It’s the pinnacle of all of Trek, I would say.
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- Thread starter Lord Garth
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It’s the pinnacle of all of Trek, I would say.
Quite possibly. The only two other serious candidates are "The City on the Edge Forever" and "The Best of Both Worlds".
The thing that made TWOK great (amongst many) was that the material took itself seriously and was very effective drama without OVER-doing it. The earlier TOS movies did that effectively, while the later ones were filled with too much audience winking.
Starfleet, and by way of that, the Federation, did not know how to handle the Klingons, when 100 years previously, the Vulcans did, and Burnham had to get that information by long distance mind meld. Why? Why wasn't that taught in command training. Contact with Klingons was rare by then, but it had happened and it was violent. The Federation had indeed become a Earth club and the information and techniques that worked had been deliberately dropped over naive idealism.
Burnham was acting as sole de-facto representative of the Vulcans on board a human-centric Starfleet ship that might as well have had a UESPA logo on it instead of UFP markings. The Vulcan method was not going to be listened to. Georgiou was in lock step with Admiral "When we're not fighting, we're letting you paint targets on us" Anderson.
Georgiou stood her ground without the tactical means to back herself up. She could have made a tactical retreat back to to the task force en route in order to engage the Klingons with combined strength, but only if they were prepared to immediately attack, which apparently they were within their rights to do. If she was going to stan, her only option was preemptive strike or she might as well have scuttled her own ship.
While Tkuvma may have used it as further justification, as you say, he was going to fight one way or another. It may have given the Klingons pause that here was an enemy that would play on rules they were familiar with and not be prey. "This motherfucker is crazy. The Feds are loaded for bear." Tkuvma did not have a united force behind him, and after he died the momentum of being able to pick apart a disjointed force that had already had its first major defeat kept the movement going.
Burnham was right, but she was wrong. She should not have committed mutiny. She should have given her testimony in the court martial that would have followed the battle if Georgiou had lived and the ship had been lost, if tradition survived and captains must stand court martial if they lose a ship.
anyway that is how i read it.
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I go back to the street analogy. I grew up in a rough neighborhood. If a bully picked on you, they did it because they didn't expect you to fight back. I used to get bullied, then I fought back. I was left alone after that. They were the Klingons, I was the Vulcan.
The key difference in the Battle at the Binary Stars is: unlike with a bully who doesn't expect a fight, this was gang versus an enemy. The gang is looking for a fight with a rival. And anything the rival says or does will be twisted into a reason to fight them.
T'Kuvma's not a bully, he's a gang leader who wants to fight this enemy, the Federation, and then show his rival gangs he's got balls. He's taking on the Federation he's that damn sure of himself. He's got the courage to go up against a foe that outnumbers him. The other Klingons, he was probably gambling, would respect the show of strength and fearlessness.
By showing off his bravado, he was hoping the other Klingons would follow him. He could use the Federation to rally them all together. "As much as we all hate each other, at least we're still Klingons! Death to the Federation!"
So, as far as I see it, if the Shenzhou did fire first, T'Kuvma wouldn't have backed down at all. No way, no how.
Georgiou was right not to listen to what Burnham was saying because the situation with the Vulcans from before and the situation with the Federation now were completely different.
The key difference in the Battle at the Binary Stars is: unlike with a bully who doesn't expect a fight, this was gang versus an enemy. The gang is looking for a fight with a rival. And anything the rival says or does will be twisted into a reason to fight them.
T'Kuvma's not a bully, he's a gang leader who wants to fight this enemy, the Federation, and then show his rival gangs he's got balls. He's taking on the Federation he's that damn sure of himself. He's got the courage to go up against a foe that outnumbers him. The other Klingons, he was probably gambling, would respect the show of strength and fearlessness.
By showing off his bravado, he was hoping the other Klingons would follow him. He could use the Federation to rally them all together. "As much as we all hate each other, at least we're still Klingons! Death to the Federation!"
So, as far as I see it, if the Shenzhou did fire first, T'Kuvma wouldn't have backed down at all. No way, no how.
Georgiou was right not to listen to what Burnham was saying because the situation with the Vulcans from before and the situation with the Federation now were completely different.
