• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Garak, Dukat, Winn

I want to start a discussion about Garak, Dukat, and Winn as possibly the most fleshed out characters of Star Trek. I don't care about canon. My foils are obviously Spock (for Garak), Kirk (for Dukat), and Picard (for Winn).

Definitely three standouts in a show chock-filled with great characters, where none of them feels minor or as an afterthought, only underused -- if anything. O'Brien's probably my favorite given his relationships with Keiko and Bashir, and because he's one of the few characters that isn't gray area as such, but the Quark/Odo pairing never got old. But I digress as much as the sky is blue until dusk... beneath an orange, pink, purple, and/or steel sky at night...

Garak is almost like DS9's version of Q, only that he is a more quantified and constrained antihero - and without the magical powers that even Jeannie and Samantha are jealous of. This adds a new dimension (snork!) in ways that they couldn't even do in "Deja Q" since he can't snap his fingers to pester someone half across the galaxy some lengthy 2-seconds later.

Winn is the Kai you just love to loathe.

Dukat - like fine wine in a warehouse store full of cheese. Gouda cheese, of course, as DS9 is never less than that. Even in its worst episodes. Well, most of them, there's one that just came to mind that's Limburger made from the milk of a barrel full of skunks. Nothing's perfect, but I digress... again...

IMHO - not just the scripting and fleshing out, but noting the actors and their careers. Whether typecasting was a factor or not, it's impossible not to be floored by how monumentally awesome they are in defining and adding to these characters. Louise Fletcher had quite a handle on Winn's development, and Andy Robinson never ceases to impress. I can make silly in-jokes about being born under the sign of Scorpio as a nod to "Dirty Harry" (he's not in it much but, damn, he steals the show), but the guy could make reading the ingredients of industrial-strength bathroom cleaner of the sort that requires wearing gloves due to chemical burn risk seem genuinely compelling as a result. Now imagine if Garak, as played by Robinson, was decidedly on the evil side, instead of being on the goodie side but with shifty eyes. (oops, I just went into typecast-mode...) Marc Alaimo certainly holds his own and has an impressive list of credits as well, I recall him in "Total Recall" as the no-nonsense/dry-snarky captain Everett, even appearing in the final "Dirty Harry" movie that I have yet to see...
 
The Cardassians reminded me of the British Empire during the occupation of Scotland and Ireland; they were brutal in the treatment of the people and they were very arrogant. Not everything tragedy has to equate to the Nazis; its really cliché comparison to anything that was wrong.
You have some points here, even if I do find certain similarities between Nazi Germany and Cardassia.
Not to mention that in some Eastern European countries, especially in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, the Soviet occupation was and still is considered as even worse than the Nazi Germany occupation. And note that i'm not trying to downgrade what the Nazis did in any way.
 
You have some points here, even if I do find certain similarities between Nazi Germany and Cardassia.
Not to mention that in some Eastern European countries, especially in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, the Soviet occupation was and still is considered as even worse than the Nazi Germany occupation. And note that i'm not trying to downgrade what the Nazis did in any way.

It's good that the atrocities done by the Nazi's were well documented so any evil Empire was created for fiction has to be pigeon holed as NAZISM. Too bad other circumstances hasn't been as recognized such as the British rule, the reign of Joseph Stalin or even the tyranny that still happens in the Middle East where fans can make subjective comparisons.

As for Garak, I thought it was pretty clear if circumstances were different he would and will do anything for the honor of Cardassia. He's not Q, he's a decisive, strategic genius who has thought out every avenue of creating and opposing an immediate threat. It could be Bajorans, Federation, even allies such as Bashir, or DS9, the man is a lethal weapon and I always felt there was an "End game" to everything he's done. This means having an affair with Ziyal and not use it in some fashion to thwart his sworn enemy was completely out of character for Garak. Kira is keen on Garak but I laugh out loud if she thinks he's burdened by her threats dealing with Dukat's half-breed daughter; he's already figured it out.

