I didn't mean harm him, just cause his intended swindle to majorly backfire.Oh, no! Don't touch Quark! I forbid that!
Garrett Wang
- Thread starter Athena28
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Come on now, give Quark some credit.
What would the station be without him?
Come on now! Quark's is the place at the station!
You wouldn't want to miss all this entertainment!
Yes, yes I would.Come on now! Quark's is the place at the station!
You wouldn't want to miss all this entertainment!
In fact, I would pay some latinum to avoid it.
Some of those acts sound pretty awesome.
Importing from another topic...
I actually don't think there's any timeline where he remains an ensign forever (aside from the one that he died in). It's just that in the canon timeline, there's no mention of him beyond the moment where Voyager sails serenely off toward Earth at VOY's end. Realistically speaking, he probably got bumped up soon after Voyager's return. On LD, Tom was a full lieutenant, which is about right; Janeway had just re-promoted him to JG, so figure Starfleet just kicked him up one more grade. My guess would be that Harry was upped to the same rank, skipping JG entirely. By PRO's point in the timeline (5y post-VOY), he could easily have made LCDR, especially if he gets a CO who doesn't care about the whole "partied with an alien" thing.
It's not that he has no prospects for advancement; canon states that he's one of Janeway's most valued officers, which is why the decision to keep him at ensign is generally held in contempt. It's just that his fate hasn't been mentioned. Like Schrodinger's cat, until we know the outcome, all outcomes are equally true and equally false.
Importing from another topic...
I actually don't think there's any timeline where he remains an ensign forever (aside from the one that he died in). It's just that in the canon timeline, there's no mention of him beyond the moment where Voyager sails serenely off toward Earth at VOY's end. Realistically speaking, he probably got bumped up soon after Voyager's return. On LD, Tom was a full lieutenant, which is about right; Janeway had just re-promoted him to JG, so figure Starfleet just kicked him up one more grade. My guess would be that Harry was upped to the same rank, skipping JG entirely. By PRO's point in the timeline (5y post-VOY), he could easily have made LCDR, especially if he gets a CO who doesn't care about the whole "partied with an alien" thing.
It's not that he has no prospects for advancement; canon states that he's one of Janeway's most valued officers, which is why the decision to keep him at ensign is generally held in contempt. It's just that his fate hasn't been mentioned. Like Schrodinger's cat, until we know the outcome, all outcomes are equally true and equally false.
All timelines seen onscreen are canon timelines.
Correct. But Harry has not been seen on any Trek TV series or movie since the end of Voyager. So his canonical fate beyond "Set a course for home" has not been established. It's been theorized, in several novels, one online video game, and a few hundred thousand fanfictions. But, a character's fate can only be set onscreen.
And even then.... isn't it a practice in some armies to give a soldier a final posthumous promotion, provided he died while doing his duty?
And I agree with the rest, realistically he would have been promoted very shortly after he got home, along with the rest of the VOY crew that didn't get promotions in due time.
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It's one of the most universally reviled decisions on any Trek series... and yet the powers that be are fiercely determined to ensure that nothing is done to rectify it. While I don't think the Harry mannequin on "Lower Decks" is the portent many people say it is (Janeway's mannequin undoubtedly has a captain's uniform), it would have been a golden opportunity to give us an update on him, and even feature the character. They chased down Shannon Fill, who had been out of acting for 27 years, but they couldn't get Garrett Wang, who does Trek podcasts?
As an aside, you can't even type "harry kim prodigy star trek" into a search engine without getting more references to his lack of promotion (and the idiotic "explanations" of why). Unfortunately, there's no conclusive evidence as to if Harry is among the characters set to return in Season 2 (though some non-VOY characters have been teased). However, the show seems to be doing well in it's new home... I think the odds of a Season 3 just jumped from "don't count on it" to "could actually happen".
Reviled? Most people don't care and of those who do most joke about it.
Not getting promoted for 7 seasons is not uncommon, excluding the captains on TNG Riker, Crusher and Data never got promoted (and there's no reason Riker couldn't have been a captain too for example, the CO and XO having the same rank is quite common in real world militaries), on DS9 O'Brien didn't get one, on Voyager no one except Tuvok got a promotion (Paris was demoted and then repromoted so I don't count him because he ended the series with the same rank he had at the beginning).
So Harry not getting a promotion is not that unusual. And what's even the big deal? Harry was a department head, bridge officer, was part of conferences and a valued officer, a higher rank would have changed nothing about that. He's not getting paid, there's no getting kicked out of starfleet because of a lack of promotions, so what does it matter? Torres didn't whine that she was still a Lt. after years in the delta quadrant.
Let's compare, using the shows set in that time period...
TNG
Picard: Offered promotion to Academy Commandant (a RADM billet)
Riker: Offered promotion to captain.
Beverly: Already a commander.
Troi: Promoted from LCDR to CDR.
Data: Never promoted. Imminent promotion to CDR prevented by his death.
Geordi: Promoted from LTJG to LT to LCDR
Worf: Promoted from LTJG to LT to LCDR.
Wes: Promoted from acting Ensign to full ensign.