I love the film, and it's one fantastic way of doing Star Trek. My irritation is that it became the only way of doing Trek, at least in the cinema. That's in no way the fault of Twok itself of course, but it does make a tiny, weeny bit of me wish it hadn't happened. Or, been less popular, or something. What makes it worse is that STIV came after it, showed that you could do something different, was very successful at it, and was promptly ignored by its successors which reverted to the Khan model pretty quickly.
In fairness to First Contact, at least they flipped it by making Picard the one who secretly wanted revenge. But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
Shinzon, Nero, Benedict's Khan, and (have to look up the name) Krall -- wasn't that a movie? No that was Krull -- all wanted revenge. The revenge angle is the only thing I have a problem with. There's Spock screaming "KHAAAAN!!!!!" too and mirroring the death scene in ID, but those were limited to that one film.
Picard lamenting the passage of time in NEM with his crew moving on makes sense within the story, and Pine's Kirk getting depressed over turning 30 (similar to Kirk turning ~50 in TWOK) because he was now older than his father ever lived to be also makes sense within the story of BEY. Those are good things they got out of TWOK.
I have yet to see these movies have a Saavik-type character, on their way up but not quite there yet. Except for Valeris, who basically was supposed to be Saavik until Kim Catrall put her foot down and said she wanted to play a new character, not a third version of the same character. I'm glad she did put her foot down because otherwise the rotating Saavik actors would've been just as bad as the rotating Ziyals.
Shelby in BOBW seems kind of like a Saavik, on her way up and challenging Riker: the person in her way. I could also see Shelby reacting the same way Saavik did to the Kobyashi Maru Test. Basically my opinion of BOBW can be summed up like this: The best TNG movie technically wasn't a movie, it was The Best of Both Worlds. FC is a close second. Then there's "the rest of the TNG Films".
I'd even go so far as to say BOBW is to TNG what TWOK is to TOS.
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Actually, TVH had a very similar impact, with Paramount thinking now that Revenge and Laff Riot Trek were the magic combo. Just look to the slapstick of TFF or the sappy wink wink of TUC directly in its wake, causing some really confusing-feeling movies.
The ship is from the TNG mirror comicsSomething I've just noticed buying a Discovery T-shirt for a friend, CBS has created an official logo for "Mirror Universe" merchandise.
I thought the general consensus was that while All Good Things was the long-form TNG which should have been a movie, BOBW was marred by the relatively flaccid second part.
IMHO every two-part TNG episode save one had a mediocre to bad second part. That one exception is Chain of Command, which was awesome all the way through.
I'm only giving my own stance. "All Good Things" to me isn't a movie but a series finale, book-ending TNG with The Q Continuum putting Humanity on trial. There's a symmetry, on a narrative level, between starting with "Encounter at Farpoint" and ending with "All Good Things".
What can I say? I'm a non-conformist. I saw BOBW in the theater in 2013, when they screened it for one day to accompany the blu-ray release and that's when I came to conclusion it's a better "movie" than the actual TNG movies.
To elaborate further: Never for a second, back in 1994, did I ever think Q would allow Humanity to go into non-existence, even if the Continuum would decree it. He had a rogue streak and he enjoys tormenting Picard too much. Thus the "helping hand".
As opposed to "The Best of Both Worlds" where the Borg had every intention of assimilating Earth, assimilating the Federation, destroying Starfleet, and putting Picard through Hell by his overseeing all of it as Locutus. Picard is personally traumatized by this ordeal and it effects several others in Starfleet and beyond. "Family" was the aftermath for Picard coming to terms with what happened and "I, Borg" followed up on it. Then, over on DS9, we saw how Locutus and The Battle of Wolf 359 devastated the lives and families of survivors, through Sisko.
"The Best of Both Worlds" had consequences that Q wasn't there to fix with the snap of his fingers or help out with. It haunted Picard for years.
And it was a point where Riker finally had to come to grips with what he was doing with his life and his career, standing still next to others who were rising such as Shelby, who was constantly challenging him. If this weren't a series worried about the next episode, Riker would've transferred off to command his own ship afterwards for sure.
At the end of the story, they didn't save the day with a battle. They saved it through ingenuity and with Data putting the Borg to sleep as per Picard's suggestion. That's a non-violent Latter-Day Gene Roddenberry Star Trek solution, truer to TNG than any of the films were. It's true to what the series was and a better representation of what TNG was at its best.
