Garrett Wang

[fireproof78]

Staying at the lowest rank though?

 

[Oddish]

But, even so, his duties are of a higher grade officer. He is not a substitutionary officer, he's acting as a department head. So, he's given all this responsibility with none of the recognition, and is kept at a lower rank for no good reason.

Exactly. Harry's not really an ensign at all. We see in "Lower Decks" (the TNG episode and the show) how ensigns live. Harry's more like a lieutenant wearing ensign pips.

Well, it's the special future were people don't work towards money or fame or power, but to better themselves and the rest of humanity. So, seeking after promotion would obviously not be bettering yourself...I trust you see the difference.

But we still recognize those who do a good job serving humanity (and non-humanity as well). Which Harry has done.

Staying at the lowest rank though?

Especially after seeing a guy who messed up worse than you getting promoted past you.

Maybe Harry shouldn't have mentioned it right then, but once Tom got promoted back, Harry should have gone to Janeway or maybe Chakotay and asked them what he was doing wrong.

 

[DonIago]

I can see it now...
Kim: But seriously, why haven't I been promoted while Tom's not only been demoted but re-promoted to a rank above my own?
Janeway: Well...you see...Chakotay and I were discussing promoting you, but then you made that crack about not seeing a box on your chair. That was conduct unbecoming a lieutenant. Not on my bridge, Mister Kim.
Kim: ...(throws badge onto Janeway's desk) Take this job and shove it...ma'am.

 

[fireproof78]

But we still recognize those who do a good job serving humanity (and non-humanity as well). Which Harry has done.

Needed some irony punctuation to highlight the high degree of sarcasm. Yes, he should be recognized, which is why I find any in universe excuses as just that-excuses.

 

[Lynx]

Positive perhaps because the writers didn't know what to do with him.
He ended up suffering from a similar problem Chakotay had... so it was maybe a good thing that Kim didn't get much character development as they could have messed him up even more?

Other than that, I don't think that Kim had that many 'distinguishing' moments on VOY to warrant a promotion.
We saw from 'Tapestry' in TNG that a person can do their duties with high proficiency and accuracy but still not get promoted for decades (As Picard seemingly was stuck for 'decades' as a Lt. because he took a 'safer route').

Kim may have gotten more active roles 2 episodes in a season... rest of the time it was just 'lull' for duties (aka, standard stuff mostly).
Perhaps he just didn't rack up that many distinguishing moments during his time on VOY to be promoted in the first 7 years (or at least Janeway and Chakotay didn't seem to think so) because (like alternate Picard) he was just doing his duty most of the time, but unlike alternate 'non risk taking' Picard, Kim did have distinguishing moments, so he may have just taken longer to advance in ranks (it wouldn't be uncommon - people on the fast track to captaincy are not very widespread - its possible the usual progression in ranks just takes longer).

In the Endgame timeline, VOY got back to the AQ in 2394. So, he likely already reached a rank of Commander on VOY by the time the ship got back in 2394, and then took mere 6 years (or 5.5 years) to get to Captain (unless he was promoted immediately because the ship and crew were both legendary as well so everyone had options to choose from).

So initial slower progression on-screen due to lack of character development and distinguishing moments to possibly warrant a promotion in the first 7 years. If he was promoted sometime in 7th year to Lt. Junior Grade, then he'd have 15.5 years to get to Commander (on 1 ship that was mainly heading back to the AQ... its not surprising it would take him that long).

Kim was fairly young in Caretaker. In Endgame, the ship took 23 years to get back to Federation space. Sources say that Kim was 22 when he was assigned to VOY.
So, when the ship got back in 2394, Kim would have been 45 and already attained a rank of Commander by then, and shortly after that, a rank of Captain.

Janeway was described as being in her early 40-ies when she became a captain of VOY.

So, yeah, it just seems that Kim was a bit slower on the progression curve compared to Janeway and being stuck in the DQ probably didn't help.
But hey, he became 'legendary' due to just being on the ship doing all he did (and he had to advance in the alternate timeline anyway)... so, when the ship got back earlier, you'd think he would advance quicker (but then things may have changed for Kim in the proceeding years and we don't know what he's been doing - Seven Joined the Fenris rangers and effectively gave up on joining SF at the time).

But take Chakotay for example. He was apparently 42 by the time he joined VOY crew (but he already held this rank before that)... so, Janeway simply reinstated his rank and then he got to Captain in Prodigy (which takes place in 2383).
Given that Chakotay would have been 49 by the time the ship reached the AQ with alteration of events in Endgame, he was then promoted to Captain sometime before 2383 (Prodigy implies he was promoted shortly before he got assigned to the Protostar - which would be 2381 or 2382 - we don't know how long the Protostar was in space exploring before it got hit by the Temporal anomaly).

And from Prodigy, Chakotay was still getting used to Janeway being promoted from Captain to Vice Admiral even though she's been an admiral since at least 2379 (ST: Nemesis).

Oh well, Kim seems to be on the same track route as Chakotay (who took a detour by becoming Maqui first for a couple of years), and then 7 years in the DQ back as a Commander.
Kim was side-tracked by being in the DQ, so less distinguishing moments for him on a ship that was travelling back home... which would have impacted his advancement somewhat while he was onboard.

