Galaxy Class starship vs. 5 Cardassian Warships,,,,,,,,

[Redshirts_Widow]

Here goes with a completely bizarre theory but here goes..

Point 1: we see the Defiant in 'The Search ptII' destroy a Jem Hadar attack ship with a full barrage of phaser cannons.

Point 2: We see the Defiant fire a similar burst at a Galor Class warship in 'Defiant'. This barrage quote "direct hit on their port nacelle and their shields are down 30% (it COULD be 'to' 30% will have to check)"

From points 1 and 2 we can therefore assume that a Galor Class is tougher (for lack of a better word) then a Jem Hadar attack cruiser.

Now factor in the fact that in 'The Jem Hadar' we see the USS Odyssey get a pasting from 3 Jem Hadar attack cruisers, and this was before the suicide run.

Therefore if a Galaxy can get a pasting from 3 lesser ships then by my convuluted logic up against 5 superior Galor class then the Galaxy is toast.

Now make of tha what you will!

 

[USS KG5]

Timo said:
Yet it certainly looks like the Klingon enemies are very large in physical size, and rather clumsy in maneuvers, in both "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Rascals" where the same footage is used. The size effect was very intentional, and IMHO shouldn't be lightly ignored.

I agree that there are different sizes of BofP, but not the massive monstrosities posited in the DS9 tech manual. They are too big to really make snese compared to the other ships.

Witness for example the landing craft and landing ships of WWII: very similar hull forms, very distinct from all other warships, but over a range of sizes from a small half-platoon-sized boat to an oceangoing transport vessel.

I agree - with a restriction to a sensible upper range somewhat smaller than a Battle Cruiser. BUT I would not restrict it to three. The design has obviously been built to a similar specification for over a century, there are probably a hundred different variations, with maybe a 50-100 metre variation from smallest to largest.

I put the vast differences in size sometimes seen in TNG down to the near impossibility of judging size and distance in space...

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Redshirts_Widow said:
Here goes with a completely bizarre theory but here goes..

Point 1: we see the Defiant in 'The Search ptII' destroy a Jem Hadar attack ship with a full barrage of phaser cannons.

Point 2: We see the Defiant fire a similar burst at a Galor Class warship in 'Defiant'. This barrage quote "direct hit on their port nacelle and their shields are down 30% (it COULD be 'to' 30% will have to check)"

From points 1 and 2 we can therefore assume that a Galor Class is tougher (for lack of a better word) then a Jem Hadar attack cruiser.

Now factor in the fact that in 'The Jem Hadar' we see the USS Odyssey get a pasting from 3 Jem Hadar attack cruisers, and this was before the suicide run.

Therefore if a Galaxy can get a pasting from 3 lesser ships then by my convuluted logic up against 5 superior Galor class then the Galaxy is toast.

Now make of tha what you will!

Jem'Hadar ships had Polaron beams. They penetrated shields, making them useless.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

JingleBell Jarok said:

Redshirts_Widow said:
Here goes with a completely bizarre theory but here goes..

Point 1: we see the Defiant in 'The Search ptII' destroy a Jem Hadar attack ship with a full barrage of phaser cannons.

Point 2: We see the Defiant fire a similar burst at a Galor Class warship in 'Defiant'. This barrage quote "direct hit on their port nacelle and their shields are down 30% (it COULD be 'to' 30% will have to check)"

From points 1 and 2 we can therefore assume that a Galor Class is tougher (for lack of a better word) then a Jem Hadar attack cruiser.

Now factor in the fact that in 'The Jem Hadar' we see the USS Odyssey get a pasting from 3 Jem Hadar attack cruisers, and this was before the suicide run.

Therefore if a Galaxy can get a pasting from 3 lesser ships then by my convuluted logic up against 5 superior Galor class then the Galaxy is toast.

Now make of tha what you will!

Jem'Hadar ships had Polaron beams. They penetrated shields, making them useless.

Thanks for clearing that up for him because because I was just about to give the guy a pasteing for his remarks about the Odyssey.

Also i'd like to point out that in 'Defiant' the defiant fired on a keldon class ship not a Galor class, Keldon class is much tougher than a Galor PLUS it was stated on screen that those ships were far mor powerful than any usual cardassian ship.
You have to factor in the fact about ship size also, a Keldon class is much larger than a Jem'Hadar attack ship and therefore wouldnt be destroyed in a single barrage PLUS because its bigger the shields would likely be much more powerful, its basic common sense really.

