Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

And would probably have survived that. Which means he would have gotten a different test in the first place. Or the test would have been reconfigured in such a way that his presence on the bridge as a commander was absolutely required and going in himself simply wasn't an acceptable option. After all, the point of the test was not to fix the problem, and not even to see if someone would sacrifice their own life, but to see if they could order someone else to their death.

I was basically being humorous. And I think that yes, Data was already a bridge officer. Starfleet has rules of conduct, and Data understood them. But, his actions in "Redemption" showed that he also had that all important quality for leaders: knowing when to bend the rules for the greater good. And yes, knowing when to productively risk lives.

Also, Data might have some problems interpreting 'my first duty is to the ship' correctly:

Data: And, commander, did I pass the test?
Riker: No, because your 'solution' didn't just kill off the entire crew, but every civilian and child, too. In fact, there's no trace of organic life left!
Data: Yes, but the vessel is intact, which is my first duty.

If Data was specifically told during the test that his highest priority was to save the ship, I could see that happening. He can take things rather literally.

But as long as he understood the true conditions of the test, I think he would have passed it. Assuming there was no alternate solution that an android could carry out. Such as making the repairs himself.

In the end, Starfleet seems to have an overall pattern as to promotion. Everyone on DS9 ranked up sensibly, even Bashir (it wasn't mentioned, but they changed his collar insignia). Most of those who didn't rank up (Picard and Riker) were given the chance, but turned down the more prestigious assignments to stay where they were. Even non-Starfleet Kira got a rank boost. So that just makes the Data's and the Harry Kim's make less sense.

 

[at Quark's]

^ i agree to that, I was just joking as well. S1 Data might still misunderstand. By season S7, Data might take the expression literally at first but then quickly understand it really meant saving the people (or: crew) of the ship at large.

Most of those who didn't rank up (Picard and Riker) were given the chance, but turned down the more prestigious assignments to stay where they were.

Even so, there must be many that never advance beyond a specific rank (and are never offered such a promotion either). There are probably way less Admirals than Captains in Starfleet; where do all those other captains that don't make the rank of Admiral go? Do they stay captain or leave Starfleet?

We also see Picard in Tapestry never having advanced beyond Lt. Jg. While this might have been a Q illusion, it's apparently credible enough for Picard to accept this as just an alternate timeline, not a different universe. Nowhere does he say 'this is not the Starfleet I know and love!'; he seems to accept the Q explanation that he never took the risks required to advance his career, but was satisfied with being 'competent'. Which probably would mean that there are such individuals in the 'prime' timeline - quite possibly a great many of them.

 

[DonIago]

Of course, even "Tapestry" Picard had advanced beyond ensign.

 

[Oddish]

Even so, there must be many that never advance beyond a specific rank (and are never offered such a promotion either).

We also see Picard in Tapestry never having advanced beyond Lt. Jg. While this might have been a Q illusion, it's apparently credible enough for Picard to accept this as just an alternate timeline, not a different universe. Nowhere does he say 'this is not the Starfleet I know and love!'; he seems to accept the Q explanation that he never took the risks required to advance his career, but was satisfied with being 'competent'. Which probably would mean that there are such individuals in the 'prime' timeline - quite possibly a great many of them.

Well, in the wet navy, as I understand, it's as follows.
- If you make ensign, and survive and don't totally screw the pooch, promotion to LTJG in 2y is automatic.
- About 95-98% of JG's make lieutenant in another 2y. Maybe not totally automatic, but you have to be BAD to be stuck at JG.
- 80% of officers will make lieutenant commander after about 9y in the service.
- 70% of LCDR's will make commander after about 15y in service.
- 50% of commanders make captain.
- About 8% of captains (or about 2.2% of officers) make flag rank.

As an example to the first, Chakotay was 20y in and still a LCDR, probably a respectable career and not going to rank up much higher. However, he resigned to join the Maquis. When Janeway added him to Voyager's crew, she reactivated him at this rank, and his service on Voyager allowed him to go higher.

However, given that both Janeway and Chakotay considered Harry one of Voyager's finest people, the "doesn't get noticed so no promotion" rationale from "Tapestry" doesn't apply to him.