In PIC S3, they intended to have him be a rank of Commander... which is even slower than alternate timeline in Endgame... but since he never made an appearance there, that hadn't been canonized, so hopefully, he will advance quicker (if that was still his desire - or he may have found a different occupation which kept him in the same position for longer and didn't see a need to advance quickly).

Which gives me the impression that the writers were the problem, not the characters.

They couldn't write for Kes, they couldn't write for Chakotay, they couldn't write for Kim!

Was there any character they could have written for, except Seven and maybe The Doctor?

And wouldn't the problem have been solved if they had fired the writers and replaced them with people who could write for all main characters?

Just look at the Voyager books from the first three seasons where all those characters they couldn't write for actually are doing something.

Harry Kim is much better in the books than he was in the series. In the books, he solves a lot of technical problems, computer problems and is involved with a lot of action too.

 

[Farscape One]

An observation I made when VOYAGER was airing...

In the theme for seasons 1-3, everyone who has a rank is shown the rank in their name. (They even went as far as B'Elanna not having her rank shown in the credits until "TIME AND AGAIN", which is the episode after she was made Chief Engineer, and Chakotay and Paris didn't have their ranks shown until "PARALLAX".)

For seasons 4-7, except for Janeway, no one ever has their rank shown in the credits again. Obviously, the reason they made changes was because they had to remove Jennifer Lien's name and character and add Jeri Ryan.

But they made efforts in the beginning to show proper rank in the theme, so why didn't they just keep to that bit of attention to detail?

(I know that for half of the first season, the rank pips were all wrong for everyone except Janeway and Kim. Which was already a strange thing to miss for that long. The pilot of a series? That can happen. An episode or two into the new show? Sure, I can see that. But for half of the season? That always struck me as odd.)

 

[Oddish]

I can see it now...
Kim: But seriously, why haven't I been promoted while Tom's not only been demoted but re-promoted to a rank above my own?
Janeway: Well...you see...Chakotay and I were discussing promoting you, but then you made that crack about not seeing a box on your chair. That was conduct unbecoming a lieutenant. Not on my bridge, Mister Kim.
Kim: ...(throws badge onto Janeway's desk) Take this job and shove it...ma'am.

Wouldn't blame him. But that's if he did it right after doing it wrong. What if he didn't point it out then, but later. Something like...

Chakotay's Quarters. Chakotay is reading from a padded. There's a chime.
CHAKOTAY: "Come in."
Enter Harry.
HARRY: "Am I disturbing you, sir?"
CHAKOTAY: "Not at all, Ensign. What's on your mind?"
HARRY: "It's the captain. I'm just wondering..."
CHAKOTAY (nods understanding): "Why she promoted Paris back to lieutenant and you're still an ensign."

The problem is, there's no answer Chakotay could give. How do you defend a decision that's inherently indefensible? There's a reason why Harry's comment on the bridge was interrupted by that distress signal.

Harry Kim is much better in the books than he was in the series. In the books, he solves a lot of technical problems, computer problems and is involved with a lot of action too.

That's because any competent writer could do any number of things with his character. A brand new ensign, still at the start of his journey... the writers could have done anything with him.

Which gives me the impression that the writers were the problem, not the characters.

They couldn't write for Kes, they couldn't write for Chakotay, they couldn't write for Kim!

I know. Is it wrong that I think the "Before and After" timeline was better than the one we got?

(I know that for half of the first season, the rank pips were all wrong for everyone except Janeway and Kim. Which was already a strange thing to miss for that long. The pilot of a series? That can happen. An episode or two into the new show? Sure, I can see that. But for half of the season? That always struck me as odd.)

It struck me as sloppy. Most of Voyager's issues were a result of that. But I read a deeper (and nastier) issue in Harry's non-promotion, since they could have settled that easily enough but made an active choice not only to not do it, but to spend more effort in explaining why they weren't doing it than it would have taken to do it!

But they made efforts in the beginning to show proper rank in the theme, so why didn't they just keep to that bit of attention to detail?

Possibly because they were planning to have some mid-season rank changes, as happened with Tuvok and Tom. It would have been that easy to do one more!

 

[Farscape One]

That might explain Tuvok, who was promoted on the 5th episode of season four, "REVULSION".

But not Tom. That was in "THIRTY DAYS", 8 episodes into season five.

 

[fireproof78]

Which gives me the impression that the writers were the problem, not the characters.

Because the biggest problem for Voyager was the production staff. They bear the responsibility.

 

[Oddish]

That might explain Tuvok, who was promoted on the 5th episode of season four, "REVULSION".

But not Tom. That was in "THIRTY DAYS", 8 episodes into season five.

They made the changes for Season 4, and just didn't go back. There were no other lineup changes, after all. And, given that VOY was struggling in its later seasons, they might not have wanted to spend more money than they had to.

Besides, maybe they wanted to leave it open for other characters to be promoted or demoted as well.

