You can easily replace Discovery with any other Trek series in that sentence.
Spoilers General Disco Chat Thread
- Thread starter Lord Garth
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You can easily replace Discovery with any other Trek series in that sentence.
Wrong! Gabrielle Burnham didn't know about the seven signals. She couldn't tell Spock about something she knew nothing about.
Wrong! Control wasn't modified back then. So it couldn't frame Spock or do anything of the sort because it hadn't been enhanced by the future A.I. yet.
Wrong!!! As she said so herself Terralysium doesn't have any technology, neither now nor in the future. So she couldn't get ADVANCED technology from a place completely devoid of it.
Wrong!!! did you even watch that episode?
Spot on!
But she did know about Spock and his dyslexia and she did try sending information to Spock. If Michael Burnham didn't send Spock the signals, Gabrielle could've sent them to Spock at a later point than when Michael drew her to them. If the Gabrielle who was in "The Red Angel" was from 3200, the Gabrielle who sent Spock the signals could've been from 3201.
We don't really know when Control was modified.
There was no life when she initially arrived there. She transported Humans from the WWIII Era to Teralysium, after which point, there was life there. Thus she changed the future. And the future can be changed incrementally (which can also be used, if someone wants to, as a cover to explain why things don't look just like they did in TOS).
Her entire mission is to change the future in such a way so that Control doesn't destroy all life it can detect. Up to that point, she hadn't succeeded yet.
You might want to dial it back a bit.
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Precisely so.
I think based on what we've seen in Season 2, it's very much possible that Control actually went bonkers on its own. The future AI that came through the time rift in Light and Shadows subverted Airiam, not Control, and by Project Daedalus, present!Control had already killed all of Section 31's leadership without any indication that the future AI in Airiam was able to contact it.
My understanding of this season is that Control went villainous on its own after Starfleet Command started to feed tactical data into it en masse, and it started moving things behind the scenes to eliminate threats to itself. The 28th century version came into the picture later and tried to use Airiam to get the Sphere data to present!Control, to close the loop and ensure its own existence. But for me, everything seems to point to Control already going evil before the future version came.
I don't think they were strictly saying that only stupid people would enjoy the show, just that the show isn't made with... "smart people" in mind and it was just having things happen to "appeal to the masses" who do not analyze things. Like with the stuff from ST09 and Spock seeing the destruction of Vulcan even though he was on a whole other planet, or the stuff they were talking about Discover apparently ignoring the "wait time" for things happening at the speed of light or even at subspace. (Plenty of times in other forms of Trek even FTL communications are plagued with wait times because of the distances involved.)
I don't watch Discovery since I don't have CBS:AA and am not going to pay for it to watch a show that, frankly, doesn't look interesting to me. And much of the stuff they show and point out in the RLM discussion pretty much confirms that I wouldn't like the show because it looks like it's just a mess, doesn't make sense, and the stories and such they're doing just aren't... "Star Trek" for me, or the kind of Star Trek I like to watch.
And, from what I can tell, their little parody pretty much summed up the problem the show has with its use of technobabble (which plagues all the Trek series, but this a big difference between how TOS used it, TNG used it, DS9 used it, Voyager used it and how apparently Discovery is using it. And the "I like science." and "The power of math!" lines. Ugh.)
RLM has the intent of this sort of sarcastic and overly critical slant on their reviews, but Mike and Rich are pretty strong Trek fans and they speak often of it and their feelings on it seem to mostly align with mine.
It just really seems Discovery is a mess and I think the bit they showed with them counting the 20-something producer credits should really showcase what a mess the show is. And the bit with the blast door to contain the torpedo explosion? Ugh.
If people like/enjoy the show fine. I don't get how that's quite possible given how this show seems to contrast so much with the rest of Trek, but... Whatever.
The fact that it "contrasts so much" is exactly the reason I like it. The TNG/VOY/ENT style of Star Trek was never my favorite. Out of all the old series, DSC resembles DS9 the most, IMO. And it took place in the TOS Era. Win-win for me, if you look at it from my point of view.
In fact, let me cut and paste a post of mine from 2016, to explain why I looked forward to the series so much.
Cutting and pasting the opening post in a thread I started on July 30, 2016 below...
Why I'm looking forward to "Star Trek: Discovery"
I dare say I think this will be the best Star Trek series. I'll put it ahead of DS9. I'll put it ahead of TOS. Yes, I said it.
Star Trek: Discovery based on everything I've read about it, feels like it'll be pushing things forward. Regardless of when the time-frame might be. From story structure to social issues to character composition.
I've always liked the design of the ship in question. Geometric, hard lines, very different.
Serialized storyline. Gender-blind. Race-blind. LGBT character (hopefully). Representation from the Roddenberry, Bennett, Berman, and Abrams era. Trying to do things that haven't been done before while looking at the DNA of selective TOS episodes to see what made the spirit of Star Trek work.
