Galaxy Class starship vs. 5 Cardassian Warships,,,,,,,,

[MyCylon]

Timo said:
It's a classic British term dating from both World Wars, too. Since the submarine was an archetypally German weapon in WWI, the German name for it caught on in Britain and the English-speaking world.

I was wondering if that's what happened. I always find it fascinating to see which German words get used in English. There is a fair number, mind you, though unfortunately a fair amount of those is related to WWII and death and destruction (e.g. Blitzkrieg). Fortunately, there's also more harmless things such as Kindergarten or Glockenspiel

Timo said:
Similarly, for some undecipherable reason, (German) torpedo boats are commonly known as E-boats after the British term they claim to have adopted from the Germans, even though the Germans themselves considered them "S-Boot", or "Schnellboot", "fast boat".

Interesting. Maybe it's due to some kind of misunderstanding. I'm not quite sure how you'd mix up "E" and "S" but these things happen, I suppose

 

[Timo]

Some sources say E-Boat simply meant "enemy boat", while others credit the E to something bizarre like "explosive" or "excursion". Probably the British just hadn't heard "S-Boot" in the news quite as often as they heard "U-Boot", so they came up with something on their own and then forgot it was indigenous rather than borrowed.

Or, rather, only the people making WWII comics forgot the origins. And their grasp of German beyond "Achtung, du Schweinhund, es ist die Engländer! Schiess! Schiess! Scheisse!" is less than firm... But their influence on popular knowledge of WWII and German is not be belittled.

Certainly the scene with the tiny Jem'Hadar attack bugs pounding on the stately Odyssey is a powerful one. And in the gracefulness of the moves, it does seem to imitate a torpedo boat attack, rather than a perhaps more typical fighter planes vs. ship battle.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[broberfett]

Germans have been hanging around America for a long time. That's where those great rifles came from that Revolutionary War snipers used on the British. German gun smiths developed them. Cincinnati is also a big German town. English itself is a Germanic language, but it has borrowed from many other places too, such as French after the Norman invasion.

 

[broberfett]

Justtoyourleft said:
^
I know what it stands for since I am German I just hadn't heard the term "U-Boat" in English before.

Since you are German and we are discussing military stuff, how big is the German Army these days? Is it mostly a small reaction force or is it pretty big? How many US bases are still there?

What I said in the above post was before I knew you were German. I'm sure you know all that stuff already.

 

[MyCylon]

^
I guessed you didn't know but I did have to smile

I did a quick check on the exact numbers of the "Bundeswehr":

- Just under 250.000 all in all
- Roughly 100.000 in the army
- About 45.000 in the airforce
- Just under 19.000 in the navy
- The rest is medical and administrative as well as other staff
- Just under 37.000 personnel are conscript soldiers

Within the different parts of the Bundeswehr, you've got large units (particularly in the army) as well as smaller, specialized units such as the so-called "Kommando Spezialkräfte" (comparable supposedly to the British SAS or the US SOF).

The Bundeswehr has changed A LOT over the last two decades or so. Its sole purpose used to be the defense of Germany's territory but it's really becoming a force that operates worldwide much like other European forces.
This tendency became apparant with Kosovo in 1999 and continues through today's mission in Afghanistan. Before Kosovo, the Bundeswehr would only support other NATO forces but not be involved in battle. That has changed.
As an aside, even though the German government decided not to participate in the invasion of Iraq, the Bundeswehr did and does provide support.
I think what's going to happen sometime in the future is that Germany will get rid of military service and focus on a smaller, more specialized army made up of regular soldiers only. Granted, this is something that has been discussed on and off for years but with other NATO states demanding Germany to step up further to the challenges NATO faces around the world, I really don't see much of an option. Budget is another topic here.

I don't know how many US bases are left in Germany but the number of soldiers has been rapidly declining. I'm not sure how accurate these figures are but according to Wikipedia US forces in Germany have gone down from over 300.000 to roughly 70.000 soldiers.
There's a US forces radio channel for here (I live near Frankfurt) that I sometimes listen to (good music and it's just such a different world!). It's called "AFN Hessen - The Eagle". I remember them mentioning facilities closing down though I can't put a figure on it. Just something I noticed.

