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Garak and Ziyal: Did it bother you?

DS9 Gal AZ

Captain
Captain
I've heard that there were people who were bothered by the Garak and Ziyal "romance," such as it was, feeling that Garak was much too old for her, etc. I for one, never found it disturbing. I even kind of liked it. Here's why:

1.) I never thought Garak's intent was to "seduce" Ziyal. I saw as more Garak just being lonely and missing his own kind (even though Ziyal was half-Bajoran).

2.) I never really thought their relationship went beyond the "holding hands and talking" phase. They kissed in "A Call to Arms," a kiss which Ziyal initiated, and it was probably the first (and only) time they kissed. If anything, Ziyal was probably the one that was more "agressive" in the relationship, i.e., more eager to label it as romance. Garak seemed both flattered and puzzled by her attachment to him.

3.) There is nothing inherently wrong with May-December relationships as long as both parties are consenting adults.

4.) Despite the subtext, we were never going to get Garak/Bashir, but Garak/Ziyal kind of parallels Garak/Bashir. In both cases, Garak is drawn to someone who is younger and relatively "innocent," and in both cases, he is rather puzzled as to why they show compassion for him, why they care for him.

I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks.
 
I've heard that there were people who were bothered by the Garak and Ziyal "romance," such as it was, feeling that Garak was much too old for her, etc. I for one, never found it disturbing. I even kind of liked it. Here's why:

1.) I never thought Garak's intent was to "seduce" Ziyal. I saw as more Garak just being lonely and missing his own kind (even though Ziyal was half-Bajoran).

2.) I never really thought their relationship went beyond the "holding hands and talking" phase. They kissed in "A Call to Arms," a kiss which Ziyal initiated, and it was probably the first (and only) time they kissed. If anything, Ziyal was probably the one that was more "agressive" in the relationship, i.e., more eager to label it as romance. Garak seemed both flattered and puzzled by her attachment to him.

If you mean Puzzled as in paranoid on whether she was going to kill him, I agree ;)

3.) There is nothing inherently wrong with May-December relationships as long as both parties are consenting adults.

4.) Despite the subtext, we were never going to get Garak/Bashir, but Garak/Ziyal kind of parallels Garak/Bashir. In both cases, Garak is drawn to someone who is younger and relatively "innocent," and in both cases, he is rather puzzled as to why they show compassion for him, why they care for him.

I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

I never had an issue with it.... I knew Garak was older then her, but they never specified how old he was (to my knowledge) and based on the situation, they were the only two cardassians on the station and their options were pretty limited, since Garak was banished from Cardassia, most Bajorans hated him and everybody else didn't trust him..... and Ziyal was half Cardassian and half Bajoran, thus Cardassians didn't like her, and while most Bajorans showed sympathy and support for most half Cardassian/bajorans.... she was still the daughter of Dukat.

It's not like she was 12 and Garak decided to scoop her up and take her to his dungeon. :vulcan:
 
Never botherd me either. Even found it understandable for the characters, as both of them needed something familiar and company. However Garak was not in love with her, not truly. Ziyal might have been, but it was no "mature love".
Also as Praxius said, both were adults...Ziyal must have been 20 years old...old enough to make her own decisions and Garak never initiated anything anyway.


TerokNor
 
and Ziyal was half Cardassian and half Bajoran, thus Cardassians didn't like her, and while most Bajorans showed sympathy and support for most half Cardassian/bajorans.... she was still the daughter of Dukat.

Exactly. I don't think Ziyal neccessarily had issues on Bajor because she was half-Cardassian, but because the half of her that was Cardassian came from Gul Dukat, former Prefect of Bajor, hated and reviled by the Bajoran people. If she had been the daughter of Tora Neprim and some random Cardassian soldier, it probably wouldn't have been as bad. Both she and Garak were these people struggling to find a place to belong.

As to whether Garak was in love with her or not, he certainly felt affection for her, but I don't know that he would allow himself to love her. Did Ziyal herself ever actually say she loved Garak? All I remember about her loving Garak or not is that sad scene from "Sacrifice of Angels," with Kira and Garak and Ziyal's dead body.