How unexpected and shocking it could've been if Garak killed Ziyal right in front of Dukat? It would've been mind blowing but with some thought a tiger doesn't change its stripes.

Unlike the Ferengi episodes which were scales of nonsense, scenes between Garak and Dukat or any real Cardassian, not DAMAR, were never waisted in the 1st 3 seasons. Speaking in total subtext and not showing much human formality presented how much they were adversaries, but respected how dangerous they were and wouldn't dare turn their backs on themselves.

Although I felt he was consistent to the characteristics of a Cardassian; Garak was the example of a diabolical mind and there should've been a struggle to examine himself and whether he could exist in a Cardassia which was less diabolical. Unfortunately, after Season 3, the magic was lost from the Cardassian race when the showrunners weren't invested in them anymore.
 
Dukat was about to shoot his own daughter, when Kira intervened. Not exactly devoted to family.
I guess Natima Lang, a professor of ethics in the Cardassian underground, represents some hope for the species.
It depends on how ones value system views "family". Even within most human cultures there are elements of honor, social standing and paternal/maternal authority that conflict with events to produce less than ideal outcomes. The shame and dishonor and resulting loss of status of having a half-Bajorian daughter might have motivated him to kill his daughter to save his family. This would be self serving but could also be justified to protect the status of his other children or wife, that we knew Dukat had on Cardassia. To our current culture Dukats actions are abhorrent but in the Cardassian value system his actions could be considered understandable or even fully justifiable, its this juxtaposition of values and circumstances that makes the situation interesting and brings up conflict or doubt on Dukats true level of villainy. Is he simply a monster killing his daughter to protect himself or a man trapped in a culture that encourages him to murder his daughter for family obligation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: kkt
It's good that the atrocities done by the Nazi's were well documented so any evil Empire was created for fiction has to be pigeon holed as NAZISM. Too bad other circumstances hasn't been as recognized such as the British rule, the reign of Joseph Stalin or even the tyranny that still happens in the Middle East where fans can make subjective comparisons.

As for Garak, I thought it was pretty clear if circumstances were different he would and will do anything for the honor of Cardassia. He's not Q, he's a decisive, strategic genius who has thought out every avenue of creating and opposing an immediate threat. It could be Bajorans, Federation, even allies such as Bashir, or DS9, the man is a lethal weapon and I always felt there was an "End game" to everything he's done. This means having an affair with Ziyal and not use it in some fashion to thwart his sworn enemy was completely out of character for Garak. Kira is keen on Garak but I laugh out loud if she thinks he's burdened by her threats dealing with Dukat's half-breed daughter; he's already figured it out.

How unexpected and shocking it could've been if Garak killed Ziyal right in front of Dukat? It would've been mind blowing but with some thought a tiger doesn't change its stripes.

Unlike the Ferengi episodes which were scales of nonsense, scenes between Garak and Dukat or any real Cardassian, not DAMAR, were never waisted in the 1st 3 seasons. Speaking in total subtext and not showing much human formality presented how much they were adversaries, but respected how dangerous they were and wouldn't dare turn their backs on themselves.

Although I felt he was consistent to the characteristics of a Cardassian; Garak was the example of a diabolical mind and there should've been a struggle to examine himself and whether he could exist in a Cardassia which was less diabolical. Unfortunately, after Season 3, the magic was lost from the Cardassian race when the showrunners weren't invested in them anymore.

@STEPhon IT

Loved that post! Thanks for mentioning Stalin and Britannica! Not that Russia-Ukraine give us much hope. Even today.

I'm Indian, so I'm somewhat biased on matters of war or colonialism (the most fundamental self-challenge that the UFP face).

I really appreciate that you're getting us to think about how overused the term "NAZISM" is. As though, just by classifying something as mid 20th C, we could redeem ourselves.
 
You have some points here, even if I do find certain similarities between Nazi Germany and Cardassia.
Not to mention that in some Eastern European countries, especially in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, the Soviet occupation was and still is considered as even worse than the Nazi Germany occupation. And note that i'm not trying to downgrade what the Nazis did in any way.