 

[USS KG5]

Justtoyourleft said:
I was wondering if that's what happened. I always find it fascinating to see which German words get used in English. There is a fair number, mind you, though unfortunately a fair amount of those is related to WWII and death and destruction (e.g. Blitzkrieg). Fortunately, there's also more harmless things such as Kindergarten or Glockenspiel

As others have pointed out it is a term from British use, where we still have a cultural obsession with WW2 that the Germans I believe find irritating and I have to admit I share. Interestingly examples of big ships that went down to "U-Boat" attacks are: -

HMS Royal Oak - torpedoed at anchor by U-47 early in the war.
HMS Barham - sunk by three torpedoes from U-331.
HMS Ark Royal - sunk by U-81 in 1941.

Which brings us back more to the thread topic. On paper a lot of Trekverse ships are no match for a Galaxy class, including three Jem H'Adar fighters and three BofPs, or probably two or three Galors (I think five would probably be a stretch in any case).

However - given a tactically superior position, a technical advantage, good leadership or simply luck any of them could take a Galaxy down. It is merely a matter of the ebb and flow of battle, which as we all know leads to some very strange outcomes.

Timo said:
Similarly, for some undecipherable reason, (German) torpedo boats are commonly known as E-boats after the British term they claim to have adopted from the Germans, even though the Germans themselves considered them "S-Boot", or "Schnellboot", "fast boat".

This comes from during the war I believe, I am sure I have seen them referred to as such in literature of the period, as you say to the Germans it was "S". It is probably a mis-translation somewhere along the way.

 

[captcalhoun]

oh, yes, the great German assistance in ISAF, where the helicopter pilots knock off at 4 o'clock because they won't fly at night cuz it's too dangerous.

excuse me for being disticntly underwhelmed when the Brits are fighting and dying 24/7 in Helmand with only the Americans to help them and all the other allies won't commit a single combat trooper to what is the most intense warfare the British Army has engaged in since Korea.

all the boys in Afghanistan, I salute you.
[/endrant]

 

[MyCylon]

^
The British are in the more dangerous part of Afghanistan but - with all due respect - German troops are dying as well. It's not like they're on vacation.
I'd also like to point out that I think the British as well as the US troops have substantially more experience in situations like this and I imagine they're also better equipped on average. Budget is an issue for the Bundeswehr.

It's kind of curious: I think Germans are still very aware of WWII when it comes to German soldiers fighting on foreign territory. It still takes getting used to. I think at least in respect to missions such as this most of the other countries are less pre-occupied with the past.

 

[USS KG5]

captcalhoun said:
oh, yes, the great German assistance in ISAF, where the helicopter pilots knock off at 4 o'clock because they won't fly at night cuz it's too dangerous.

Do you know that they have the training and equipment to fly effectively and safely at night? Flying at night is extremely difficult. Even for private pilots the night qualifications are very difficult compared to daylight ones.

excuse me for being disticntly underwhelmed when the Brits are fighting and dying 24/7 in Helmand with only the Americans to help them and all the other allies won't commit a single combat trooper to what is the most intense warfare the British Army has engaged in since Korea.

Well would we want them there? Not many armies are as well equipped for fighting that kind of war as the British Army. Ironically for someone who is clearly and agreeably a supporter of our forces overseas you underestimate our own troops.

The German forces are not as well equipped as ours, neither are most other European armies except possibly the French, and they were not exactly supporters of our interventions recently. Most other forces are too small or too busy.

all the boys in Afghanistan, I salute you.
[/endrant]

Cannot argue with you there.

 

[broberfett]

I did see some very impressive German Artillery on Future Weapons. It was some sort of auto loading deal that would fire and drop a bunch of shells on the target all at once from the same vehicle. They must have some budget because it was very impressive.

I would like to know how that Dominion Warship, the really huge one from that DS9 episode with Red Squad, would do against a Galaxy.

 

[USS KG5]

broberfett said:
I did see some very impressive German Artillery on Future Weapons. It was some sort of auto loading deal that would fire and drop a bunch of shells on the target all at once from the same vehicle. They must have some budget because it was very impressive.

Hey I drive a VW, I love German technology!

I would like to know how that Dominion Warship, the really huge one from that DS9 episode with Red Squad, would do against a Galaxy.

