Game of Thrones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on HBO

[Reliant Robin]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Pretty certain if you were that girl in both situations you would notice a distinguishable difference. I'm not trying to argue any kind of legal issue here, the point is there is a considerable emotional difference between fear and violence on one hand and relaxed acquiescence on the other. You don't have to come from a particular cultural or legal background to be able to recognise that these are different emotional scenarios.

You're still applying your sense of morality and ethics and law to the circumstances. What I'm saying is that both scenarios are immoral. Are you really advocating that it's okay to have consentual sex with a minor? If so, good luck with the authorities ... and with the "court of public opinion."

Honestly, I think you're the one who's applying your sense of morality and ethics here. Whether or not Dany is a minor in that scene *is* an issue of modern, legal, cultural perceptions, which is why I'm not addressing it. Whether or not Dany is frightened and upset in that scene has nothing to do with modern legality, it's about the human emotions she's feeling, which might lead the audience to respond differently to that scene than they might have responded to the original, which shows her experiencing a different set of human emotions. I'm completely down if you want to argue it's skeevy either way, because frankly it is, but it's not a modern ethical judgement to notice a difference between someone crying and saying no and someone relaxing and saying yes. They're different scenarios in anyone's culture.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Honestly, I think you're the one who's applying your sense of morality and ethics here. Whether or not Dany is a minor in that scene *is* an issue of modern, legal, cultural perceptions, which is why I'm not addressing it. Whether or not Dany is frightened and upset in that scene has nothing to do with modern legality, it's about the human emotions she's feeling, which might lead the audience to respond differently to that scene than they might have responded to the original, which shows her experiencing a different set of human emotions.

You are the one who's differentiating between forcible rape and statutory rape -- saying that one is preferable to the other. That is the very definition of "applying a sense of morality and ethics." I'm saying, at least in terms of modern Western law and ethics, that both are rape, both are problematic and both can lead to emotional trauma. To say otherwise is to be either to be either ignorant or naive about current standards.

And again, such differentiation is completely irrelevant as far as the portrayal of the scenes is concerned. In both cases Drogo is committing an act that is potentially objectionable. By current standards, both acts are rape. But by Drogo's standards neither act is one of rape. To him, either having consensual sex with a minor or having non consensual sex with an adult are both perfectly normal. Therefore the scene in the show is at least as problematic as the one in the book, at least by today's standards. So what really matters is how the book and the show handle the consequences of his actions. Apparently the book shows a redemption of his character. Will the show do the same? It's still possible. Or do you really mean to say that the potential psychological and emotional trauma that sex with a minor can create is so easily dismissed?

 

[Reliant Robin]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Honestly, I think you're the one who's applying your sense of morality and ethics here. Whether or not Dany is a minor in that scene *is* an issue of modern, legal, cultural perceptions, which is why I'm not addressing it. Whether or not Dany is frightened and upset in that scene has nothing to do with modern legality, it's about the human emotions she's feeling, which might lead the audience to respond differently to that scene than they might have responded to the original, which shows her experiencing a different set of human emotions.

You are the one who's differentiating between forcible rape and statutory rape -- saying that one is preferable to the other. That is the very definition of "applying a sense of morality and ethics." I'm saying, at least in terms of modern Western law and ethics, that both are rape, both are problematic and both can lead to emotional trauma. To say otherwise is to be either to be either ignorant or naive about current standards.

I'm not arguing for a real life preference here, for crying out loud. We're talking about fictional characters' emotional responses - fictional characters who exist in a world where your modern concept of statutory rape has no meaning, which is why I don't understand why you keep insisting it's relevant while simultaneously accusing me of being unable to overlook cultural variables.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

We're talking about fictional characters' emotional responses - fictional characters who exist in a world where your modern concept of statutory rape has no meaning, which is why I don't understand why you keep insisting it's relevant while simultaneously accusing me of being unable to overlook cultural variables.