 

[Lynx]

Because the biggest problem for Voyager was the production staff. They bear the responsibility.

That might be true.

but it still don't answer the question why they were so incapable to write for all their main characters when the DS9 staff could come up with great stories, not only for the main characters but for recurring characters as Garak, Nog, Dukat, Winn, Rom etc.

And would probably have survived that. Which means he would have gotten a different test in the first place. Or the test would have been reconfigured in such a way that his presence on the bridge as a commander was absolutely required and going in himself simply wasn't an acceptable option. After all, the point of the test was not to fix the problem, and not even to see if someone would sacrifice their own life, but to see if they could get their priorities straight, even if that meant ordering someone else to their death.

Also, Data might have some problems interpreting 'my first duty is to the ship' correctly:

Data: And, commander, did I pass the test?
Riker: No, because your 'solution' didn't just kill off the entire crew, but every civilian and child, too. In fact, there's no trace of organic life left!
Data: Yes, but the vessel is intact, which is my first duty.

I could actually see that happen with Data in charge.
But hopefully he had some "save the living people first" addition to his program.

Ridiculously VARIABLE promotion standards. Will Riker did seven years of exemplary work, and got four promotions. Harry Kim did seven years of exemplary work and got zilch. No other ensign in the first four shows got similarly shafted, and only one other officer period.

Especially when the guy next to you just did. After he got thrown in the pokey for attempted terrorism, while all you did was get space syphilis.

And undoubtedly, that fact was pointed out by the viewers post-sixth season, after Harry didn't find a box on his chair. So why didn't the showrunners just spend 20 seconds of one episode having Janeway slap a pip on his collar and be done with it?

In The Gray Universe, that can be explained the way it has been from time to time, that the writers and producers disliked Garret Wang and took out their revenge by neglecting him and his character.

But in the Star Trek Universe it's a little more complicated. The only reason for him not being promoted which I can come up with is that the Captain, the other officers and crewmembers didn't like his musical taste!



Which poor Harry realized later:


Harry, you must understand that this is the reason why I was promoted last week but you wasn't!

So he decided to develop his musical taste and got a promotion in a Star Trek Voyager book!

 

[at Quark's]

Of course, even "Tapestry" Picard had advanced beyond ensign.

True, but he also had been in Starfleet service for a good deal longer than the 7 years we see of Ensign Kim, around 40 years most probably. So perhaps he only got that promotion after 10 years or so (even though I agree it's more probable he would have got that promotion in 3 years or so, never to receive another one).

 

[fireproof78]

but it still don't answer the question why they were so incapable to write for all their main characters when the DS9 staff could come up with great stories, not only for the main characters but for recurring characters as Garak, Nog, Dukat, Winn, Rom etc.

Because they had a mandate and far more oversight due to being a flagship show on UPN. More rules, more syndication friendly. DS9 benefited from being practically ignored.

 

[Oddish]

In The Gray Universe, that can be explained the way it has been from time to time, that the writers and producers disliked Garret Wang and took out their revenge by neglecting him and his character.

My theory as well, and that's why I regard this as the worst of the VOY crew's actions. Ineptitude is easier to forgive than active malevolence.

But in the Star Trek Universe it's a little more complicated. The only reason for him not being promoted which I can come up with is that the Captain, the other officers and crewmembers didn't like his musical taste!

Don't forget "Counterpoint", though... clearly, at least Janeway had an appreciation for classical music.

My own theory is that Janeway is part Klingon, and will only promote people if they take a swing at their superiors. Like Tom and B'Elanna did.

If Harry had taken a poke at Tuvok, the Vulcan would of course have quickly pinched him into unconsciousness. But, when he woke up in sickbay, there would have been a hollow pip waiting on the table next to him.

True, but he also had been in Starfleet service for a good deal longer than the 7 years we see of Ensign Kim, around 40 years most probably. So perhaps he only got that promotion after 10 years or so (even though I agree it's more probable he would have got that promotion in 3 years or so, never to receive another one).

