Garak, Dukat, Winn
- Thread starter Whizkid
- Start date
Pretty much of of DS9's characters (both main and recurring) are among the most fleshed out, nuanced and interesting in the entire franchise, from those whose morals and side you question in almost every episode, to heroes who were shades of grey, to villains who were so well written and presented you wanted to know more despite being such awful people.
Lots of characters in Trek. I only really know the ones from DS9 from the beginning to end of a series so would be unable to address the other shows. Would you include movies? Print literature?
Dukat definitely took the longest and most convoluted journey of development. From station prefect to Cardassian officer to underling to freedom fighter to negotiator and leader of his people to madman to demon priest... yeah.
In terms of steps of development, Nog isn't far behind him. Worth adding to your list, maybe?
In terms of steps of development, Nog isn't far behind him. Worth adding to your list, maybe?
Could you say that about the Founders and the Dominion?
They have their moments.
The Changlings and the Dominion from my standpoint were never fleshed out like what was done brilliantly with the Cardassians. Not even close, just shows the writing and production can make anyone dangerous if the scenarios are geared to involve fear and paranoia which a group of characters never earned. Eddington is another sickle cell I'll include.
I don't think there's all that much complexity to Kai Winn. She's a sanctimonious, self-serving bitch to everybody, all the time. Yeah she's angry that the Prophets don't talk to her, but that alone doesn't make her complex in my eyes.
And that one story about her, supposedly, selling jewels from her temple to help people alone doesn't magically make her complex either. We didn't get enough of that to make her complex, imo.
And I don't think she got any redemption at the end either, she just tried to switch to the winning team, again, and got killed in the process.
And that one story about her, supposedly, selling jewels from her temple to help people alone doesn't magically make her complex either. We didn't get enough of that to make her complex, imo.
And I don't think she got any redemption at the end either, she just tried to switch to the winning team, again, and got killed in the process.
Meh, that's 4th - 7th season crap and by that time the showrunners were all in on the Dominion.
@Captrek, you're on point with your perspective on that character which was I loved about her before becoming a Kai. Fletcher was marvelous in the role when the showrunners had an investment in the Bajoran/ Cardassian politics.
@Captrek, you're on point with your perspective on that character which was I loved about her before becoming a Kai. Fletcher was marvelous in the role when the showrunners had an investment in the Bajoran/ Cardassian politics.
@Oddish: Nog too, oh yes, definitely. Just that one episode where he gets his leg shot off and then begins to display signs of PTSD, redefined his arc. In general ST doesn't do a great job of portraying/dealing with psychological trauma. Case in point, T'Pol and her addiction.
Exceptions: Picard after his assimilation in "Family," (brilliant!) and Barclay's "Holodiction." Both TNG. But then TNG was something else.
As for DS9, it was by far the most sympathetic towards Ferengi. Not just Nog, but Rom too. And Quark! How deliciously sleazy! And yet, not.
Exceptions: Picard after his assimilation in "Family," (brilliant!) and Barclay's "Holodiction." Both TNG. But then TNG was something else.
As for DS9, it was by far the most sympathetic towards Ferengi. Not just Nog, but Rom too. And Quark! How deliciously sleazy! And yet, not.
@STEPhon IT. About the Dominion, Weyoun?! (Unless you argue the technical point that he's not really "a" character since there were 8 Weyouns.) 
As about Changelings, well obviously Odo.
As about Changelings, well obviously Odo.Hmm. Perhaps I saw Louise Fletcher's Winn through the lens of her "Nurse Ratched" (in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) and thus was primed to see what in fact was not there in her "Winn."
On the other hand, I found her dynamic with Kira and Dukat wonderfully portrayed (not so much with Sisko). Even that scene where Vedek Bareil is about to die, she shows herself torn between ambition, a secret joy, but also quite possibly loss and guilt.
We only met 5, though.
4 - Vaporized at the end of "To the Death".
5 - Died off screen.
6 - Committed suicide in "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River"
7 - Neck snapped by Worf
8 - Killed by Garak in series finale.
Basically, Weyoun was Kenny McCormick, but he didn't die nearly as much. I think the funniest death was Weyoun 7. Never make Worf mad. You could be charged as an accessory to your own murder.