What DID surprise me was how well that Keldon survived at strike by 4 Quantum Torpedos after the initial barrage, the torpedos only succeeded in disabling it and not destroying it but that could be put down to the fact the Keldons of the Obsidion Order were heavily uprgraded.

 

[USS KG5]

Fire said:
Thanks for clearing that up for him because because I was just about to give the guy a pasteing for his remarks about the Odyssey.

To go a bit further, the Odyssey took a pounding from the Jem H'Adar for 5 minutes or so and was still very much in one piece and plugging away. The suicide run finished her, had it not been for that a few days in spacedock would have repaired her damage.

Also i'd like to point out that in 'Defiant' the defiant fired on a keldon class ship not a Galor class, Keldon class is much tougher than a Galor PLUS it was stated on screen that those ships were far mor powerful than any usual cardassian ship.

Plusa volley of phasers followed up by one of torpedoes crippled the ship, the Defiant is clearly a bad MOFO...

What DID surprise me was how well that Keldon survived at strike by 4 Quantum Torpedos after the initial barrage, the torpedos only succeeded in disabling it and not destroying it but that could be put down to the fact the Keldons of the Obsidion Order were heavily uprgraded.

well they did not seem to be torpedo hits in a critical area. We have rarely seen ships in Trek destroyed by a single direct hit, it is secondary damage that usually takes them out, like a core breach caused by other damage.

 

[MyCylon]

DumbDumb2007 said:
Coukd a Galaxy Class Starship handle an attack by 5 Cardassian Warships ?

Depends on what the writers happen to need

 

[Timo]

As regards the death of the Odyssey, we can argue between two causes: the superiority of phased polaron beams against the then-standard Starfleet shields, and Keogh's order to drop shields as the result of their ineffectiveness against those beams. As USS KG% says, she was still in one piece after all the beam-pounding, but it was the beams that made Keogh drop the shields, and it was the shield-dropping that apparently made the suicide run possible.

As for the Keldon class, those look basically identical to Galor. I doubt they are structurally any stronger or sport more or bigger weapons. Rather, I suspect the bulky addition to the dorsal midhull houses some Romulan technology lend-leased by the Tal'Shiar for the joint Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order project - namely, a quantum singularity powerplant.

This would make the standard Cardassian systems perform at much higher power levels, giving the ships more speed and shielding and oomph for the rayguns. This would also explain the dozens upon dozens of quantum singularity markers that appear on Dax' screen in "The Die is Cast", even though only about half a dozen actual Romulan ships are seen, and some twenty are spoken of: not only the Romulan Warbirds, but also the Cardassian cruisers would have singularities aboard.

Apart from that first encounter between the Odyssey and the three Jem'Hadar attack ships, it has been pretty standard that large cruiser-type vessels require several volleys from the guns of the Defiant (or any other Starfleet or Klingon warship), while the small attack ships can be destroyed with just one volley.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Redshirts_Widow]

To go a bit further, the Odyssey took a pounding from the Jem H'Adar for 5 minutes or so and was still very much in one piece and plugging away. The suicide run finished her, had it not been for that a few days in spacedock would have repaired her damage.

OK whilst I take onboard the Cardassian vessels in 'Defiant' being Keldorn class rather than Galor Class, and the comments from Timo (very well put by the way) regarding the Jem Hadar's use of polaron beams, i dispute that the Odyssey was "plugging away".

Her port warp nacelle was off-line, and one of her power couplings had been destroyed meaning she hadlost power to phasers (stated by her XO i think). So she can't run and she can't fight back. I have no doubt that without the suicide run that a drydock could have fixed her, i do however doubt that she'd make it TO drydock in the first place.

 

[Timo]

Hmm. The loss of power couplings is a common enough calamity for our heroes and expendable extras alike. But the heroes do seem to know how to put those things back together, if given a few minutes of peace between attacks.

And Keogh at least seemed convinced that his crew could make the nacelle do the nacelle thing again, without a need for a drydock session. Or at least when somebody like Picard says "I want X working again!" it usually means X can realistically be repaired.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[poloronbeam]

<<As regards the death of the Odyssey, we can argue between two causes: the superiority of phased polaron beams against the then-standard Starfleet shields, and Keogh's order to drop shields as the result of their ineffectiveness against those beams. As USS KG% says, she was still in one piece after all the beam-pounding, but it was the beams that made Keogh drop the shields, and it was the shield-dropping that apparently made the suicide run possible.>>

Im not certain how much actual "beam-pounding" that Odyssey was really able to withstand. Remember, there were two runabouts that was also assisting the Odyssey in this battle and was taking some of the "heat" off of the Odyssey. Interestingly, even with the extra-boost to the weapons, as well as the assistance from the runabouts, there is no indication that the Odyssey was able to destroy or severely damage any of the Jem'Haddar ships.

