Gaping plot hole which may have been covered already!

[Shazam!]

Makes them feel superior.

He says, from the highest or horses.

Its an opinion I formed based on observation. People like being "the smartest person in the room" and having knowledge that others seem to lack.

I know exactly what you mean.

- In all instances of Time Travel through the singularity, the ships involved had the possibility of protecting themselves from destruction before passing through/around the singularity itself, and thus remained intact through the "white hole" on the other side.
- In cases where a Star, Planet or Spacecraft is presumed destroyed, there was no capability via shielding or warp bubbles to protect said objects/vessels.
- Red Matter appears to be destabilized by extreme heat, since the 3 occasions in which a Singularity is generated, it is via accompanied by a heat source (Hobus Star, Vulcan's Core and the Jellyfish colliding with the Narada).

All of these attributes are consistent within the story, and the drilling to a planet's core to deliver the Red Matter to destroy said planet makes sense as a usage method.

The Red Matter and Black Hole has been consistent in it's behaviour from what I saw.

Seriously, though, it's not the black hole deciding. In the case of the black hole which swallowed the Hobus star/superdupernova, the Narada and the Jellyfish were too close when the black hole was formed and were drawn into the associated wormhole, while at the end of the movie, the black hole was formed inside the Narada, using its and the Jellyfish's matter. It's a matter of relative position: "we're traveling whole through a conduit triggered by the formation of a black hole made of this other matter" versus "whoops, we're imploding, because the black hole is being made of us!"

I'm no physicist nor do I play one on the internet, but time travel via blackhole/wormhole/Einstein-Rosen Bridge is something that has been theorized so I don't see a problem with the red matter created hole doing just that. A black hole can also "kill" you according to current theories, again no problem with the red matter created hole doing that. So yes there are at least two possibilities when interacting with a black hole: death or time travel. I guess the result would depend on the nature of the interaction.

 

[Saul]

Makes them feel superior.

He says, from the highest or horses.

Its an opinion I formed based on observation. People like being "the smartest person in the room" and having knowledge that others seem to lack. Reboots tend to make that knowledge irrelevent.

Heaven forbid I get accused of making myself feel superior but Star Trek isn't a reboot, it's an alternate timeline.

Also the warp core makes the ship go to warp, it doesn't make ice-cream cones. Red matter on the other hand might do that if required by the story.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He says, from the highest or horses.

Its an opinion I formed based on observation. People like being "the smartest person in the room" and having knowledge that others seem to lack.

I know exactly what you mean.

Seriously, though, it's not the black hole deciding. In the case of the black hole which swallowed the Hobus star/superdupernova, the Narada and the Jellyfish were too close when the black hole was formed and were drawn into the associated wormhole, while at the end of the movie, the black hole was formed inside the Narada, using its and the Jellyfish's matter. It's a matter of relative position: "we're traveling whole through a conduit triggered by the formation of a black hole made of this other matter" versus "whoops, we're imploding, because the black hole is being made of us!"

I'm no physicist nor do I play one on the internet, but time travel via blackhole/wormhole/Einstein-Rosen Bridge is something that has been theorized so I don't see a problem with the red matter created hole doing just that. A black hole can also "kill" you according to current theories, again no problem with the red matter created hole doing that. So yes there are at least two possibilities when interacting with a black hole: death or time travel. I guess the result would depend on the nature of the interaction.

Never claimed to be exempt.

Still, do you have a counter argument? Are you saying that such theories do not exist?

 

[Nerys Myk]

He says, from the highest or horses.

Its an opinion I formed based on observation. People like being "the smartest person in the room" and having knowledge that others seem to lack. Reboots tend to make that knowledge irrelevent.

Heaven forbid I get accused of making myself feel superior but Star Trek isn't a reboot, it's an alternate timeline.

Also the warp core makes the ship go to warp, it doesn't make ice-cream cones. Red matter on the other hand might do that if required by the story.

A rose by any other name....

It's a reboot. They're taking the concept back to square one by setting it in an alternate universe.

If they want a warp core powered ice cream machine in the plot then it will make ice cream. Heck, as far as I know the ice cream machine on the Enterprise is powered by the warp core.

 

[Shazam!]

M'Sharak[/B]]It's a matter of relative position: "we're traveling whole through a conduit triggered by the formation of a black hole made of this other matter" versus "whoops, we're imploding, because the black hole is being made of us!"

Each black hole is created by red matter. What you're suggesting is that the black hole is going "oh here's some spaceships, we'll send them back in time. And here's another spaceship, but it's kinda broken and it's the end of the movie so we'll blow that one up". Black holes are dicks.

Still, do you have a counter argument? Are you saying that such theories do not exist?

A counter-argument to what? That any possible black hole theory can happen in the film whenever it feels like and depending on what the story calls for at the time?

 

[Shazam!]

A rose by any other name....

It's a reboot. They're taking the concept back to square one by setting it in an alternate universe.

I know this is more a semantic argument than anything else, but this definition of reboot really does it for me:

Reboot (fiction), to discard all previous continuity in a fiction series and start anew

...which the new movie doesn't do.

