the surface of the planet and destroying their civilization; more a matter of letting nature take its course, which is something the Federation does in later centuries with often horrific results for those left to their own fate.

What would have made an interesting follow up to this episode (and again, here's another argument for arc-driven seasons like we're going to see in DSC), was what the public reaction would have been on Earth and Deboula and within the ranks of the IME if Enterprise's mission logs concerning this world were made public. Imagine the populations of two worlds embroiled in an ethical and moral debate about how the situation was handled, to include teams of 'rogue' doctors attempting to travel there and perhaps running a Starfleet blockade to supply the cure to the locals. (Or rogues attempting an information raid on Starfleet HQ to obtain the system's coordinates)

Talk about stumbling blocks in the way of forming the Federation in the first place! This sort of stuff should have been some of the meat and potatoes of the series, not a one-off episode where the species and their fate is never even brought up again.

I am sorry that you are unable to see the obvious but when someone has the cure for a disease and when all he has to do is explain to the people needing that cure how to make it. His refusal to tell them makes that person a monster and a murderer of all the people who will die because of that refusal, in this case millions. It's equivalent (multiplied by a million) to someone passing by someone having a heart attack and letting him die without even calling an ambulance.

Just so you know: If you do that you are a criminal and you could do jail time.

But I am not even talking legalistic. What Phlox and Archer did (if we were to consider them real instead of what they are, IE the wobbly creations of some negligent writer) is horrible. It's a crime against humanity, in the sense that no human being should ever be guilty of such atrocity.

I could go on and on, on that subject but I believe that I've said enough.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Phlox said to Archer that he found the cure to their disease and then talked Archer into withholding that cure.

What part of that didn't you get?

I am sorry that you are unable to see the obvious but when someone has the cure for a disease and when all he has to do is explain to the people needing that cure how to make it. His refusal to tell them makes that person a monster and a murderer of all the people who will die because of that refusal, in this case millions. It's equivalent (multiplied by a million) to someone passing by someone having a heart attack and letting him die without even calling an ambulance.

Just so you know: If you do that you are a criminal and you could do jail time.

But I am not even talking legalistic. What Phlox and Archer did (if we were to consider them real instead of what they are, IE the wobbly creations of some negligent writer) is horrible. It's a crime against humanity, in the sense that no human being should ever be guilty of such atrocity.

I could go on and on, on that subject but I believe that I've said enough.

And if by interfering to save the one species you condemn the other to death or arrest its development, is that not ALSO arguably genocide?

Side note: you need to tone it down a bit. It's possible to discuss these things without getting all angry and argumentative. Maybe it's somehow a personal issue with you- I don't know. If it is and you can't talk about it without getting emotional, I suggest you leave it alone. I don't come here to 'win internet arguments.' I like Trek and I like talking about Trek with other fans. If you are incapable of doing that without getting upset, find someone else to converse with.

 

[locutus101]

And if by interfering to save the one species you condemn the other to death or arrest its development, is that not ALSO arguably genocide?
.

That's the bullshit that Phlox served Archer on toast, but it doesn't have any basis in reality. The writers of this episode don't know much about the sciences, obviously.

You realize that the reason you apparently endorse for letting the currently dominant species die is comparable to the reason given by Hitler to exterminate the Jews, don't you?

"We need breathing room"

Rings any bells?

.

Side note: you need to tone it down a bit. It's possible to discuss these things without getting all angry and argumentative. Maybe it's somehow a personal issue with you- I don't know. If it is and you can't talk about it without getting emotional, I suggest you leave it alone. I don't come here to 'win internet arguments.' I like Trek and I like talking about Trek with other fans. If you are incapable of doing that without getting upset, find someone else to converse with.

I tend to think that mass murder is a serious matter.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

"Dear Doctor" always does this. *sigh*

locutus, please step back and take a breath. This is a discussion board. We welcome all opinions, and it's not polite to jump all over one of your fellow members simply for having a different opinion than you.