Additionally, there is no indication that even if Keogh had not transferred shield power to weapons, that the result would have been any different. In "What You Leave Behind", one of the tactics that the Jem'Haddar used against the Klingons was to ram their ships, and destroying or severely damaging them. Presumably, those Klingon ships had their shields raised, but the ramming still caused significant damage or destruction.

Now it could be argued that as a defense to this tactic, that Starfleet switched to a "skin tight" shield configuration to make their ships more resistant to ramming.

 

[Cyke101]

Funny how the Enterprise and the Odyssey both fell primarily because their enemies could bypass their shields.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Cyke101 said:
Funny how the Enterprise and the Odyssey both fell primarily because their enemies could bypass their shields.

Without shields a ship is pretty much screwed, it only takes one strike penetrating the engineering section of the hull and the warp core goes KABOOM.

 

[Redshirts_Widow]

Cyke101 said:
Funny how the Enterprise and the Odyssey both fell primarily because their enemies could bypass their shields.

Do you reckon that the Odyssey's Chief Engineer was also prone to waiting until the last minute to roll underneath the lowering pressure door in Main Engineering?

 

[Cyke101]

Fire said:

Cyke101 said:
Funny how the Enterprise and the Odyssey both fell primarily because their enemies could bypass their shields.

Without shields a ship is pretty much screwed, it only takes one strike penetrating the engineering section of the hull and the warp core goes KABOOM.

That's what I'm thinking as well. Or even one strike to the bridge, and that's sheer calamity right there. That's probably why ablative hull armor was created in the first place.

AH, I forgot! Special mention goes to the Yamato, for getting blown up in a way that never required shields in the first place! Seems that the only way to beat a Galaxy is to make their shields useless

Redshirts_Widow said:
Do you reckon that the Odyssey's Chief Engineer was also prone to waiting until the last minute to roll underneath the lowering pressure door in Main Engineering?

They had a class at the Academy called Epic Geordi Manevuer 101!

 

[broberfett]

I always got a great laugh out of the Geordi manuever.

 

[USS KG5]

Redshirts_Widow said:
Her port warp nacelle was off-line, and one of her power couplings had been destroyed meaning she hadlost power to phasers (stated by her XO i think). So she can't run and she can't fight back. I have no doubt that without the suicide run that a drydock could have fixed her, i do however doubt that she'd make it TO drydock in the first place.

Well no-one is disputing she took a pasting but was a long way from going down. In Trek generally even quite dramatic damage seems repairable in a couple of hours. The Odyssey had been deliberately precisely crippled by the Jem H'Adar, but Keogh seemed fairly confident in his engineers getting the nacelle back on line. If they had done it a minute or so sooner the Odyssey would have warped back to the wormhole and returned intact.

The Galaxy class is consistently portrayed as very tough, however, like in the real world even the biggest toughest ships often go down to a sucker punch from a smaller enemy in a tactically superior position. Need I list the number of British capital ships lost to U-Boats in WW2?

 

[MyCylon]

^
Is the term "U-Boats" commonly used as another word for submarines or only pertaining to German subs? The German term is "U-Boot" but I haven't seen "U-Boat" before. Just curious.

 

[Timo]

It's a classic British term dating from both World Wars, too. Since the submarine was an archetypally German weapon in WWI, the German name for it caught on in Britain and the English-speaking world.

Similarly, for some undecipherable reason, (German) torpedo boats are commonly known as E-boats after the British term they claim to have adopted from the Germans, even though the Germans themselves considered them "S-Boot", or "Schnellboot", "fast boat".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[broberfett]

Justtoyourleft said:
^
Is the term "U-Boats" commonly used as another word for submarines or only pertaining to German subs? The German term is "U-Boot" but I haven't seen "U-Boat" before. Just curious.

It stands for Untersee Boot(under sea boat).

 

[MyCylon]

^
I know what it stands for since I am German I just hadn't heard the term "U-Boat" in English before.