I still say that's just bizarre. Picard was still the highly intelligent and determined young man who won the academy marathon as a freshman. He might not have rocketed to captain at breakneck speed, but he should have had a respectable career. Ending up as an LCDR in an administrative post would be more realistic.

And I reiterate, why would Picard be on the flagship, where the best and brightest serve? A man who was still a LTJG after 35 years would not be regarded as such. To say nothing of why Riker would not have his own command, or why Geordi (who Picard chose) would be there.

Because they had a mandate and far more oversight due to being a flagship show on UPN. More rules, more syndication friendly. DS9 benefited from being practically ignored

What a pathetic irony.

I think that the distillation of the difference lies in Nog. When the DS9 crew wanted to take Nog in a new direction, there was no one there to stop them. When the VOY crew tried to turn a corner with Harry, they were stopped cold.

 

[Lynx]

My theory as well, and that's why I regard this as the worst of the VOY crew's actions. Ineptitude is easier to forgive than active malevolence.

I see your point but I have to add that the destruction of Kes was ten time worse. harry may have been mistreaded and neglected in an almost ridiculous way but they didn't totally destroy the character.

Don't forget "Counterpoint", though... clearly, at least Janeway had an appreciation for classical music.

My own theory is that Janeway is part Klingon, and will only promote people if they take a swing at their superiors. Like Tom and B'Elanna did.

If Harry had taken a poke at Tuvok, the Vulcan would of course have quickly pinched him into unconsciousness. But, when he woke up in sickbay, there would have been a hollow pip waiting on the table next to him.

I think that the reason why Kim wasn't promoted wasn't because of his liking of classic music which many of his crewmates including Janeway herself also had but due to the fact that he wasn't that fond of Iron Maiden who everybody else on the ship are fans of.

As for the theory about taking a swing at their superiors, maybe that was the reason why Harry annoyed Tuvok as much as he did in Resolutions when he almost was court-martialed for his actions. But I guess that a realfight with Tuvok may have had better results.

What a pathetic irony.

I think that the distillation of the difference lies in Nog. When the DS9 crew wanted to take Nog in a new direction, there was no one there to stop them. When the VOY crew tried to turn a corner with Harry, they were stopped cold.

Nog is the direct opposite to Harry when it comes to debating character development.

A good non-Star Trek example is Tim McGee in NCIS who was something of a nerd in the early seasons, constantly ridiculed by his colleague Tony DiNozzo but who turned into a responsible, very good field agent as the series continued, highly respected by the others in the team, even DiNozzo.

Those in charge of Voyager, including the UPN hotshots must have had a weird dislike of character development.

 

[Oddish]

I see your point but I have to add that the destruction of Kes was ten time worse. harry may have been mistreaded and neglected in an almost ridiculous way but they didn't totally destroy the character.

Not saying Kes wasn't shafted, she was and severely. But people aren't making fun of her 30 years later, with no end in sight. Even though realistically speaking, Harry was probably a lieutenant within days of Voyager's return home, you can't surf around these forums without tripping on the "Harry the Forever Ensign" trope.

I think that the reason why Kim wasn't promoted wasn't because of his liking of classic music which many of his crewmates including Janeway herself also had but due to the fact that he wasn't that fond of Iron Maiden who everybody else on the ship are fans of.

That always makes me think of that scene from "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure".

As for the theory about taking a swing at their superiors, maybe that was the reason why Harry annoyed Tuvok as much as he did in Resolutions when he almost was court-martialed for his actions. But I guess that a realfight with Tuvok may have had better results.

And it would have had to happen under Janeway's command. Try to sock Tuvok while he's acting captain, and all you get is the pinch and a week in the brig.

Nog is the direct opposite to Harry when it comes to debating character development.

I'm sure you've seen my comparison of "If Harry was on DS9 vs. if Nog was on VOY". It's a sad, sad, sad story.

A good non-Star Trek example is Tim McGee in NCIS who was something of a nerd in the early seasons, constantly ridiculed by his colleague Tony DiNozzo but who turned into a responsible, very good field agent as the series continued, highly respected by the others in the team, even DiNozzo.