The Captain of Star Trek: Discovery might be a black woman, inspired by the real life astronaut Mae Jemison.
It'll fit in with the landscape of today's series and what I happen to watch these days. Star Trek: Discovery marks off everything on my list. This is what I was looking for all along.
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Back to the present. By and large, I'm happy that the series came out the way I hoped.
I shifted position on "social issues". I'm glad it didn't delve into those (because I'm burned out from the news now, unlike in 2016), but the reaction by some to the crew composition does expose the issues that some people still have with representation. They make an issue out of it while Discovery makes no issue of it at all.
DSC also rectified a lot of previous problems I had with Star Trek:
1. We finally get to see a proper out-and-out Klingon War where the Klingons are the Federation's enemies and the concept of friendship between the two is totally alien. The war in DS9 S4-S5 wasn't the same. They were always on the brink in TOS. And then there's ENT. Earth's first contact with the Klingons in ENT was lame. DSC finally gave me what I wanted to see.
2. The Mirror Universe. There was potential there. In TOS, it was fine, but it was a campy '60s style Mirror Universe. In DS9, they make the Terrans the Good Guys. That changes everything. In ENT, all they do is just whisper a lot and talk really softly as if that somehow makes them sound evil. So DSC finally showed a Mirror Universe that I thought did the Terrans justice, where they're in all their evil, backstabbing, cut-throat glory.
And don't listen to the YouTube Videos. A lot of those channels hate everything. Literally. Regardless of the quality. So somehow it always "sucks", no matter what. If they give any other take, they'll lose their subscribers. They can't be listened to other than in an "even a broken clock is right twice a day" sort of way. Those episodes are fun. It's my favorite version of the Mirror Universe.
3. Moving to S2. It was great to see more of Pike. Now he feels like much more to me than just The Captain Before Kirk.
4. I liked seeing more of Section 31. By the time they were introduced in DS9, the series was almost over. And though they were in ENT and Into Darkness, I didn't care, unlike other people. DSC is the first time since DS9 that they were in something that I was a fan of. And I'll take leather-clad S31 over the lame blue things they were wearing in ID any day.
And finally, just adding this in for the Hell of it:
Michelle Yeoh kicks ass. The End. Period. I don't care what anyone else says.
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The show gives characters a different interpretation of Roddenberry's vision each. Burnham has her view of the Federation's values as her compass, where she's very emotional about things she views logically. Saru has a more conventional, pragmatic view of Roddenberry's vision. Pike is Roddenberry Star Trek personified. Lorca's its direct contrast. They each represent a different point of view of The Vision.
Even the Mirror Universe. It represents Yin Yang. Not everything is absolutely one way or absolutely the other. There's a little of something else in everything. And with the very shape of Yin Yang, it can't be cut right down the middle. Burnham figures out that it's possible to make peace with the Klingons in her Universe because she sees them working with other races in the Mirror Universe. She learns something positive from going over. Something she thought was possible where, if all you see from Star Trek is "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars", you wouldn't think was possible.
Cornwell represented a DS9 Type Starfleet, in line with Sisko's reluctant mentality, where they had to do what they had to do. Burnham came back at her with how their values were all they had left, how they couldn't be compromised and that she now realized she was wrong on "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars". Burnham came up with another way. Whereas Cornwell wouldn't have, but -- deep down -- she wanted to be talked out of her "the ends justify the means" mentality that months and months of war had driven her to. Which is why Admiral Cornwell didn't put up much of a fight when Burnham and the rest of the crew stood up to her.
And on Burnham's mission to Qo'noS at the Orion Embassy, it's the first time she sees Klingons as just people instead of The Enemy. It's getting these characters to a more Roddenberrian mindset instead of them just having it to begin with. DSC shows the process of how these characters come to think this way, instead of just having it right there at the beginning and making it easy.
In retrospect, "Will You Take My Hand?" provided a nice transition before Pike took command of Disovery, bringing it further in-line with The Roddenberry Vision in Season 2.
At the beginning of the season, you'd think in Season 2 that Section 31 -- as it is -- would show why it's necessary in order to maintain the Peace and Prosperity the Federation has. That's what it leads you to think they'll show you. But then they don't do that. By the end of the season, it shows everything that's wrong with Section 31. It shows exactly why Starfleet and the Federation shouldn't lean on just Section 31.
I know I'm not going to win anyone over who isn't already won over. But with these two posts, I just wanted to explain how it's "possible" I like Discovery. Beyond things like how much I like the characters and the show in general.