The Galaxy would run away like Red Squad should have done.

The Klingons have the right idea in WYLB, we see one of these being taken on by several attack cruisers if I recall correctly...

 

[broberfett]

USS KG5 said:

broberfett said:
I did see some very impressive German Artillery on Future Weapons. It was some sort of auto loading deal that would fire and drop a bunch of shells on the target all at once from the same vehicle. They must have some budget because it was very impressive.

Hey I drive a VW, I love German technology!

I would like to know how that Dominion Warship, the really huge one from that DS9 episode with Red Squad, would do against a Galaxy.

The Galaxy would run away like Red Squad should have done.

The Klingons have the right idea in WYLB, we see one of these being taken on by several attack cruisers if I recall correctly...

As far as German technology, I'm immediately reminded of the Pinto scene from the movie Top Secret.

 

[Nerroth]

On reflection, one thing which seemed like a pretty dangerous risk with Keogh ordering the shield drop was the risk that, since Odyssey had been reduced to a skeleton crew (with most of them offloaded onto DS9 before crossing into the GQ) that the Dominion ships could have beamed over waves of Jem'hadar soldiers to kill those Starfleet officers and crew still on board.

Indeed, were it not for the intent on the part of the Jem'hadar to go for that suicide run anyway, it would have been quite possible for them to beam onto critical parts of the ship and kill as many crewmembers as they could - and in such a situation, with battle-hardened Jem'hadar fighting Starfleet officers unaccustomed to facing them, it could have been quite a mess.

Hell, if the Jem'hadar had played their cards right, they could have bagged Odyssey altogether and hauled it off to the nearest fleet yard.

A good way to pilfer through the goodies aboard ship, while showing up the Feds in the process.

 

[USS KG5]

^^^^

Keogh would have blown his ship up rather than let it be taken by an unknown force.

As it was the Jem H'Adar wanted to show they could easily beat the Federation's best (and the producers wanted this as well) so having failed to destroy the Odyssey in a straight fight they used the suicide attack.

As for how many crew were aboard the Odyssey, they offloaded all non-essential personnel, rather than leaving her with a skeleton crew. All security personnel would still have been on board, and there were probably at least 700-odd crew. The Jem H'Adar would have been looking at odds of 10-1 for any boarding party.

 

[Nerroth]

Keogh wouldn't have been able to do a lot if the Jem'hadar had sent boarding parties onto the bridge and into main engineering, and gunned him and his entire senior staff down in one fell swoop.


How many others aboard ship would know the self-destruct codes?

 

[Stormrage]

The problem when it comes to ships in Star Trek is that it is always left up to the Writers to decided what happens and the special effects team to show how it looks like.

Justtoyourleft said:
^
The British are in the more dangerous part of Afghanistan but - with all due respect - German troops are dying as well. It's not like they're on vacation.
I'd also like to point out that I think the British as well as the US troops have substantially more experience in situations like this and I imagine they're also better equipped on average. Budget is an issue for the Bundeswehr.

It's kind of curious: I think Germans are still very aware of WWII when it comes to German soldiers fighting on foreign territory. It still takes getting used to. I think at least in respect to missions such as this most of the other countries are less pre-occupied with the past.

I think Germans need to stop living in the past. Just because the Germans did bad things during WW2 doesn't mean they are going to do it again. I remember watching the reaction of Germans when the federation of expelles wanted to build a museum for the expelled Germans. People were outraged that someone dared to tell the story of millions people kicked out of their own homes.

 

[USS KG5]

Nerroth said:
Keogh wouldn't have been able to do a lot if the Jem'hadar had sent boarding parties onto the bridge and into main engineering, and gunned him and his entire senior staff down in one fell swoop.

How many others aboard ship would know the self-destruct codes?

You don't need the self destruct codes to blow the ship up - besides as fans of non-canon publications will know there is more than one self destruct system, except on Voyager!

Besides there is some evidence even without main shields there are transporter prevention shields in place, the "defense fields" from TWOK for example. There must also be a reason why the Remans punched a hole in the shields on Deck 29 (at the bottom) rather than deck 1 to get Picard in NEM, maybe transporters are deflected away from key areas?

 

[captcalhoun]

you don't need an auto-destruct. take a phaser on max disrupt to the warp-core...