Yes ... and we're talking about fictional characters (Drogo) who exist in a world (as portrayed within the show) where your modern concept of apparently forcible rape on a wedding night has no meaning, either. It's only relevant because you keep insisting that there is a "major difference" between statutory rape and forcible rape. You are the one applying your personal, modern morality and legality to the show while at the same time neglecting to apply similar standards to the book. You can't have it both ways. Unless you are saying, somehow, that statutory rape is less objectionable to forcible rape?

The major difference in the book is that Daenerys consented. That is actually quite a major difference.

Such a statement is entirely based on morality and legality -- on what you personally think is right or wrong. Because let's face it, there have been societies in this world where both statutory rape and forcible rape have been acceptable. And if Drogo's culture is portrayed as one of those societies, any condemnation of those actions is based on current, modern morality and law.

The portrayal of Drogo, within in the show, is entirely consistent with the portrayal of his culture. In other words, he never considers his act to be evil, immoral, wrong, or otherwise an issue. And yet, you take issue with his behavior in the show. Why? Because you think his act of rape within the show is, somehow, less redeemable than his act of rape within the book? Why not just admit that both acts are problematic based on our modern worldview? That his character is in need of some kind of redemption -- at least within our eyes, the eyes of the viewer/reader? That it's not particularly relevant that his act is statutory rape or forcible rape ... because they are both rape? Or, again, are you applying your values in such a way that accepts statutory rape as more palatable than forcible rape?

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is this: You seem willing to accept Drogo's behavior in the book, because his actions, immoral and illegal as they are in our society, are consistent with the portrayal of his culture. And yet you're unable to accept his behavior in the show ... because his actions, despite being consistent with his culture, are immoral and illegal in our society. It's a contradictory standpoint.

 

[Reliant Robin]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

You're mistaking my issue for a moral objection to Drogo's behaviour. I'm not trying to make a case for the prosecution here. That's not what this is about - what I'm questioning is the artistic decision to change the scene, and how this change will impact on audience reception and character development. How Drogo's actions stand up to modern legality is just not the issue - the scene is distressing because Dany is clearly distressed, not because of abstract non-applicable-because-fictional legal concepts. Regardless of their cultural backgrounds, Dany is capable of being upset and scared and Drogo is capable of recognising that and choosing how he responds to it. That's universal and relevant to the character's emotional development in-universe - while the American age of consent is not.

I'm quite ready to accept the scene has consent issues and is problematic either way (and I have said so several times) - what I'm not prepared to accept is that framing the scene as more violent, more emotionally distressing, and more obviously non-consensual than it was in the book doesn't make any difference to how it is then received.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Yay, I was finally able to see it! (Got HBO hooked up today just for this)

My grade is Excellent... Great acting, and above all great production values. The show really looks like a big budget feature film. All the small details just work.

As far as the rape scene - Well after hearing so much about it I was surprised by how mild it was compared to what I was expecting. And there certainly were some tender touches before the 'consumation' - I think it will serve the character arcs of both characters quite well even if it may not match the book exactly.

I'm so glad this has already been renewed.

 

[Venardhi]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

If that is your definition of tender, you should revisit it.

The argument that forced rape is the same morally as statutory rape is ridiculous. Statutory rape is wholly a creation of law, and while you can argue compellingly that it can do long-term and even short-term psychological damage for a young girl/woman (our current definition of young) to have any sort of sexual relationship, you simply cannot argue that it is as damaging as straight-up traumatic forced sex. Even in western civilization the line for statutory rape varies by several years, at what age do you think it is morally equivalent to violent rape?

In any case, the point isn't what kind of situation is worse from a moral standpoint, but what would be worse in the eyes of the girl experiencing it. Dany is clearly coerced in both cases, but the difference is that Drogo understands that she is terrified and uncomfortable and he meets her halfway rather than just pouncing as might be expected in his own culture(which we never really see much of, so that is just conjecture). Once he is alone with her he lets down his Khal mask a bit so she can see him as something other than a warlord. Later on he falls into a pattern of simply coming in, fucking her and leaving but even in that context Dany's complaints are about the pain (having only recently been introduced to a life of riding all day ever day). The first night doesn't make these later nights okay, but that first night does give us a hint that he can be gentle, that he can be patient and he can respect her.