Even the Mirror Universe. It represents Yin Yang. Not everything is absolutely one way or absolutely the other. There's a little of something else in everything. And with the very shape of Yin Yang, it can't be cut right down the middle. Burnham figures out that it's possible to make peace with the Klingons in her Universe because she sees them working with other races in the Mirror Universe. She learns something positive from going over. Something she thought was possible where, if all you see from Star Trek is "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars", you wouldn't think was possible.
Cornwell represented a DS9 Type Starfleet, in line with Sisko's reluctant mentality, where they had to do what they had to do. Burnham came back at her with how their values were all they had left, how they couldn't be compromised and that she now realized she was wrong on "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars". Burnham came up with another way. Whereas Cornwell wouldn't have, but -- deep down -- she wanted to be talked out of her "the ends justify the means" mentality that months and months of war had driven her to. Which is why Admiral Cornwell didn't put up much of a fight when Burnham and the rest of the crew stood up to her.
And on Burnham's mission to Qo'noS at the Orion Embassy, it's the first time she sees Klingons as just people instead of The Enemy. It's getting these characters to a more Roddenberrian mindset instead of them just having it to begin with. DSC shows the process of how these characters come to think this way, instead of just having it right there at the beginning and making it easy.
In retrospect, "Will You Take My Hand?" provided a nice transition before Pike took command of Disovery, bringing it further in-line with The Roddenberry Vision in Season 2.
At the beginning of the season, you'd think in Season 2 that Section 31 -- as it is -- would show why it's necessary in order to maintain the Peace and Prosperity the Federation has. That's what it leads you to think they'll show you. But then they don't do that. By the end of the season, it shows everything that's wrong with Section 31. It shows exactly why Starfleet and the Federation shouldn't lean on just Section 31.
I know I'm not going to win anyone over who isn't already won over. But with these two posts, I just wanted to explain how it's "possible" I like Discovery. Beyond things like how much I like the characters and the show in general.
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^ Third time this video has been posted, not only in the same thread but within the last two pages. I personally think it's better for people to put why they don't like Discovery into their own words rather than let someone else do the talking for them.
Because I don't want the same old Trek.
And, yet, DSC relies on much of older Trek. So, it's not as bad as it is made out to be. It just isn't for everyone. Which, in my opinion, is awesome.
We don't really. The DS9 war that lasted a handful of weeks and a handful of episodes got more screentime than this supposedly season long story, which really only shows like three fights total plus the sneaking around on Qonos at the end.
The first mirror universe episode was an incredible breath of fresh air in terms of how they took this blatantly silly concept from the older shows and really made it mean something. But like too many other things on this show, the longform storytelling had to ruin it by running straight back to the super-campiness and destroying Lorca's character in the process.
No, she kicks ass conditionally. Emperor Georgiou is one of the worst characters in the history of the franchise. Killing Captain Georgiou so quickly with no chance of recovering her was a massive mistake.
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Overall, I really can't agree with the idea that DSC is wildly different from what came before in terms. It feels very much like the TNG era (not the TOS era, regardless of what the dates say), it's just visually darker and doggedly serialized (even to its detriment, because the quality of the serialization isn't even as good as DS9, which was actually still half episodic yet did serial storytelling miles better than DSC). And it very much does tend to throw out totally bs nonsensical 'twists' that clearly exist for no other reason than because a serial story is 'supposed' to have a lot of twists, and which are very poorly fit into the story. As well as an absolutely terrible knack for idiotic presentation of stakes (like the episode where they have a literal drawn-out, heartfelt debate while continually reminding the audience that the ship is about to explode if they don't shut up and move their asses already.) It is at best DS9 with perhaps more ambition but significantly less writing talent.
It's also not the worst thing in the franchise by any means. There have been individual episodes that were great, even though many of them were at least somewhat undermined by later developments. And it has a largely incredible cast of characters (and actors), who I'd really like to see get better material to work with.
At this point, DSC is continuing the proud Trek spinoff tradition of getting a really bad start, and it's actually honestly still a better start than TNG, VOY or ENT got, so who knows where it might eventually go? But they really have to clean up the writing soon, or DSC will be the spinoff that just got stuck in the terrible first season mode rather than growing out of it.
Pretty much this. I have said this all along that Control had gone evil before episode 7 had happened. The dead Section 31 leadership had been dead for weeks prior to this all killed by Control. Control faked the video footage of Spock and had likely gone bonkers way before the squid probe happened.
We didn't see more of the Klingon War in DS9 than in DSC.
On DS9: Excluding the battle in "The Way of the Warrior" (where the Peace Treaty ends but war is never formally declared), the war starts at the end of "Broken Link" and the beginning of "Apocalypse Now". Gowron says he'll try to push a cease fire through the High Council but there's still hostilities even up to "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Then we see nothing until "By Inferno's Light", half a season later, where Gowron enters back into the Khitomer Accords, end of war, and they're allies again.