Yeah... him and Ducky's assistant (I forget his name offhand) both followed paths of evolution.

Those in charge of Voyager, including the UPN hotshots must have had a weird dislike of character development.

That or a vendetta against certain characters. Seven and the EMH got some decent development. But what VOY only managed with two characters, DS9 did with all of their mains, and many of their recurring characters as well.

 

[Lynx]

Not saying Kes wasn't shafted, she was and severely. But people aren't making fun of her 30 years later, with no end in sight. Even though realistically speaking, Harry was probably a lieutenant within days of Voyager's return home, you can't surf around these forums without tripping on the "Harry the Forever Ensign" trope.

You are right here
but at least there is a chance that Harry will be a better character in future Star Trek books.

That always makes me think of that scene from "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure".

Unfortunately I haven't seen that movie, it never reached the distand shore where I live. But I will try to watch it, it might inspire me to further "Rock music in Star Trek" ideas.

And it would have had to happen under Janeway's command. Try to sock Tuvok while he's acting captain, and all you get is the pinch and a week in the brig.

That's true and the reason why Harry didn't get promoted after the events in Resolutions.

I'm sure you've seen my comparison of "If Harry was on DS9 vs. if Nog was on VOY". It's a sad, sad, sad story.

Yes, indeed.

Yeah... him and Ducky's assistant (I forget his name offhand) both followed paths of evolution.

Yes, Jimmy Palmer!
He had almost the same development as McGee. From a rather comical sidekick to Ducky to a responsible and skilled doctor.

or a vendetta against certain characters. Seven and the EMH got some decent development. But what VOY only managed with two characters, DS9 did with all of their mains, and many of their recurring characters as well.

That's the sad truth.

 

[at Quark's]

Not saying Kes wasn't shafted, she was and severely. But people aren't making fun of her 30 years later, with no end in sight. Even though realistically speaking, Harry was probably a lieutenant within days of Voyager's return home, you can't surf around these forums without tripping on the "Harry the Forever Ensign" trope.

Even so, in the show Kes received much worse treatment than Harry ever did (imho).

So in my view, the question then becomes: how come it has 'stuck' to Harry much more than to Kes in the fandom?

 

[Farscape One]

It probably sticks out more for Harry because he was there for all 7 years. Kes was only there for 3 seasons and the first 2 episodes of season 4, along with her final appearance in season 6.

The frequency of reminders of the single pip by just episode count alone is probably a factor.

 

[Oddish]

That's true and the reason why Harry didn't get promoted after the events in Resolutions.

Only problem is that Tuvok was promoted. So Janeway shafted the person who advocated disobeying her orders, but rewarded the person who actually disobeyed them.

Unfortunately I haven't seen that movie, it never reached the distand shore where I live. But I will try to watch it, it might inspire me to further "Rock music in Star Trek" ideas.

I actually wonder if they can air it, at least unedited. After all, it has the protagonists use the F word. Not the one that rhymes with "duck", mind you, that's practically conversation these days. They use the shortened version of the OTHER F word!

Even so, in the show Kes received much worse treatment than Harry ever did (imho).

I will agree. Dumping Jennifer Lien the way they did was pretty lousy. And her character had potential, too.

So in my view, the question then becomes: how come it has 'stuck' to Harry much more than to Kes in the fandom?

I don't know, but I think it was intentional. Why else would they cling to it so fiercely?

The frequency of reminders of the single pip by just episode count alone is probably a factor.

That's why it's mentioned by several "worst things Janeway did" lists (none of which were compiled or influenced by me, before you ask), despite the fact that it wasn't as spectacularly appalling as the bulk of her other listed acts. At worst, one man's Starfleet career was harmed, and that might not even have happened. What is most likely to me is what Una McCormack postulated in "The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway": Harry ascended rapidly through the ranks, securing his own command by 2395. BUT, it's not canon, which is why the "eternal ensign" trope goes on. And can be expected to continue either until PRO brings him back officially. Or, if PRO ends after two seasons, another series does. Probably LD, since it's the only other active series set in that timeframe.

