Garrett Wang criticizes Rick Berman

[MrPointy]

Seems to me DS9 mostly went away from the TNG formula which is why it suffered in popularity (although not in quality). I guess Wang never watched that show.

Wang was a DS9 fan. At least, that's what the Memory-Alpha article says.

 

[Navaros]

^^^ Well, I'm sure a SINGLE directing class won't prepare you in every way for Directing but if you were in a true Acting program at a college made specifically for that for that sort of thing, I'm sure you'd get more than ONE class. The principles of directing would probably be put inthroughout your whole program and not just a single class. Your college may not have had that focus but it doesn't sound like you had a true Acting/Theater degree anyways - just a English degree with a Theater Minor-like addition.

On the DS9 DVD extras Rene Auberjonois talks about how Jonathan Frakes pointed out to him that directing for Trek is a really good opportunity because you get really good director training, as if you had went to school for it, but you get it for free as a luxury of working on Trek. Not something that other shows would provide. Hence based on those comments I believe Trek actors got a lot more director training than just one class, didn't they? I'm not an expert on this so someone can correct this if it's wrong.

I agree with you that he didn’t take the risks he could have.” That’s all I said and it was in reference to the fact that the man came in, took over from Gene Roddenberry, plugged in a formula and kept that same formula for “Next Generation,” every episode of “Deep Space Nine,” every episode of “Voyager” and after a while, you’re talking about 21 years worth of episodes. Man, you better start changing your formula a little bit just to keep it fresh.

Wang is mostly correct about this. Although what the quote doesn't make clear is that the other showrunners unplugged Berman's formula from DS9 after Season 1 and as such it produced episodes unlike anything else Trek has done. But Berman's formula was definitely plugged into Season 1 of DS9, and had others not unplugged it, DS9 would have been exactly like TNG and Voyager and Enterprise due to Berman's formula.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Wow, talk about resurrecting old threads!

Anyhow, I agree with Garrett Wang for the most part, but yeah - regardless of what he says, he must not have paid much attention to DS9, because Ira Behr unplugged that show from Rick Berman's 'formula', without question.

That, in fact, is the main reason why DS9 is so reviled in some circles - because it was supposedly so different from the other Trek shows.

 

[exodus]

Wow, talk about resurrecting old threads!

Anyhow, I agree with Garrett Wang for the most part, but yeah - regardless of what he says, he must not have paid much attention to DS9, because Ira Behr unplugged that show from Rick Berman's 'formula', without question.

That, in fact, is the main reason why DS9 is so reviled in some circles - because it was supposedly so different from the other Trek shows.

Actually Berman was following Gene Roddenberry's "formula". Roddenberry did teach Berman what he expected of Trek before he died. Ira never worked with Roddenberry. Behr even admitted going into the project of overseening DS9 that he hates Trek and tried to make it as un-Trek as he was allowed.

TOS, TNG & Voy are all what Trek is meant to be, DS9 is an exception to the rule. Notice how Sisko never once tried to make peace with the Dominion, instead he openly accepted war. That isn't what Starfleet or the Federation was designed for. Their goal is to try to establish peace first, if not the Prime Directive of non-interferance comes into play. That's exactly why things like the Nutural Zone & Demiliterized Zone exist.

 

[JoeZhang]

Their goal is to try to establish peace first, if not the Prime Directive of non-interferance comes into play. That's exactly why things like the Nutural Zone & Demiliterized Zone exist.

Didn't both of those things exist because of.. war?

 

[exodus]

Their goal is to try to establish peace first, if not the Prime Directive of non-interferance comes into play. That's exactly why things like the Nutural Zone & Demiliterized Zone exist.

Didn't both of those things exist because of.. war?

I don't recall any mention of Starfleet ever going to war with the Romulans.

The Federation conflict with the Romulans was equal to the US/Russia "Cold War", where the conflict was idology & industural competition.

 

[freak]

Perhaps if he'd turned up for fucking work on time, he might have had a shot.

Agreed. He's just blowing hot air, I think. This is kind of rude to Rick Berman. If it hadn't been for him, Wang wouldn't have had a job. He needs to be thankful for crying out loud! And if he would have shown up to work on time, he probably would have gotten a great shot at it. I'll bet the producers didn't think they could trust him cause he was always running late and putting him in the director's chair would have made things a little hectic cause of his tardiness. I do like the guy, but come on! Direct something else if you want to! Good lord!

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Actually Berman was following Gene Roddenberry's "formula". Roddenberry did teach Berman what he expected of Trek before he died. Ira never worked with Roddenberry. Behr even admitted going into the project of overseening DS9 that he hates Trek and tried to make it as un-Trek as he was allowed.

Thats not true, is it?