This episode presents a classic Trek moral dilemma. Of course there are differing points of view - the intention of the writers was to fashion a thought-provoking piece. There is no "right" or "wrong" to personal opinions expressed here. They are all worthy and can make for a compelling discussion - as long as we are all courteous.

Jedi Marso, this goes for you too. If you have an issue with another member, please resist the urge to lecture and instead hit the handy Notify Moderator button.

Rather than derail this thread over the 294657th discussion of "Dear Doctor," interested parties can start a new thread to discuss it...politely.

 

[tssurfer]

Ever seen the real life NASA Enterprise....made in the 70s STfans made nasa change the name from the Orbiter to the Enterprise! it actually wasn't meant for space exploration or space flight at all, it was made just for orbital flights.

 

[locutus101]

Ever seen the real life NASA Enterprise....made in the 70s STfans made nasa change the name from the Orbiter to the Enterprise! it actually wasn't meant for space exploration or space flight at all, it was made just for orbital flights.

Splendid!

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Ever seen the real life NASA Enterprise....made in the 70s STfans made nasa change the name from the Orbiter to the Enterprise! it actually wasn't meant for space exploration or space flight at all, it was made just for orbital flights.

Not "orbital" flights but atmospheric drop-test flights. It had no engines or other necessary space launch apparatus.

 

[uniderth]

What the heck is this Star Trek: Enterprise you all talking about? I think you're all delusional. Everyone knows the most recent Star Trek television series was Voyager.

 

[locutus101]

What the heck is this Star Trek: Enterprise you all talking about? I think you're all delusional. Everyone knows the most recent Star Trek television series was Voyager.

That would be a shame as there are something like a dozen of episodes, most of them at the end of the series, that are really worth watching.

 

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Ever seen the real life NASA Enterprise....made in the 70s STfans made nasa change the name from the Orbiter to the Enterprise!

It was to have been called Constitution but was then changed to Enterprise.

And yes, I saw it a few years ago when I visited the Smithsonian annex by Dulles International Airport. I highly recommend a visit there. I actually planned for an evening flight back home across the pond because I wanted to spend an afternoon there.
A year later they replaced it with the Discovery and moved the E to New York.
Photo by me:

 

[T'Nara]

What the heck is this Star Trek: Enterprise you all talking about? I think you're all delusional. Everyone knows the most recent Star Trek television series was Voyager.

Haha. Very funny.
Actually, you would be missing a lot if you do not watch ENT. For whatever its weaknesses, it still has a number of gems, some likeable characters, several interesting adversary and a lot of good backstories of the things encountered in the in-universe future.

 

[Philip Guyott]

I came across this video which shows the opening credits but with the music originally intended for it before it was replaced by the 'Faith of the Heart' song.

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[Tenacity]

^ Doesn't really "grab you" does it?

 

[Seven of Five]

No. I like it more than Faith of the Heart though. Having said that, the senior staff breaking into a screeching version of Bohemian Rhapsody would be better.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I never understood the hate for "FAITH OF THE HEART." I mean, it's not like fans are expected to rock out to it, or anything. It's a solid song, professionally performed, it serves its purpose. Is this just a complaint that people as a show of solidarity, or something? Like nothing uniting as a common enemy does, kind of a thing?

 

[locutus101]

I never understood the hate for "FAITH OF THE HEART." I mean, it's not like fans are expected to rock out to it, or anything. It's a solid song, professionally performed, it serves its purpose. Is this just a complaint that people as a show of solidarity, or something? Like nothing uniting as a common enemy does, kind of a thing?

I like the mirror opening credits song better.

 

[BJ Wagner]

I never understood the hate for "FAITH OF THE HEART." I mean, it's not like fans are expected to rock out to it, or anything. It's a solid song, professionally performed, it serves its purpose. Is this just a complaint that people as a show of solidarity, or something? Like nothing uniting as a common enemy does, kind of a thing?

Me neither. It worked for me, and I don't usually skip by the opening credits for this show on disk like I do for some others.