Kira: She loved you.
Garak: I could never understand why. *strokes Ziyal's face* Now I suppose I never will.

*sniff sniff* Damn...
 
That was a terrific scene. I never had a problem with their relationship, either. I always imagined Garak as a man in his mid-30s or so. Being with someone around 20 isn't something I consider inherently problematic. The person of 20 just needs to be mature enough and all.

What is a May-December romance?
 
It was fine by me because of the way it was done. If Garak had acted differently though it might have grossed me out but he was the perfect gentleman just as I'd expect him to be. Poor Ziyal, killed as a plot tool for making Dukat crazy.
 
WOW. Really? :cardie: I seriously always thought it meant that people get together in the summer and break up in the winter. Boy, do I feel foolish. :alienblush:
 
That was a terrific scene. I never had a problem with their relationship, either. I always imagined Garak as a man in his mid-30s or so. Being with someone around 20 isn't something I consider inherently problematic. The person of 20 just needs to be mature enough and all.

What is a May-December romance?
I never thought that Garak was that young, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with any age difference as long as we're talking about consenting adults. And there was nothing sordid about it - I mean it's not like Garak was scooping Internet chatrooms to seduce teenagers, and it's not even like he was a rich old man and she was an ambitious gold-digger, or that he was married and then ditched his wife for a younger woman, or anything else that is the usual reason why people disapprove of some "May-December" relationships.

I can understand why some people thought that she was too innocent for Garak - rather than too young - but Ziyal was not naive, she was actually quite mature in many ways. And she and Garak did have a lot in common, including being the only Cardassians on the station and feeling like outcasts. People of very different ages may have a lot in common, more than people who are the same age but have had very different interests, experiences and worldviews.
 
Never bothered me either. Especially since it was quite innocent relationship, more like friendship with her strong infatuation.
 
I haven't seen DS9 apart from the last arc (it was on at a friend's house while I was crashing there for a couple of weeks) in a long time, so I could be thinking of Garak's age with insubstantial evidence to support it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I am, and I look forward to starting on the show again in a week or so.

Anyway, that's interesting, the May-December thing. I wonder what the origin of the phrase could be.
 
In a way, it sort of bothered me in that Ziyal was soooo naive. But that didn't bother me relationship-wise due to the fact that Garak's obviously knew about it, and didn't take advantage of it. He also seemed (for once) to be honest with regards to his dealings with her.

And age matters to me, but it doesn't matter to a lot of people. My friend's sister is in her mid-twenties, and she just married a guy who's in his... 50s or 60s, who just got divorced... she says age doesn't matter, and if she's happy then... that's what can anyone else say? And why?
 
Well, my sister is in her mid-thirties, and is dating a guy who is 21 - a point about which I mercilessly tease her ("hang around the high schools a lot, huh sis?" lol). But I agree with the majority, the relatinship never felt sordid, and Garak seemed perplexed. Just two needy ppl who "found" each other, IMO.
 
Ensign Johnson, i know that a whole lot of VOY fans found the C/7 creepy, for reasons other than the fact that it wasn't well devloped. Seems a lot of ppl have problems with the age difference. What do you think?
 
I kind of got the vibe that Ziyal pursued Garak and that he wasn't interested. I think he kept trying to let her down easy, but wasn't sure how to do that (after all, he's led a life of brutality instead).
 
I had no problem with their relationship. I also thought that Garek was always gentlemenly towards her and treated her with respect. He definitely had much affection for her, but not sure he truly loved her.
Was a great scene when he and Kira were with her body.
 
Hmm. Well, I thought in the beginning that Garak was gay, esp. the way he interacted with Bashir. It would've been interesting if that were the case and Bashir rejected him. Imagine what unrequited love would've done to a gay interrogator! I shudder at the thought!

Ziyal/Garak never bothered me, although I always thought Ziyal and Bashir would've made a better match. That would've stuck in Dukat's craw even more than his daughter and Garak getting together, I'd imagine!
 
If Bashir and Ziyal got together, Garak wouldn't know which one to be jealous of, LOL! Re: Garak being gay, Andrew Robinson has said several times that his initial intent was to portray Garak as an omni or pansexual attracted to Bashir.
 
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