 

[Oddish]

This is a bit of a digression, but it concerns Harry, so it's probably Ok...

I just read a review of "Non Sequitur", and according to the reviewer, the worst thing about it was that we all pretty much knew that OF COURSE, Harry was going to be back in the Delta Quadrant by show's end. So... imagine if he hadn't? If they just decided to throw not just a curveball but a full blown eephus by doing a nonlethal Tasha Yar on Harry. He finds out that with endless quadrillions of potential realities out there, the odds against getting back to his own are essentially nil, and any further reality hops would just damage more timelines. So the episode closes with him telling Starfleet that Voyager may still be out there in their timeline as well...

 

[DonIago]

I guess my biggest question there is who would have succeeded him on Voyager.

I was never attached enough to Kim to care one way or the other whether he continued on the ship, certainly not that early in the series, but there wasn't really a Worf waiting in the wings to succeed him either. Jump forward a few years and Seven would be the natural candidate, of course.

 

[Oddish]

I guess my biggest question there is who would have succeeded him on Voyager.

No one had to. Consider:
TOS: Had 3 main characters, and 3 significant ones. Chekhov later made 4.
TOS movies: Had 7 main characters.
TNG: Started with 9 main characters. Dropped to 8 with Tasha's death, then 7 with Wes departing. Stayed at 7 for thr movies and PIC S3.
DS9: Started at 8, maybe 7 given that Jake was not in every episode. Went up to 9 in S4, along with 15 or so secondary characters.
VOY: Remained at 9 throughout.
ENT: Remained at 7 throughout. Maybe 6, Travis was kind of a background character.
PIC: Had 7 at the end of S1. And, used the TNG 7 in S3.
LD: 8 main characters, increased to 9 with T'lyn.
PRO: 7 main characters. Maybe 6, depends on how you classify Murf.
SNW: 8 main characters, with a few recurring (the Kirk bros., plus the two engineers they've had so far).

Voyager could have disposed of up to 3 characters and still had 7 once Seven arrived.

 

[Farscape One]

Danny Byrd is mentioned to be on Voyager instead of Kim in that "NON SEQUITUR" timeline.

 

[Oddish]

Danny Byrd is mentioned to be on Voyager instead of Kim in that "NON SEQUITUR" timeline.

True. But my theory is that when the aliens displaced him, they didn't change the timeline, they just moved Harry into a different one. Call our timeline "A" and the NS timeline "B".
- Harry A is chief of operations on Voyager. Harry B is at the SCE, helping to design a new runabout.
- Harry A is pulled out of his own timeline by a space-time-probability accident.
- The aliens slot Harry A into the most convenient timeline. To make room for him, Harry B is erased. Only Harry A remains.
- If Harry A goes home, the B timeline goes on without Harry. He and Tom B are both considered fried in the explosion. Though they wonder why there's only one person worth of crisped organic residue in the debris...
- If Harry A stays in the B timeline, timeline A goes on without him. Voyager simply has to soldier on without its chief of operations.

 

[DonIago]

No one had to. Consider:
TOS: Had 3 main characters, and 3 significant ones. Chekhov later made 4.
TOS movies: Had 7 main characters.
TNG: Started with 9 main characters. Dropped to 8 with Tasha's death, then 7 with Wes departing. Stayed at 7 for thr movies and PIC S3.
DS9: Started at 8, maybe 7 given that Jake was not in every episode. Went up to 9 in S4, along with 15 or so secondary characters.
VOY: Remained at 9 throughout.
ENT: Remained at 7 throughout. Maybe 6, Travis was kind of a background character.
PIC: Had 7 at the end of S1. And, used the TNG 7 in S3.
LD: 8 main characters, increased to 9 with T'lyn.
PRO: 7 main characters. Maybe 6, depends on how you classify Murf.
SNW: 8 main characters, with a few recurring (the Kirk bros., plus the two engineers they've had so far).

Voyager could have disposed of up to 3 characters and still had 7 once Seven arrived.

That might be fine as a real-world solution, but in-universe it would look pretty odd to have the Ops station unmanned, and I don't think it would have been much better to have a revolving door there.