Garrett Wang

[Lynx]

Similarly, I still wonder why they wrote Fury. They must have known part of the fans weren't happy with her leaving. Then why bring her back only to do something horrible to her, rather than just leaving her alone? And if it had been a spectacular story (say on the Year of Hell level), I still might have kind of understood, but even the climax of the story was lame.

I have written this before and I know that there are people who disagree with me about this.

But I think it was a deliberate "finger" to fans of Kes who wanted her back.

Ever since Kes was kicked out, there was a lot of discussions about why since the information about it was very confusing, we were actually presented with two explanations for that.

There was also a letter campaign going for having kes re-instated as a main character in the series again. No, I didn't start it but I know who did and I was in contact with that person then.

What I know about from different sources, the campaign was noticed in the "headquarter" where the series was produced.

In that situation, those in charge had two options:

1. They could bring Kes back if the actress were interested in it.

2. They could simply ignore the fans who wanted her back.

They did choose option three which was to bring back the character only to destroy her in the worst possible way and they did that.

Just like: "So you want your little favorite back? Well, eat this you scum! And don't dare to question our decisions again!"

For those who might question my theory, it actually happened again at the end of the series. This time with another somewhat larger group of fans, the J/C-ers.

As you probably know, there were a lot of people who wanted a "happy ending" between Janeway and Chakotay.

I wasn't involved in that at all even if I did sympathize with those who wanted that scenario.

I guess that there were a lot of mails and posts to those in charge of the series for that end scenario.

So what did those in chardge do? Well, the same as in "the Kes case!

A finger to the J/C-ers!

Once again, they had two options:

1. They could make a "happy ending" between Janeway and Chakotay.

2. Or they could simply ignore it and leaving it up to future books or fan fiction.

Once again they did choose option three. In this case they came up with the Chakotay-Seven scenario which they must have known would make the J/C-ers angry and disappointed.

Coincidences? No, I doubt that.

Or to quote "Gibbs rules" from the series NCIS:
Gibbs' Rule #39: There is no such thing as a coincidence.

Fortunately Christie Golden the first writer of the Voyager Relaunch books changed that scenario.
Unfiortunately, no one did a similar thing for Kes.
Except me in my stories!

 

[Tosk]

I'm reminded of the saying "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[fireproof78]

Just because we're passionate doesn't make them care.

 

[at Quark's]

I have written this before and I know that there are people who disagree with me about this.

I agree that it certainly seems that way and that it is tempting to think so.

On the other hand I think it's important to be very careful to not attribute malice to actions unless one is absolutely certain that it is actually the case.

In this particular case, I think it's highly unlikely any real, authoritative answer will be forthcoming, now or in the future.

 

[DonIago]

It'll be interesting to see whether the documentary talks about any of these issues. I'm betting the Kim stuff will come up long before any of the Kes stuff.

 

[Oddish]

Apathy is getting the letter and putting it on a pile to get around to eventually and eventually never comes.

You are actually quite correct. And if Harry's casual line about not noticing a box on his chair had been the end of it, I would have to figure that was what happened. However, it wasn't... the issue was brought up again in "Nightingale" and "Author Author". In other words, they devoted twice as much effort to refusing to promote Harry as it would have taken to just promote him.

I'm reminded of the saying "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

On the other hand I think it's important to be very careful to not attribute malice to actions unless one is absolutely certain

That point I will admit... I can't be certain. I wasn't in the writer's room at Voyager, so I have no clue what forces were in play there. Further, a lot of things happened that show that either stupidity or apathy were both very prevalent. See also: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/do-...te-for-voyager-a-quiz-in-25-questions.315529/

It'll be interesting to see whether the documentary talks about any of these issues. I'm betting the Kim stuff will come up long before any of the Kes stuff.

There was a previous documentary on the show that discussed it... it just held to the "somebody gotta be duh ensign" line. Which holds no water whatsoever, given that half of TNG and all of DS9 had no ensigns in the main cast.

 

[Farscape One]

The whole reason of 'someone has to be the ensign' doesn't hold water if you look at Nog alone.

 

[fireproof78]

You are actually quite correct. And if Harry's casual line about not noticing a box on his chair had been the end of it, I would have to figure that was what happened. However, it wasn't... the issue was brought up again in "Nightingale" and "Author Author". In other words, they devoted twice as much effort to refusing to promote Harry as it would have taken to just promote him.

Which still doesn't indicate mean-spirited. Just that the idea of a promotion was not important.

I think they are more apathetic to changing the status quo, for whatever reason. I am not one to assume malice when lack of care is more likely to be the response. Two different authors on the teleplay, and maybe feeling like if they "hang a hat on it" then it will go away.

It doesn't bear up under scrutiny, as @Farscape One notes, which is a whole other topic. But, the idea that it's mean-spirited is one I question.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The whole reason of 'someone has to be the ensign' doesn't hold water if you look at Nog alone.

The enlisted crew would have been promoted to ensign.

All those assholes in Tuvok's Night School would have deserved to be Ensigns after 2 or 3 years of Hell.

