Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by The Nth Doctor, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. Red Shirt

    Red Shirt Captain Captain

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    I'm immensely curious and excited as to how the last two episodes will play out. Been a heck of a ride.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  2. Xerxes82

    Xerxes82 Captain Captain

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    I think you've summed up part of the issue Dany is having. She's a divine right monarch. She literally believes she is the Chosen One, meant to rule. Anything can be justified so long as it puts her in the position she deserves.

    TL, DR, Dany is approaching Westeros differently than Essos, and our perspective on the characters is also different. So we see her actions differently in the two settings even though she has been largely consistent.

    It's interesting to see people's reactions to these latest developments, because of the contrast between Essos-Dany and Westeros-Dany. In Essos, she genuinely tried to build bridges and cross cultural chasms where she could. She made compromises that she knew she would struggle with (the fighting pits), she tried to reach out to local leadership for support and make connections (both in Qarth and Mereen). But there was always a line for her patience, and once it was crossed death was the price.

    In Westeros there is very little of this. And a lot more of "Bend the knee, or die!" She has earned the fealty of everybody who follows her, but suddenly she seems to have forgotten that. Because this throne is hers by right, she has no time or interest in earning anybody's respect. They should follow and worship her merely because she is their queen. Not because they've seen her and embraced her as their Queen. Her patience has slipped to zero.

    She demanded respect as a Khaleesi, then as a Queen, but quickly learned that her achievements spoke louder than any title. In Qarth she rode her reputation, and only her dragons got her in the door. By Slaver's Bay she was ready to act first, taking the full brunt of the Masters' derision and waiting for her moment to show them who and what she really was. She knew that her reputation worked in her favor, with little to her name. And she was brutal. Crucifixion, burning. Yes, she was doing it to slavers. "Foreigners", whose culture wasn't explicitly Western (in the real world sense). And we were all surprisingly ok with that. But, more importantly, they were characters and peoples we only ever saw from Dany's perspective. As her foes, and her frustrations. They were the bad guys because they stood against her, and we knew her to have a sense of justice and compassion.

    We didn't see any complexity to the people she was conquering, not the way we have in the Lannisters, or in the Hound. We know they're awful people, but not always and exclusively awful people. And we kind of understand why they are awful, when they are. As Tyrion pointed out just this week, even Cersei, who is as monstrous as any character in the show, genuinely loved her children. Jaime is a fool in love. Tyrion killed Shae, for reasons that can be debated, and straight up murdered his father just because he could. He didn't need to kill Tywin to escape. He was just as free if his father lived. But he was angry (about a variety of topics) and had opportunity. Tyrion Lannister is a murderer. But he's also clever, and likeable. And we understand why he wanted his father dead.

    Now all of a sudden we have shades of gray everywhere. Who is good, and who is bad, if everyone is both? The answer is Jon is good. Everybody else is something else. Doesn't mean evil, but Dany is no longer explicitly good. She has, by virtue of context and contrast, slipped to relatable. Amidst a sea of other relatable characters whom don't all share her views or thoughts on her being in charge.

    I also think (and I'm guilty of this as well) that it's premature to use the Mad Queen label. Again, we're judging against context. Varys is worried about Dany's mental state. Perhaps we in the audience are as well. But that's because of her father, and his behavior. Her actions so far have remained distressingly coherent and consistent with her previous ones, leaving aside the already noted different approach to divine right queenship. It isn't that she's changed, lost her wits and descended into madness. It's that in a Westerosi context, what passed for justice in Essos now looks mad. We understand everybody, but nobody understands each other, if you see my meaning.
     
  3. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Diplomat Daeny

    I think the issue is a bit more complicated than that. Daenerys actually did come to Westeros on a strong bridge-building, forgiveness-based system. Maybe because it was terrible, everyone has seemingly forgotten the last season.

    * Olenna
    * Yara
    * The Sand Snakes
    * Tyrion of Casterly Rock

    That's the Lordship of Four of the Seven Kingdoms right there (presuming Daeny pardons Tyrion and makes him heir to the Westlands).