You know
You have some points here, even if I do find certain similarities between Nazi Germany and Cardassia.
Not to mention that in some Eastern European countries, especially in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, the Soviet occupation was and still is considered as even worse than the Nazi Germany occupation. And note that i'm not trying to downgrade what the Nazis did in any way.

You know, @Lynx, when I was studying "European History!"...sheesh! ...I'd wonder where the rest of *Eastern* Europe went.

Well, now I know.
 
I just rewatched “The Collaborator”- more compelling than I remembered. The tense dynamic between Winn and Kira – as well as Winn and Sisko - is so well drawn. Every line Adami utters is cringeworthy; her condescension, hypocrisy and corruption are blatant. And yet the writers throw in a few sympathetic attributes every once in awhile, which make her less two-dimensional as a villain….the backstory of being imprisoned and beaten for 5 years by the Cardassians for promoting the Bajoran faith. Her long-lasting devotion to the Prophets, that went unrewarded by any guidance or appearance from them…and when she thinks she did receive an orb vision it turned out to be from the the Pah’Wraiths. She tried to help the Bajoran people a number of times. She was capable of speaking words that rang true, e.g. “The Prophets teach us that while violence may keep an enemy at bay…only peace can make him a friend” (“Life Support”). And finally there’s the last desperate attempt to reverse the evil she chose.
I tend to avoid episodes featuring Winn, yet I have to admit Louise Fletcher put these conflicting traits together in a convincing way. Wonder if there was any recent public figure the character was partly based on.
 
Last edited:
I want to start a discussion about Garak, Dukat, and Winn as possibly the most fleshed out characters of Star Trek. My foils are obviously Spock (for Garak), Kirk (for Dukat), and Picard (for Winn).
Three very complex characters... just curious as to why Picard would be the natural "foil" for Winn - or Kirk for Dukat -- Spock for Garak - ?
 
Last edited:
It's good that the atrocities done by the Nazi's were well documented so any evil Empire was created for fiction has to be pigeon holed as NAZISM. Too bad other circumstances hasn't been as recognized such as the British rule, the reign of Joseph Stalin or even the tyranny that still happens in the Middle East where fans can make subjective comparisons.

As for Garak, I thought it was pretty clear if circumstances were different he would and will do anything for the honor of Cardassia. He's not Q, he's a decisive, strategic genius who has thought out every avenue of creating and opposing an immediate threat. It could be Bajorans, Federation, even allies such as Bashir, or DS9, the man is a lethal weapon and I always felt there was an "End game" to everything he's done. This means having an affair with Ziyal and not use it in some fashion to thwart his sworn enemy was completely out of character for Garak. Kira is keen on Garak but I laugh out loud if she thinks he's burdened by her threats dealing with Dukat's half-breed daughter; he's already figured it out.

How unexpected and shocking it could've been if Garak killed Ziyal right in front of Dukat? It would've been mind blowing but with some thought a tiger doesn't change its stripes.

Unlike the Ferengi episodes which were scales of nonsense, scenes between Garak and Dukat or any real Cardassian, not DAMAR, were never waisted in the 1st 3 seasons. Speaking in total subtext and not showing much human formality presented how much they were adversaries, but respected how dangerous they were and wouldn't dare turn their backs on themselves.

Although I felt he was consistent to the characteristics of a Cardassian; Garak was the example of a diabolical mind and there should've been a struggle to examine himself and whether he could exist in a Cardassia which was less diabolical. Unfortunately, after Season 3, the magic was lost from the Cardassian race when the showrunners weren't invested in them anymore.

I agree about your comments considering the Nazi's and how well-documented they are.
But there are certain empires which were as bad and maybe even worse but they're getting away from being as condemned as the Nazi's which is actually a shame. Not to mention that "space Nazi's" has become a cliche in many movies and series. A fictional, future or galactic empire can be as bad or ever worse but it can't be exactly like the Nazi state.