Ro: Promoted from ENS to LT.
Ogawa: Promoted from ENS to LTJG.
DS9:
Sisko: Promoted from CDR to Captain
Kira: Commissioned as a major, promoted to Colonel. Probably equivalent to Lt. Col, since her Starfleet commission was as a Commander.
O'Brien: Promoted upon transition to DS9. Possibly at highest enlisted rank.
Bashir: Promoted from LTJG to LT.
Dax: Promoted from LT to LCDR.
Worf: Not promoted, but he was newly promoted to LCDR on arrival, and it typically takes 5-6 years to make CDR.
Nog: Promoted from Cadet to ENS to LTJG.
Ezri: Promoted from ENS to LTJG.
VOY:
Janeway: Could not be promoted further.
Chakotay: Commission reactivated as LCDR, provisional rank.
Paris: Commission reactivated as LTJG, demoted to ENS, promoted back to LTJG.
Tuvok: Promoted from LT to LCDR.
Torres: Promoted to chief engineer. Her provisional rank was LTJG.
Kim: Never promoted.
LD (2380-81)
Paris: Promoted from LTJG to LT.
Mariner, Tendi, Boimler, Rutherford, and T'Lyn: Promoted from ENS to LTJG.
PRO (2383):
Janeway: Promoted to Vice Admiral
Chakotay: Promoted to Captain
PIC (Early 2400's)
Picard: Promoted to admiral.
Riker: Left Starfleet as a captain.
Troi: Left Starfleet, rank unknown.
Geordi: Made Commodore.
Worf: Believed to have been Captain.
Data: Deceased. Reactivated version was presumably not a commissioned officer.
Ro: Returned to Starfleet, made Commander.
Tuvok: Made Captain.
Seven: Commissioned as CDR by Picard, promoted to Captain.
Any questions?
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There is of course the slight problem that in the army, promotion through the initial ranks is fairly customary, but becomes slower and more of a rarity beyond a certain level (not everyone can become an admiral, after all, not even in Starfleet). So Crusher not getting a promotion may not necessarily be the same as Harry not getting a promotion in that same timeframe.
Also, I would view the initial 'promotions' of the Maquis as different. They had to be integrated into the Voyager command structure, spots needed to be filled, and I'm not sure if B'elanna being both Chief Engineer and an Ensign (or even a crewman, as she never graduated Starfleet) wouldn't cause problems. She wasn't promoted because the performed capably and loyally in a lower position but simply because they needed her on that spot. However, had she been promoted again (from Lt. Jg. to a full Lt.), I would consider that an ordinary promotion.
Also, I would view the initial 'promotions' of the Maquis as different. They had to be integrated into the Voyager command structure, spots needed to be filled, and I'm not sure if B'elanna being both Chief Engineer and an Ensign (or even a crewman, as she never graduated Starfleet) wouldn't cause problems. She wasn't promoted because the performed capably and loyally in a lower position but simply because they needed her on that spot. However, had she been promoted again (from Lt. Jg. to a full Lt.), I would consider that an ordinary promotion.
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Two slight adjustments...
Torres was a Lt. j.g., provisional. And Ro was promoted to full Lt. when we saw her in "Preemptive Strike".
Torres was a Lt. j.g., provisional. And Ro was promoted to full Lt. when we saw her in "Preemptive Strike".
If Torres being both Chief Engineer and an Ensign would be problematic, I would think Kim being both an Ensign and a Department Head would be equally problematic?
Not all departments are equal, and the Engineering department probably is a lot larger than Operations. B'Elanna has her own people working for her, we never know for sure whether Kim has any people working for him (though it's hard to imagine there not being a 2nd and 3rd shift for Operations, at the very least). Chief Engineer seems to be fairly high up in the general chain of command, too (both Tucker and Scotty seemed to belong to the Top 3 on board, though I'll agree the position seemed to be slightly lower in the general pecking order in later eras) .
Torres was a LTJG.
Done.
Chakotay and Paris both had existing commissions, and were reinstated at the rank they were at time of separation. By contrast, Torres was given a field commission at a higher rank than her Starfleet training/service rated. Harry had already received his commission, from the Academy. It's kind of apples and oranges.
However, this does illustrate another oddity. Chief of Operations on a state of the art starship should have been a lieutenant's berth. So, how did an ensign with no experience get it in the first place?
This illustrates what should have been done with Lieutenant's Durst and Carey. Durst should have been Harry's superior until he was killed, forcing his young ensign assistant to head up the department (and he finds himself out of his element). And Carey should have been made chief engineer, forcing B'Elanna to learn to work as a team member and control her temper... it's ridiculous that she was promoted for assaulting him! (Maybe if Harry had taken a swing at Tuvok, he'd have gotten an extra pip as well).
Harry has multiple underlings. In "Good Shepherd", Seven castigated him for not leaving his night shift crew enough work to do.
That argument effectively renders all in situ promotions meaningless. Sisko becoming a captain, Tuvok and Dax becoming lieutenant commanders, Tom cycling between ensign and lieutenant... their duties didn't change, so it doesn't matter.You're making too much sense . . . as I suspect you're about to find out.
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