We see none of that here, and that is the difference. His character is portrayed much more cartoonishly barbaric and completely oblivious/uncaring as to her needs/desires as a fellow human being and as his new wife. . . and that is regrettable.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

...rather than just pouncing as might be expected in his own culture(which we never really see much of, so that is just conjecture).

Well, except for that whole scene only moments earlier where "raping" a dancer was simply a matter of whoever wanted to do it and had the strength to see it happen. Of course it also resulted in straight-up murder simply for the sake of fun which was also perfectly acceptable but... hey, we'll ignore that stuff, too.

 

[Venardhi]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

We aren't ignoring it unless you refuse to allow context to color individual events.

The men and women in question as far as we can see are doing what they do freely and enjoying themselves. We don't know the context of the accepted norms of these situations but it makes a big difference if those women are forced to be there or not. The men may have been engaging in the equivalent of a duel, with the gauntlet in their culture being the claiming of a woman and waiting for the other to pick it up by trying to take her from him. Do I think this is morally okay? No, but if all three of them do then the context is that no one is doing anything against their will which I see as the basis of morality.

Dany is not a part of that cultural understanding and Drogo knows it. Either he can treat her like a possession as we see in the show during their wedding night, or he can treat her like a human being as was the case in that same part of the book. Only one of these engenders trust and affection as a rule.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

You're mistaking my issue for a moral objection to Drogo's behaviour ... framing the scene as more violent, more emotionally distressing, and more obviously non-consensual than it was in the book doesn't make any difference to how it is then received.

If you do not want to be characterized as making a moral objection (or judgment) then you need to stop presuming that consensual statutory rape cannot possibly be as violent and emotionally distressing as forcible rape -- that audiences will, necessarily, be better able to accept someone who commits statutory rape vs. someone who commits forcible rape (on his wedding night). What you are doing, in effect, is stating that one act is more palatable to the other. That is most certainly a moral objection on your part. Which is fine by me. Feel free to use your moral judgment that statutory rape is preferable to forcible rape to evaluate the scene. Just be willing to admit that is what you are doing and don't be surprised when someone calls you on it.

In any case, the point isn't what kind of situation is worse from a moral standpoint, but what would be worse in the eyes of the girl experiencing it.

How can you presume to know, with certainty, what is worse for someone? It is altogether possible that, ultimately, consensual statutory rape could be worse than forcible rape. And isn't "what would be worse in the eyes of the girl" up to the victim? Or, in this case, how the author portrays the consequences of the act in question? Apparently in the book, the underage girl overcomes the experience and becomes stronger for it. Why not wait and see how the of-age young woman handles the trauma in the next episodes before making wild accusations that one scene is, categorically, worse than the other?

The point is: both scenes are objectionable to modern standards and both must be viewed through the lens of how Drogo's culture is portrayed. Saying Drogo "treated her like a possession" is applying an outside value and standard to the situation. In that scene, according to what we've seen in the show thus far, Drogo appears to be acting as his culture would expect him to be acting at that very moment. In his mind, there's no malice, evil, or otherwise objectionable motivations. It's simply the way things are. So he has sex with her. Is that worse than convincing an underage girl to have sex? We can only answer that question by applying our own moral and legal standards ... unless we use what the stories tell us (context) about how the characters are affected by the act. So let's see how the consequences of the show play out before assuming that the results were, necessarily, worse than the book.

His character is portrayed much more cartoonishly barbaric

That's a more valid objection to the scene, IMO. I can understand a criticism that says the books are more nuanced and realistic than the show. Which is understandable because the show isn't afforded the necessary leisure to flesh out the finer points of what is transpiring on screen. And let's face it, the whole show is fairly cartoonish with respect to how it handles sex and violence (as evidenced by the wedding scene). But this also means that Drogo's wedding night actions are entirely consistent within the context of the series.