On DSC: The war begins in "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars". Discovery makes its grand entrance into The War with style in "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lambs Cry" and saves the, putting them on the map. Lorca is captured by the Klingons in "Choose Your Pain" and escapes with AshVoq. By "Lethe" it's noted that Discovery has made a difference in the war with its Spore Drive but the Spore Drive is problematic, so Cornwell insists that the rest of the Fleet pick up more of the slack and that Discovery should be used more sparingly. Next time Discovery battles the Klingons is in "Into the Forest I Go", which was a decisive battle and would've been a turning point.
Then Discovery disappears for nine months, from the Prime Universe's perspective and everything turns to shit. Until Burnham, Georgiou, and L'Rell bring an end to The War. Abrupt yes, but no more so than the end of the Dominion War on DS9.
So we see Discovery's first battle with the Klingons, Discovery's final battle with the Klingons before its disappearance into the Mirror Universe, and one last mission ending the mission after its return. Throw in the beginning of the War with the Shenzhou... and we see more of the Klingon War in DSC than we did the Klingon War in DS9. And we saw all the points that we needed to see. People complaining that there was too much "pew pew" in DSC seem to me to be arguing for more "pew pew" if they wanted to see more battles.
I agree that Lorca's character could've been handled better.
What are we defining as "feels like the TNG Era"?
DSC isn't shot like TNG/DS9/VOY ("TNG" for short for the rest of the paragraph). It's not directed the same as TNG. It's not paced the same as TNG. The characters don't act like we see in TNG.
You're discounting the opening of the DS9 conflict on a technicality and including DSC non-war stuff by virtue of it being mentioned that Discovery has made a difference.
And it's not just a question of screentime, either, but also scope. For a season supposedly about the war, DSC gives us absolutely nothing of what the war is like. We see the opening fight, a completely context free (and like two minute long) glimpse of a siege of one planet, a sneaky side mission which actually has nothing to do with the main war but is just Discovery trying to find a way around the cloaking tech, and the end of the war which is accomplished by sneaking onto Qonos to plant a bomb. There's literally only one battle there that lasts more than a single scene, and that's supposed to give us a good idea of what this war means? We didn't see half of what we needed to see for this story to be done justice.
Also, this conversation has nothing to do with 'pew pew' (neither more nor less) and I'd appreciate you not assuming I must be one of 'those' people you've apparently dealt with before (for whatever value of 'those' may apply).
It isn't shot, directed, paced or acted like TOS, either. It's a modern style show.
It loves technobabble. More inclined to weird science the shit out of things than action heroing. Practically worships human potential/natural wonder/scientific curiousity. Very fond of putting the moral of the story right in your face tied in a bow. Not particularly fond of the crazy space monster concept, nor particularly interested in endless guest romances. Very heavily humanist leanings with little room for moral compromise, rather than the more pragmatic military mindedness of the original series (which often comes across as 'we do the best we can do', not 'we should do better') - it's not as rigidly obsessed as TNG itself, but actually rather moreso than DS9/VOY.
The only way I see it being more TOS like than TNG era like is in the personal relationships which are indeed more personal and less determinedly professional.
It's 2:47 AM, my time. So I'm only going to reply to one part, then the rest later. I'm getting tired.
I didn't say that it was shot, acted, directed, or paced like TOS. I never said that. I just don't think it's shot, acted, directed, or paced like TNG either. It's something third.
I didn't say that it was shot, acted, directed, or paced like TOS. I never said that. I just don't think it's shot, acted, directed, or paced like TNG either. It's something third.
That I can agree with. I just think that third thing is closer to TNG era (closest to DS9, really) than it is to TOS era, so I find the 'and it's TOS era' praise that comes up sometimes very strange, because what does that matter when it doesn't feel that way?
I don't think the Klingon war on DS9 was shown in that greater detail than the one on Discovery. For episodes focusing on the war, we had the opening battle, a sneaky undercover operation to end it diplomatically, and a cease fire violation after that. Other than this, the war was never really a focus of the plot and was mostly used as a backdrop: Rules of Engagement had a false flag operation intended to discredit a Klingon Starfleet officer as a setup for a courtroom drama episode, Sons of Mogh was an exploration of Worf's family against a backdrop of the Klingons trying to mine Bajoran space, and other than that, we only saw the official declaration of war in Broken Link and the signing of a peace treaty in By Inferno's Light. I'd even say DS9 was worse than Discovery in this regard, as it quite openly showed life going on more or less the same as usual despite the war supposedly raging on.
But these points aside, Discovery had its own mission related to the Spore Drive. It was primarily a research vessel, not a front-line warship. The first season wasn't about the big battles of the Klingon war, it was about the role of Burnham and the Discovery in it.
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