And @fireproof78 - I think you're right. Voyager had too many good episodes for us to dismiss all the writers as incompetents... though you did wonder what they were thinking sometimes. Looking at you, "Threshold".

 

[DonIago]

Sometimes I wonder whether they made episodes with the express intention of seeing how the fans would react to the shenanigans they were releasing.

 

[fireproof78]

though you did wonder what they were thinking sometimes. Looking at you, "Threshold".

Sometimes I wonder whether they made episodes with the express intention of seeing how the fans would react to the shenanigans they were releasing.

I think they were thinking "We need to get this script done, so let's do it." Arguably, people who are writing it are not always going to see the problems as we do.

 

[Oddish]

I think they were thinking "We need to get this script done, so let's do it." Arguably, people who are writing it are not always going to see the problems as we do.

Even so.........salamanders?!

 

[fireproof78]

Even so.........salamanders?!

Well, I blame the stupid deevolution episode from TNG.

 

[at Quark's]

It's just that Starfleet probably has ridiculously high promotion standards.

'Hrm, saved the space-time-continuum 3 times.... saved a few planetary populations from extinction level events.... came up with the technical breakthrough that made a defense against the transtemporal phase cannon of species X possible....took the initiative for the heroic deeds at Caliburn X that later proved to have turned the tide in the war ... sorry ensign Whatsyourname, you need some more substantial achievements to warrant a promotion to Lt. Jg.'

 

[fireproof78]

It's just that Starfleet probably has ridiculously high promotion standards.

'Hrm, saved the space-time-continuum 3 times.... saved a few planetary populations from extinction level events.... came up with the technical breakthrough that made a defense against the transtemporal phase cannon of species X possible....took the initiative for the heroic deeds at Caliburn X that later proved to have turned the tide in the war ... sorry ensign Whatsyourname, you need some more substantial achievements to warrant a promotion to Lt. Jg.'

I think that's the part that drives me nuts. The attitude expressed about humans on Earth are supposedly about human growth and potential, yet moving up one step in rank is unreasonable? How does an organization grow like that?

It's not like Harry is asking to move to commander or captain. He's asking for a reasonable promotion pace, demonstrated both in universe and out of universe. It's unreasonable by any definition.

 

[Oddish]

It's just that Starfleet probably has ridiculously high promotion standards.

Ridiculously VARIABLE promotion standards. Will Riker did seven years of exemplary work, and got four promotions. Harry Kim did seven years of exemplary work and got zilch. No other ensign in the first four shows got similarly shafted, and only one other officer period.

I think that's the part that drives me nuts. The attitude expressed about humans on Earth are supposedly about human growth and potential, yet moving up one step in rank is unreasonable?

Especially when the guy next to you just did. After he got thrown in the pokey for attempted terrorism, while all you did was get space syphilis.

It's not like Harry is asking to move to commander or captain. He's asking for a reasonable promotion pace, demonstrated both in universe and out of universe. It's unreasonable by any definition.

And undoubtedly, that fact was pointed out by the viewers post-sixth season, after Harry didn't find a box on his chair. So why didn't the showrunners just spend 20 seconds of one episode having Janeway slap a pip on his collar and be done with it?

 

[at Quark's]

Ridiculously VARIABLE promotion standards. Will Riker did seven years of exemplary work, and got four promotions. Harry Kim did seven years of exemplary work and got zilch. No other ensign in the first four shows got similarly shafted, and only one other officer period.

Perhaps the 'it's not what you know but who you know' that's more important in 24th century Starfleet than we're led to believe. Truth be told, Will Riker does strike me as more socially savvy than Harry Kim. It could also explain why Data never got one beyond the rank we saw him have on TNG.

(Then again, that wouldn't explain Tom Paris' field commission and re-promotion. Or perhaps it would - he's still an Admiral's son, after all).

 

[Oddish]

Truth be told, Will Riker does strike me as more socially savvy than Harry Kim. It could also explain why Data never got one beyond the rank we saw him have on TNG.

You mean despite saving the Federation from Borg assimilation and Romulan machinations in one year. While Deanna got a promotion by killing a hologram of Geordi. Data would have just repaired the conduit himself.

(Then again, that wouldn't explain Tom Paris' field commission and re-promotion. Or perhaps it would - he's still an Admiral's son, after all).

In full cynical mode, yeah. But that's not something Janeway (the captain I grew to admire) would do, any more than the one who denigrated Harry in "Nightingale".

And @fireproof78 , love your avatar.

 

[at Quark's]

Data would have just repaired the conduit himself.

And would probably have survived that. Which means he would have gotten a different test in the first place. Or the test would have been reconfigured in such a way that his presence on the bridge as a commander was absolutely required and going in himself simply wasn't an acceptable option. After all, the point of the test was not to fix the problem, and not even to see if someone would sacrifice their own life, but to see if they could get their priorities straight, even if that meant ordering someone else to their death.

Also, Data might have some problems interpreting 'my first duty is to the ship' correctly:

Data: And, commander, did I pass the test?
Riker: No, because your 'solution' didn't just kill off the entire crew, but every civilian and child, too. In fact, there's no trace of organic life left!
Data: Yes, but the vessel is intact, which is my first duty.