They had Ray Walston on Staff.

Cast him as an academy holoteacher called "Mr Foot".

And all the male cast-members Take their shirts off to complete the joke.

 

[Oddish]

But, the idea that it's mean-spirited is one I question.

Entirely fair, and my evidence is just that: evidence. Not proof.

Regardless, whether it was ineptitude, apathy, or malevolence, Voyager was a worse show for it.

 

[Lynx]

The whole reason of 'someone has to be the ensign' doesn't hold water if you look at Nog alone.

But Nog was in a series run by people with ideas for character development.

 

[Oddish]

Another writer's take on it...

"On Voyager, Harry was arguably one of the ship’s most important officers, helping to ensure its smooth operation. Harry performed this role well, particularly in light of the circumstances. Yet he was never recognized for his achievements on the ship and was continually passed over for promotions. This is even more jarring when everyone else around him was. This in turn impacted fans’ perception of Harry Kim, coming to regard him as something of a joke."

And this is the issue in a nutshell, isn't it? Janeway tells Harry that he's been one of the bright spots in the mission and exceeded all expectations she had... but actions spoke louder than words. And if you doubt the contempt, just type "harry kim meme" into Google. Just about everything you'll get points out that (a) Harry was never promoted, or (b) Harry is pathetic for some other reason.

 

[Lynx]

Another writer's take on it...

"On Voyager, Harry was arguably one of the ship’s most important officers, helping to ensure its smooth operation. Harry performed this role well, particularly in light of the circumstances. Yet he was never recognized for his achievements on the ship and was continually passed over for promotions. This is even more jarring when everyone else around him was. This in turn impacted fans’ perception of Harry Kim, coming to regard him as something of a joke."

And this is the issue in a nutshell, isn't it? Janeway tells Harry that he's been one of the bright spots in the mission and exceeded all expectations she had... but actions spoke louder than words. And if you doubt the contempt, just type "harry kim meme" into Google. Just about everything you'll get points out that (a) Harry was never promoted, or (b) Harry is pathetic for some other reason.

Oh dear.
Actually a bit sad to see all those Harry Kim memes.

Not to mention that I feel a bit guilty since I actually did one myself once:



But in all fairness, I also made one where Harry learned from hir previous mistake and did something which could give him a promotion.

 

[Oddish]

But Nog was in a series run by people with ideas for character development.

You said it. If Nog had been on Voyager, Year 1 would have seen him thrown in the brig for mooching Antarean cider from Chakotay's secret stash in Cargo Bay 2. And, Year 7 would have seen him... thrown in the brig for mooching Antarean cider from Chakotay's secret stash in Cargo Bay 2.

If Harry had been on DS9, by Year 7 he would have advanced to full lieutenant, loved and lost, gotten married, had a kid, dealt with the horrors of war, and totally wrecked Quark when the latter tied to con him again.

 

[at Quark's]

You said it. If Nog had been on Voyager, Year 1 would have seen him thrown in the brig for mooching Antarean cider from Chakotay's secret stash in Cargo Bay 2. And, Year 7 would have seen him... thrown in the brig for mooching Antarean cider from Chakotay's secret stash in Cargo Bay 2.

That's overstating the case. I agree with your season 1 description, but in S7, Nog would have been thrown in the brig because of stealing some Alsuran cider from Chakotay's secret stash in Cargo Bay 2.

You see, VOY did character development, just too subtle for many people to notice.

 

[fireproof78]

But Nog was in a series run by people with ideas for character development.

Nog was also in a series which thrived by being regarded as a "forgotten show."

 

[Farscape One]

Nog was also in a series which thrived by being regarded as a "forgotten show."

I'm forced to agree with this.

I've said in the past that besides the writers and Ira being the lead writer for most of the series (or more to the point, the only change in leadership was from Piller to Behr), that being left basically alone gave DS9 more latitude to do its thing. Ira also fought hard for some things, and part of the reason he would get those wins was because DS9 was not under the scrutiny VOY was.

 

[Lynx]

You said it. If Nog had been on Voyager, Year 1 would have seen him thrown in the brig for mooching Antarean cider from Chakotay's secret stash in Cargo Bay 2. And, Year 7 would have seen him... thrown in the brig for mooching Antarean cider from Chakotay's secret stash in Cargo Bay 2.

If Harry had been on DS9, by Year 7 he would have advanced to full lieutenant, loved and lost, gotten married, had a kid, dealt with the horrors of war, and totally wrecked Quark when the latter tied to con him again.

Oh, no! Don't touch Quark! I forbid that!

 

[fireproof78]

If Harry had been on DS9, by Year 7 he would have advanced to full lieutenant, loved and lost, gotten married, had a kid, dealt with the horrors of war, and totally wrecked Quark when the latter tied to con him again.

I'm sure there is a story in there somewhere. Perhaps a fan fiction.

And then Quark leaves the station and everyone is happier for it.

 

[DonIago]

"What If...Ensign Harry Kim had been assigned to Deep Space Nine?"