 

[exodus]

Perhaps if he'd turned up for fucking work on time, he might have had a shot.

Agreed. He's just blowing hot air, I think. This is kind of rude to Rick Berman. If it hadn't been for him, Wang wouldn't have had a job. He needs to be thankful for crying out loud! And if he would have shown up to work on time, he probably would have gotten a great shot at it. I'll bet the producers didn't think they could trust him cause he was always running late and putting him in the director's chair would have made things a little hectic cause of his tardiness. I do like the guy, but come on! Direct something else if you want to! Good lord!

Exactly.

If Wang had been let go instead of Lien, what would have been his excuse then?

Wang is blaming others but himself. He was given a second oppertunity by being kept on the show and he still didn't take advantage of it. He was lazy in his youth and now tgat he's older and dying for a career, he's living with regret. However, he can't pass blame for choices he willingly made. Part of being mature is taking responsability for your own actions.

 

[exodus]

Actually Berman was following Gene Roddenberry's "formula". Roddenberry did teach Berman what he expected of Trek before he died. Ira never worked with Roddenberry. Behr even admitted going into the project of overseening DS9 that he hates Trek and tried to make it as un-Trek as he was allowed.

Thats not true, is it?

Yep, it is.

When Tiffany's was running an auction for Trek props & wardrobe, they did a TV special for it.(I believe it aired on PBS) They interviewed all the producers of Trek, Ira Behr openly on camera admitted to not liking the Trek and wanted to make DS9 as non-Trek as allowed.

Berman did work side by side with Roddenberry up until the time he passed away. He taught Berman everything he knew and wanted Trek to be because he knew Berman would be the one to continue Trek after he was dead.

 

[kimc]

I don't recall any mention of Starfleet ever going to war with the Romulans.

One of the early TOS episodes in which the Enterprose met up with a Romulan ship (where the captain looked like Spock's dad ) mentioned an earlier war with the Romulans which resulted in the establishment of the neutral zone. Unfortunately, I can't remember the title...

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Wow, talk about resurrecting old threads!

Anyhow, I agree with Garrett Wang for the most part, but yeah - regardless of what he says, he must not have paid much attention to DS9, because Ira Behr unplugged that show from Rick Berman's 'formula', without question.

That, in fact, is the main reason why DS9 is so reviled in some circles - because it was supposedly so different from the other Trek shows.

Actually Berman was following Gene Roddenberry's "formula". Roddenberry did teach Berman what he expected of Trek before he died. Ira never worked with Roddenberry. Behr even admitted going into the project of overseening DS9 that he hates Trek and tried to make it as un-Trek as he was allowed.

TOS, TNG & Voy are all what Trek is meant to be, DS9 is an exception to the rule. Notice how Sisko never once tried to make peace with the Dominion, instead he openly accepted war. That isn't what Starfleet or the Federation was designed for. Their goal is to try to establish peace first, if not the Prime Directive of non-interferance comes into play. That's exactly why things like the Nutural Zone & Demiliterized Zone exist.

Tell you what: You want to argue with me about DS9? Come to the DS9 forum where it will be oh...say...remotely on topic. In fact, there is a thread about your issue right now in there - you don't even have to start a new one! Bonus!

However, last I checked, this thread was about Garrett Wang's comments about Rick Berman, and my reply DIRECTLY addressed his comments by pointing out an inaccuracy in those comments.

This thread is not about whether or not DS9 was 'true' Star Trek, was true to Roddenberry's 'vision', blah, blah, blah.....and this forum is not the place to debate that issue. In fact, my reply didn't even touch on Gene Roddenberry...so I don't even know where that part of your attack came from.

I get that you have an agenda here...but this is not the place to make your case.

Or do you hijack every DS9 fan's posts made in the VOY forum in an effort to start an argument?

I came in here to discuss VOY (which I happen to LIKE), and I came into this thread to discuss Garrett Wang's comments about Rick Berman. Not to argue about whether or not DS9 is 'true' Star Trek.

Jesus...and some people claim it is the DS9 fans who keep this little 'war' going.

Maybe I will just link to this thread the next time it comes up.

Now I remember why, despite the fact that I love Voyager...I never post in this forum. It's all coming back to me now......

 

[exodus]

Wow, talk about resurrecting old threads!

Anyhow, I agree with Garrett Wang for the most part, but yeah - regardless of what he says, he must not have paid much attention to DS9, because Ira Behr unplugged that show from Rick Berman's 'formula', without question.

That, in fact, is the main reason why DS9 is so reviled in some circles - because it was supposedly so different from the other Trek shows.

Actually Berman was following Gene Roddenberry's "formula". Roddenberry did teach Berman what he expected of Trek before he died. Ira never worked with Roddenberry. Behr even admitted going into the project of overseening DS9 that he hates Trek and tried to make it as un-Trek as he was allowed.