    Daenerys biggest problem isn't that she came to Westeros as a bloodthirsty conqueror, it's the fact that all of her allies have DIED or abandoned her (at least in a very gracious way). She burned Randall Tarly but the problem there was she did it because he refused to bend the knee and not because he betrayed his liege lord for a False Queen. Even then, she had a big and healthy coalition going on that represented most of Westeros.

    The problem is that Daenerys is trying to build bridges with the North and it's failing miserably. One kingdom that has its own King now and a nationalist desire to be free. It's also not even that bad of a situation because she DOES have its loyalty in Jon.
     
  4. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I saw the ones you posted. Honestly I didn't realize they were leaked spoilers, I thought they were just your own predictions. Assuming that is how it ends I will be OK with it, but I am not any kind of a shipper :)

    But I wouldn't assume they are all accurate. Supposedly they shot different endings to confuse even the actors. And leaking false spoilers has been done before, and for sure something they would try with GoT.
     
  5. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

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  6. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They're signalling Dany loud and clear now, so that can't be it. I think it's going to have to do with Tyrion.
     
  7. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    Maybe the third ‘holy shit’ moment was Arya taking out the Night King?
     
  8. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No. That was D&D's idea, it didn't come from GRRM.
     
  9. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree with about 95% of your post.

    In season one, once Dany is sold to Drogo by Viserys and has been repetitively raped by Drogo, she gets advice from one of her handmaidens on how to actually seduce him. She does this effectively, and I don't blame her. But what happens next, and what part did she play in it?

    Viserys dies horribly having his head cast in molten gold. Deserved, sure, but this sets the precedent, no? No death is too horrible for those who deserve to die.

    At the time, and still, I felt that Dany had manipulated Drogo to her side against Viserys. She didn't even flinch as Viserys died. She was now the one in control.

    She's made naive mistakes which I don't necessarily blame her for, but she's reacted to those mistakes with wanton violence and torture.

    I've seen her as treading this tight-rope since the first season, and haven't seen anything to change my mind. A downfall caused by megalomania was never guaranteed, but I always felt it was a possibility. Certainly I never felt she made the right decision about anything, but that's par for the course in this show.

    If the show ends with Dany as the Mad Queen, I won't be surprised, even though I was never certain of it.

    Since I'm harking back to Season 1, I'll mention that Jorah had specificly warned her that she did not have any support at all from the people of Westeros, no matter what armies she could gather. That has never changed.
     
  10. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think she's played The Game nearly as well as she could have. As Tyrion said, she's in the game now. But since she entered into it, treating The Seven Kingdoms as hers by default, The Game has worn her down big time. Taking the same attitude and approach as she did in Essos has not helped her position in Westeros and she's underestimated her enemies - especially Cersei, who, unlike others, took the time to develop countermeasures to her dragon advantage.
     
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  11. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I say this as a Southerner born and bred and somebody who had at least one ancestor die fighting for the South in the war: the Confederacy sucked and deserved to lose. Lincoln saved this country.
     
  12. Red Shirt

    Red Shirt Captain Captain

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    I agree. I think Danny made huge mistake ...
    BBQ-ing the Tarlys. Especially after she made a speech about not being a bloodthirsty murderous invader.
     
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  13. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, it didn't help. It was a hard line decision. Did she think to consider she's in a new land? No. In her mind it was hers before she got there. She hasn't really tried to win anyone over. I am here now. I AM the queen. I'm better than Cersei. So, bend the knee. Those who have pledged have done so for her resources, not because they were whispering secret toasts...

    That's not playing The Game as someone like Tywin would. That's years of having a very real, powerful advantage (see: dragons) at your beck and call and not having needed to fall back on the subtleties of diplomacy.

    Anyway, does anyone in The Seven Kingdoms care about her birthright as much as she does? Her family has left a bad taste in the mouth of Westeros. Add to the fact Jon actually has the better claim. Varys was right on the money; a half-Stark, half-Targaryen with the rightful claim - temperate and measured. Who, additionally, has proven himself time and again to represent the best interests of ... life.

    Not that anyone knows about him yet, mind you. But if our silly Jon pressed his claim it'd be a slam dunk with pretty much everyone.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  14. Red Shirt

    Red Shirt Captain Captain

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    Again I agree. Sitting down with your opponents reasoning through why you don't have to be enemies can go a long way and it demonstrates mature moral leadership which no doubt the 7 Kingdoms needs.
     