So a rose by any other name is still a rose, but not if it isn't a rose to start with.

 

[Nerys Myk]

M'Sharak[/B]]It's a matter of relative position: "we're traveling whole through a conduit triggered by the formation of a black hole made of this other matter" versus "whoops, we're imploding, because the black hole is being made of us!"

Each black hole is created by red matter. What you're suggesting is that the black hole is going "oh here's some spaceships, we'll send them back in time. And here's another spaceship, but it's kinda broken and it's the end of the movie so we'll blow that one up". Black holes are dicks.

Still, do you have a counter argument? Are you saying that such theories do not exist?

A counter-argument to what? That any possible black hole theory can happen in the film whenever it feels like and depending on what the story calls for at the time?

They seemed to have a pretty specific black hole theory in mind.

 

[Shazam!]

Which one? Sending things back in time or blowing things up? Because they used both.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A rose by any other name....

It's a reboot. They're taking the concept back to square one by setting it in an alternate universe.

I know this is more a semantic argument than anything else, but this definition of reboot really does it for me:

Reboot (fiction), to discard all previous continuity in a fiction series and start anew

...which the new movie doesn't do.

So a rose by any other name is still a rose, but not if it isn't a rose to start with.

Thats a pretty rare form of reboot. When they rebooted Superman in the 1980s they kept some of the previous continuity and some were reintroduced as the post Crisis series progressed. Lately they've rebooted the reboot, but still use elements from he postCrisis take.

NuBSG also used elements from the previous incarnations.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Which one? Sending things back in time or blowing things up? Because they used both.

What did the black hole blow up? Vulcan became a black hole. I think the Narada did to.

 

[M'Sharak]

[Seriously, though, it's not the black hole deciding. In the case of the black hole which swallowed the Hobus star/superdupernova, the Narada and the Jellyfish were too close when the black hole was formed and were drawn into the associated wormhole, while at the end of the movie, the black hole was formed inside the Narada, using its and the Jellyfish's matter.] It's a matter of relative position: "we're traveling whole through a conduit triggered by the formation of a black hole made of this other matter" versus "whoops, we're imploding, because the black hole is being made of us!"

[Restoration of bracketed portion of quote is mine. - M']

Each black hole is created by red matter.

Triggered by it, at least; it seems to act as some sort of catalyst, but that's just a guess, based on nothing resembling rigorous scientific analysis.

What you're suggesting is that the black hole is going "oh here's some spaceships, we'll send them back in time. And here's another spaceship, but it's kinda broken and it's the end of the movie so we'll blow that one up".

No, I wasn't suggesting that at all, as you can plainly see.

Black holes are dicks.

This is still an amusing notion, though. Someone ought to do up a 'shopped graphic showing a black hole being a dick.

 

[JarodRussell]

And the black holes didn't even behave like black holes. Where was the time dilation, the red shift, the spaghettification?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Happened while they were in the black hole.

 

[JarodRussell]

There's no time dilation, red shift or spaghettification inside a black hole, it's a relative effect for outside viewers, such as... the audience. Or Kirk and Spock on the bridge, when Nero is like just a few metres away from the event horizon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Oh noes!!!!! The Trek is scientifically innaccurate!!!!!

 

[JarodRussell]

I thought you were the one who said they did have a specific scientific theory in mind.


And actually, all of that stuff would have made for much better visual effects sequences, and a much more awesome showdown.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes I am that guy. That they chose a different less accurate visual expression doesn't change that. It might have been more interesting to see the Narada get spahgettified, then again it might not.

My reaction was mostly based on your comment in the other thread about sticking with the bad science of the Slingshot Effect rather than embracing current theories, because its been done in Star Trek before.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Heck, as far as I know the ice cream machine on the Enterprise is powered by the warp core.

Well, canonically all we know (from "And the Children Shall Lead") is that ice cream flavours are selected via the colour of balsa wood chips you insert. If you put in two white ones you'll get a scoop of vanilla and a scoop of coconut.

Me? I'm going for the Chocolate Wobble.

 

[SilentP]

There's no time dilation, red shift or spaghettification inside a black hole, it's a relative effect for outside viewers, such as... the audience. Or Kirk and Spock on the bridge, when Nero is like just a few metres away from the event horizon.

I don't know about the other two, but there was time dilation for the Jellyfish when it was being piloted by PrimeSpock. The Narada goes in and then a few seconds (from Spock's perspctive) the Jellyfish goes in. However, in those 'few seconds', 25 years has past for the Narada after it got spat out the other side.

The only thing I can think of for the other two is that the distance that these black holes are observed, these effects aren't being observed far away enough to observe.

 

[cooleddie74]

Its possible the supernova shockwave material was deposited somewhere else, in another area and time of the 23rd century where Spock and Nero weren't looking or aware. Plus, we forget that Nero and Spock might have been pulled in after the last remnants of the shockwave were already sucked up and so there'd be nothing else to deposit.