As for the complexity of characters, Winn Adami is the type of person that you're warned about in Sunday School and at the same time, you might see that same person in the church, praised for how "strong" she is.
Skrain Dukat: He was the type of villain you love to hate, because he makes you almost trust him. And let's face it, in Season 4, he seemed something like an anti-hero after he got Ziyal and decided to take care of her. And then he showed his true colors. And we hated him again. And then he lost Ziyal and we thought we'd seen him become a pitiable creature. And then his true hatred came out. And we found out that, among other things, Nerys and Ziyal were essentially stepsisters, which made Dukat's interest in Kira even creepier. He's the pervy stepfather who also happens to be worse than Hitler. Honestly, selling his soul to the Bajoran equivalent of the devil works for what he truly becomes.
Elim Garak: I love how, over seven seasons, we did get to see him as... I'm not sure if maverick is the right word, or anti-hero or chaotic something. But we learned about him. He was a spy and was conflicted about the war. He was the illegitimate son of the head of his homeworld's spy agency and was exiled. Garak is amoral and fascinating.
If you want a Biblical equivalent of that woman, look no further than Caiaphas, the high priest who was the prime mover in Christ's crucifixion.
Dukat showed that even non-main characters can cover an incredible arc: station prefect, to government official, to man in disgrace, to guerilla, to turncoat, to head of state, to broken prisoner, to the equivalent of the antichrist.
A man with his own agenda, that's for sure.
Weyoun, I have to admit was very interesting, but I never saw him other than a personal simp to the Mother Changling or Leader Lady or Lady liquid leader; a sideshow guy for comic relief. The Sisko I remember in the 1st 3 seasons would've punched his lights out every time his smug face entered his presence. I never saw that fool as a threat like I found the likes of "The Circle" Minister Jaro or the Cardassians Gul Evek . Nothing about the Dominions character, or lack there of, represented the events that occurred during their reign of stories, everything seemed to just happen because the horrible writing said it had to. Like Eddington being the master LORD of the Maquis.@STEPhon IT. About the Dominion, Weyoun?! (Unless you argue the technical point that he's not really "a" character since there were 8 Weyouns.)
I stand corrected, Odo was a wonderful changeling... until he became a royal simp to Kira. A romance I found zero chemistry.
Garak is my favorite DS9 character, together with Quark.
I like Garak because he was exciting from start to end, you never know if he was a "good guy" or a "bad guy".
Dukat was a great villain, one of the best in Star Trek and the Cardassians were the ebst villains in Star Trek, mostly because they were so complex.
They had no super-powers och super-technology like the over-rated Borg. They were just cunning and calculating, you could never know if they were enemies or friends. Both Garak and Dukat are good examples of that. There were times where I wondered if garak should join the bad side and there were times when I actually wondered if Dukat would become a "good character" in the long run.
Quark is a great character, both funny, devious and calculating at the same time. I always enjoyed the episodes wher he was one of the main character.
I also like Weyoun. Sort of a character one loves to hate. Slimy, cunning, calculating and as such a bit funny and interesting to watch.
I also like Winn. Not as much as Dukat and Weyoun when it comes to villains but still a good villain as such. Not to mention that she looks like my mother's aunt which I remember from my childhood.
I like Garak because he was exciting from start to end, you never know if he was a "good guy" or a "bad guy".
Dukat was a great villain, one of the best in Star Trek and the Cardassians were the ebst villains in Star Trek, mostly because they were so complex.
They had no super-powers och super-technology like the over-rated Borg. They were just cunning and calculating, you could never know if they were enemies or friends. Both Garak and Dukat are good examples of that. There were times where I wondered if garak should join the bad side and there were times when I actually wondered if Dukat would become a "good character" in the long run.
Quark is a great character, both funny, devious and calculating at the same time. I always enjoyed the episodes wher he was one of the main character.
I also like Weyoun. Sort of a character one loves to hate. Slimy, cunning, calculating and as such a bit funny and interesting to watch.
I also like Winn. Not as much as Dukat and Weyoun when it comes to villains but still a good villain as such. Not to mention that she looks like my mother's aunt which I remember from my childhood.
Hahahah! Your mother's aunt?: "a good villain as such?" What a brilliant description! (Just so long as she's not within earshot.
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