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  15. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I come to this board because I expect people to follow the rules. I actively avoid spoilers and leaks until after I've seen an episode---you're blatantly ignoring the board rules for god knows what reason---even my 12 year old twins knew enough not to spoil Endgame for me with rumors they heard at school. TWELVE!
     
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  16. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    Sometimes I think the show is now slightly hinting Daenerys might end up a tragic figure. I think it's more about desperation and anger than a mental condition. Either she wins throne by losing her soul, or she dies losing her soul trying to get the throne.

    She's invested so much in her destiny to rule it's almost taken a life of it's own. That's where it gets dangerous if these slight hints are anything.

    If this secret is enough for her to get desperate and to not want it spread--and she knows that Sam, Tyrion Varys, Sansa and Arya knows--you get the idea.

    It used to be about her simply being able to go home, now it's about her destiny to rule the seven kingdoms. Sansa even said she noticed Tyrion was afraid of her. Bad sign.

    But still, she would have to conquer with an army because her Targaryen blood makes her a target the moment she steps foot on land. She would never be safe. And Olenna told her no one would ever obey her unless they feared her.

    That's thing with this show and its world; the more you go back and re watch certain episodes, the more you reconsider things. Everything is too convoluted to be simple.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  17. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think you may have a point here. The final could very well deal with Dany's internal conflict. An interpretation of a bittersweet ending could very well be Dany sacrificing something important to her (the throne/her life) for something greater. Although even writing that, it seems like that would be a traditional ending that this series has worked hard to avoid.
     
  18. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    I agree.

    I think we would all like to see something shocking in the finale.

    If Cersei does win everything, it would be shocking, some fans may cheer, but it'll leave a BAD taste in everyone's mouth. Like The Red Wedding, lol. She's just too evil now. Euron's too slimy.

    But if Danaerys simply wins throne, that's going to be considered boring. Between Tyrion, Sansa, Varys Jaime and few others, something is going to happen I think.

    Emily hinted at something about Daenerys, we just don't know what.
     
  19. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the biggest thing that Daeny has run into in Westeros is the intermingling of ties that isn't a case in Westeros. In Essos, blood ties are a thing but not the basis of culture and relationships. In Westeros, she fries the Tarlys because Randall deserved to die. He was a usurper, traitor, and unrepentant enemy of hers.

    However, then his son insisted on joining him and then this caused serious strains on her ally due to him being a relative of the Tarlys.

    The web is a lot more complicated.
     
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  20. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was Mr. Awe who claimed Daenerys was "a typical monarch" when on screen Daenerys freed the slaves. If Abraham Lincoln was just a typical president, then the death toll and the executive powers under Lincoln have no excuse, Hence my question for Mr. Awe.There is no excuse for Locutus of Bored to ignore the context of Mr. Awe's stupid comment and the very next sentence after my rhetorical question. There is no excuse for Locutus of Bored to feign ignorance of the rhetorical question. Again, it is Mr. Awe who shares exactly the same kind of "thinking' as Lost Cause states' rights people. That is exactly what I accused him of (too politely it seems.) We need not ask why Locutus of Bored leaped to the defense.

    As to be expected after Locutus of Bored' intervened in favor of the people who hate Daenerys for her wickedness (i.e., freeing slaves,) encouraging the Lost Cause states' rights cothinkers, Professor Zoom writes "She’s been doing terrible things in the name of 'good' for seasons..." Like Locutus of Bored, Professor Zoom knows how to put on a good face, but the scare quotes show us how much his opinion is worth. And after Locutus of Bored's encouragement, crookeddy further announces to us how slavery was going to be reformed out of existence.

    The producers, the guys who actually wanted to make a CSA series, have always thought Daenerys freeing the slaves was horrible, that she was a tyrant committing atrocities, that not having a nice safe plan to preserve the owners was monstrous evil. This is Lost Cause states' rights moral values applied to a fantasy with dragons. And it is Mr. Awe, Professor Zoom, crookeddy and Locutus of Bored following the producers right down the line.