When I wrote a certain story some years ago, I created a dictator which was a combination of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, the Kims in North Korea and a person which I had a conflict with at that point.

(I really regret that last thing because we made peace, became good friends and so, not to mention that the person died a couple of years later which made me feel bad over including that person in the story and I actually changed some things in the story after that. Still I have regrets so I might re-write the story totally in the future, who knows.)

Anyway, one of the persons who read and appreciated the story thought that the fictional dictator must have been modeled after Fidel Castro! :eek:

That was a bit weird because I never thought of Castro, when I thought up the scenario, although I have to admit that the fictional dictator may have had some similarities with the Cuban dictator.

(Besides that, most of the characters I make up are actually based on people I've met or know or combinations of some of them, except for the Star Trek characters which are taken from Star Trek!) :techman:

Anyway, when it comes to Garak, I don't think he is the ice cold "lethal weapon" which you desrcibe him as.

No doubt that he is a top-trained secret agent, capable to a lot of things and that he mostly use people he know and certain situations to his own advantage.

We could see that in Improbable Cause, the episode where he tortured Odo and the following episode The Die Is Cast and also in the episode Profit And Loss where he's actually going to hand over Natima Lang hand her two companions to the Cardassians.

But obviously garak did have compassion too, maybe a flaw for an agent of the Obsidian Order but something which makes the character interesting in many ways. When he realized that Tain's plan was futile, he shifted his loyalty back to the federation people and he actually did seem to regret the harm he caused to Odo. The same when it comes to that fantastic twist in the tale when, instead of shooting Quark or natima, he vaporizes Toran, who he obviously hated when he found out that Toran had cheated him.

When it came to Tora Ziyal, I guess that Garak actually had some feelings for her. My theory is that he actually planned to use her in some way to get revenge on Dukat but that changed a bit when he started to have feelings for Tora Ziyal. Maybe he felt sorry for her in some way too. Therefore I think that a scenario where garak would have killed Tora Ziyal in front of Dukat couldn't have happened. Not to mention that a Garak-Ziyal relationship would have insulted and hurt Dukat even more. :)

But all that is just what makes Garak such a fantastic character!
Good or bad, you never really know! :cardie:

As for the Ferengi episodes, I did find some of them funny. Not to mentioned that they lightened up Deep Space Nine so the series never became that "dark" series which it's often referred to as being. In fact the, "lighter" episodes here and there prevented that.

As for Quark, he's my second favorite after Garak in DS9.
Also a character with great depth who could surprise the viewers from time to time.

As for Damar, I know that you dislike him and therefore I'm not going ti debate him right now.
But I don't think he was that bad as a character. Not to mention that in my studies of history, I have found many Damar-like persons here and there so I find the character plausible and rather realistic in some ways.
 
Last edited:
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was not dark, it was definitely different from TNG which was the design but from its beginnings I thought it was engaging in situations where the crew could not just wrap it up and fly away. They had to be smart and be clever in solving the cases they dealt with - without having a full scaled war*. Ever since I was introduced to the Cardassians in TNG "The Wounded" I found them to be as complexed as their outfits they wear. Dukat, along with Garak were Wild card characters, nothing seems as it appears to be, very unpredictable and the most dangerous foe Star Trek has ever created.
Unfortunately, they were too good for DS9 because mind games was just not interesting enough to capture new viewers and had Trek fans split. With GOAT Janeway spreading her wings of superiority on VOY and taking what's left of TNG crowd, DS9 had to sell out and make the show less compelling and have villains who were more galactic in threat to give a more BANG for your buck mindless show.

With the 3 characters on this thread I felt they were more dangerous when they kept their hands clean while manipulating events behind the curtain. These characters were hard to define in the first 3 seasons but in the 4th - 7th they were defined because we saw them got their hands dirty and its weak. Ira Behr just never understood the magic Michael Pillar created for those characters.

*Which of course they ridiculously had one.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top