Movies are all about stakes. I thought the stakes in "All Good Things" were manufactured. The Q had their fingers on the controls the entire time. In "The Best of Both Worlds", the stakes were real. Nothing was undone. Nothing was prevented that we didn't already see happen. There was no reset. To top it all off, the entire crew experienced "The Best of Both Worlds" and so did a good portion of the Alpha Quadrant. Only Picard (and Q) experienced "All Good Things".
EDIT: And how can I possibly leave out the soundtrack? "The Best of Both Worlds" has a soundtrack. A real soundtrack! It has some of Ron Jones' best work. What does "All Good Things" have? A couple of good cues, but otherwise the same standard Berman-Mandated Muzak that most Star Trek after the fourth season of TNG unfortunately had.
As opposed to "The Best of Both Worlds" where the Borg had every intention of assimilating Earth, assimilating the Federation, destroying Starfleet, and putting Picard through Hell by his overseeing all of it as Locutus. Picard is personally traumatized by this ordeal and it effects several others in Starfleet and beyond. "Family" was the aftermath for Picard coming to terms with what happened and "I, Borg" followed up on it. Then, over on DS9, we saw how Locutus and The Battle of Wolf 359 devastated the lives and families of survivors, through Sisko.
"The Best of Both Worlds" had consequences that Q wasn't there to fix with the snap of his fingers or help out with. It haunted Picard for years.
And it was a point where Riker finally had to come to grips with what he was doing with his life and his career, standing still next to others who were rising such as Shelby, who was constantly challenging him. If this weren't a series worried about the next episode, Riker would've transferred off to command his own ship afterwards for sure.
At the end of the story, they didn't save the day with a battle. They saved it through ingenuity and with Data putting the Borg to sleep as per Picard's suggestion. That's a non-violent Latter-Day Gene Roddenberry Star Trek solution, truer to TNG than any of the films were. It's true to what the series was and a better representation of what TNG was at its best.
Movies are all about stakes. I thought the stakes in "All Good Things" were manufactured. The Q had their fingers on the controls the entire time. In "The Best of Both Worlds", the stakes were real. Nothing was undone. Nothing was prevented that we didn't already see happen. There was no reset. To top it all off, the entire crew experienced "The Best of Both Worlds" and so did a good portion of the Alpha Quadrant. Only Picard (and Q) experienced "All Good Things".
EDIT: And how can I possibly leave out the soundtrack? "The Best of Both Worlds" has a soundtrack. A real soundtrack! It has some of Ron Jones' best work. What does "All Good Things" have? A couple of good cues, but otherwise the same standard Berman-Mandated Muzak that most Star Trek after the fourth season of TNG unfortunately had.
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I agree. I rewatched Best of Both Worlds a couple of months ago. The soundtrack is very good. It's better than a lot of large budget cinematic soundtracks.
Now for something totally ridiculous to lighten the mood before I watch Star Trek IV, which is where I'm up to on my re-watch. Just finished the costume today. Me, dressed up as a Maple Tree.
One day you'll be able to bribe me with this photo.
One day you'll be able to bribe me with this photo.
I don't want to camouflage my remark and be combative, but it seems yer looking a bit sappy there.Now for something totally ridiculous to lighten the mood before I watch Star Trek IV, which is where I'm up to on my re-watch. Just finished the costume today. Me, dressed up as a Maple Tree.
One day you'll be able to bribe me with this photo.
I'll just leaf the final determination for others to Fall upon.
(I can be such a hollow-weenie at times)
22nd Century transporters...cleared for bio-transport my ass!Now for something totally ridiculous to lighten the mood before I watch Star Trek IV, which is where I'm up to on my re-watch. Just finished the costume today. Me, dressed up as a Maple Tree.
One day you'll be able to bribe me with this photo.
For some stupid reason, I thought "Calypso" was coming out tomorrow, not next week.
after people get tired of talking heads monday morning quarterbacking whatever happens at the midterm elections, it will be nice to have a breath of fresh air on the tv.
Not as bad during midterms as presidential elections, but still. This I agree with. This is where newscasters become sportscasters. Sometimes I think they might as well be playing the NBA Theme in the background, as they start to go over the latest updates in the races.
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