TOS, TNG & Voy are all what Trek is meant to be, DS9 is an exception to the rule. Notice how Sisko never once tried to make peace with the Dominion, instead he openly accepted war. That isn't what Starfleet or the Federation was designed for. Their goal is to try to establish peace first, if not the Prime Directive of non-interferance comes into play. That's exactly why things like the Nutural Zone & Demiliterized Zone exist.

Tell you what: You want to argue with me about DS9? Come to the DS9 forum where it will be oh...say...remotely on topic. In fact, there is a thread about your issue right now in there - you don't even have to start a new one! Bonus!

However, last I checked, this thread was about Garrett Wang's comments about Rick Berman, and my reply DIRECTLY addressed his comments by pointing out an inaccuracy in those comments.

This thread is not about whether or not DS9 was 'true' Star Trek, was true to Roddenberry's 'vision', blah, blah, blah.....and this forum is not the place to debate that issue. In fact, my reply didn't even touch on Gene Roddenberry...so I don't even know where that part of your attack came from.

I get that you have an agenda here...but this is not the place to make your case.

Or do you hijack every DS9 fan's posts made in the VOY forum in an effort to start an argument?

I came in here to discuss VOY, and I came into this thread to discuss Garrett Wang's comments about Rick Berman. Not to argue about whether or not DS9 is 'true' Star Trek.

Jesus...and some people claim it is the DS9 fans who keep this little 'war' going.

Maybe I will just link to this thread the next time it comes up.

Attack?

Agenda?

Please, it's called "conversation".
Try to learn how to carry one instead of rolling your eyes and being condescending.

BTW, great way to lead by example being a MOD and all.
Anymore immature personal attacks you wish to throw my way all over a TV show?

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ I wasn't the one who started the argument by going completely off-topic, just to get in a few slams at DS9.

exodus, I was born at night, but not last night.

 

[exodus]

^ I wasn't the one who started the argument by going completely off-topic, just to get in a few slams at DS9.

exodus, I was born at night, but not last night.

.....and this is putting us back on topic?

 

[HRHTheKING]

A few comments:

- He's talking bollocks when describing DS9 as following the same formula as TNG. DS9 was nothing like TNG. It was designed to be the anti-TNG and it certainly was that. But he's right when he says VOY tried to follow the TNG formula.

- So he didn't get to direct an episode. So what? Big deal. Boo hoo. Wang was lucky to be on that show for seven seasons, let along being allowed to direct an episode. He should have been cut at the same time Lien was.

 

[kimc]

Now I remember why, despite the fact that I love Voyager...I never post in this forum. It's all coming back to me now......

Attack?

Agenda?

Please, it's called "conversation".
Try to learn how to carry one instead of rolling your eyes and being condescending.

BTW, great way to lead by example being a MOD and all.
Anymore immature personal attacks you wish to throw my way all over a TV show?

You two are making me cry into my coffee.

exodus: I don't know what the history is or isn't between you two - I can only go by the printed word here. Calling someone immature in a public thread though isn't cool. Consider this a friendly.

PKTrekGirl: In all fairness the rolling eyes icon can be misinterpreted in many ways - whether you meant anything by it or not. Anyway, please feel free to post in the forum - it's good to get people dropping by who normally don't.

If you guys need to take this to pm then please do so. I enjoy both your posts so go work out what you need to work out then come on back!

 

[warriorsfan]

I don't recall any mention of Starfleet ever going to war with the Romulans.

Earth-Romulan War:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Earth-Romulan_War

 

[exodus]

Now I remember why, despite the fact that I love Voyager...I never post in this forum. It's all coming back to me now......

Attack?

Agenda?

Please, it's called "conversation".
Try to learn how to carry one instead of rolling your eyes and being condescending.

BTW, great way to lead by example being a MOD and all.
Anymore immature personal attacks you wish to throw my way all over a TV show?

You two are making me cry into my coffee.

exodus: I don't know what the history is or isn't between you two - I can only go by the printed word here. Calling someone immature in a public thread though isn't cool. Consider this a friendly.

PKTrekGirl: In all fairness the rolling eyes icon can be misinterpreted in many ways - whether you meant anything by it or not. Anyway, please feel free to post in the forum - it's good to get people dropping by who normally don't.

If you guys need to take this to pm then please do so. I enjoy both your posts so go work out what you need to work out then come on back!

That's fine.

I have PM'ed both of you on the matter.

Thanks for the follow up,warriorsfan. I wasn't aware the was a war between the two.

 

[kimc]

I have PM'ed both of you on the matter.

Yeah, I love mail!