 

[superdeluxe]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Fairly good so far. Probably my two biggest complaints so far are with the music (frankly kind of "meh", even the main theme) and the pacing. Really sort of felt like they rushed through things just so they could end on the "The things I do for love" cliffhanger. I hope they take a step back and slow things down a little after this.

That is interesting..because people complained that there was way too many expositions going on...and things were going too slow..interesting takes that some people say it went to fast..and some people say it went to slow.

 

[Kegg]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

His character is portrayed much more cartoonishly barbaric

That's a more valid objection to the scene, IMO. I can understand a criticism that says the books are more nuanced and realistic than the show. Which is understandable because the show isn't afforded the necessary leisure to flesh out the finer points of what is transpiring on screen. And let's face it, the whole show is fairly cartoonish with respect to how it handles sex and violence (as evidenced by the wedding scene).

The sex and violence of the wedding scene was pretty faithful to the book, in fairness.

 

[superdeluxe]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

However, those "God tier" two are way beyond GoT's reach, I believe.

We have seen one episode, and by all accounts, this series through the first 6 episodes gets much better.

Is it just me, or is premiering a show tag-lined "Winter is coming" in the middle of spring kinda stupid?

It snowed in the eastern part of our state this morning..and we are almost in May WInter still might be coming

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

If that is your definition of tender, you should revisit it.

Oh boy, thanks for completely missing what I was saying. But then again you didn't even QUOTE me... So let my quote myself:

"As far as the rape scene - Well after hearing so much about it I was surprised by how mild it was compared to what I was expecting. And there certainly were some tender touches before the 'consumation'"

Do you see the context now??? Overall he was not tender, but I would say that he was being quite gentle for a Dothraki. Wasn't drying her tears wasn't a "tender touch", for example?

But this argument is getting WAAAY old. So it didn't happen exactly like the book. Just deal with it already.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

It wasn't even a rape scene. At all. She was scared and embarrassed, not resisting. She knew this was a part of the marriage ceremony, which she had already consented to. But being a virgin and dealing with a brutish barbarian in her eyes, it was a terrifying prospect... but that's about all it was. And he even tried his best, within the confines of his culture, to make it as gentle as he could for her. We already saw that actual, bonified rape and murder were cultural norms for him, but he didn't indulge in either of those activies with her. He was simply consumating his marriage with a reluctant and scared but non-resisting bride.

The fact that some people in this thread can't tell the difference suggests that they're the ones with issues that need to be worked out, not the rest of the world.

 

[Reliant Robin]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Checkmate, I'm sorry, but she really did not consent to be married, she plainly had no choice in the matter, and explicitly said to Viserys that she didn't want to.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Reluctance != resistance.

 

[Reliant Robin]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

She did not consent to marry him or to have sex with him. She did not want to. Whether she physically fought him during the act or not - which would have been pretty futile given her extreme powerlessness - is not the deciding factor.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Oh, fine. Then I guess when you have to go get your prostate examined, you're being raped, too. You don't want to be there. You're quite reluctant to even think about it. But yet you go because you "have" to. Ergo, horrible, horrible raping in progress, OMG! Ditto for trips to the dentist, dealing with the in-laws, and eating that nasty ass seaweed crap your girlfriend is forcing you to try. All rape! You don't want to do it, you're not consenting so much as being forced into it. Thus it's all rape. Amirite or amirite?



She was scared and relucant. She wasn't being raped, especially by the standards set in that setting of that fictional universe. As others have said: Get over it. You're wrong.

The fact that some people in this thread can't tell the difference suggests that they're the ones with issues that need to be worked out, not the rest of the world.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Guys, just stop arguing with Reliant Robin. It is a futile exercise. It's just like trying to have an e-mail correspondence with someone who just uses auto-reply. Just as pointless. He is not listening.