FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Again, like TOS-R though, this is not just a matter of quality but also one of style. You can attempt to remake it shot for shot like Gabe's Intro attempt, or you can attempt to make it something else. I for one wouldn't mind changing Earth Station McKinley in "Family" into something more like this.


(Yes, this is Gabe's too. Dude's a legend).

I disagree. The E was in something like that in Starship Mine. It's not as if the producers didn't know what they could make. That kind of drydock have been in ST lore forever. They consciously made McKinley look the way it did and it had nothing to do with budget or ability.

One thing that does interest me is that the model elements are all on film, but what about the computer generated stuff? McKinley, the space baby, the comet in Masks. I'm assuming that would have to be remodeled and rerendered.

McKinley Station was a model, but yes, all the CGI would need to be redone.

McKinley station is fine, it just needs a lot more detail for HD, and I didn't like the angles it was filmed at.

the model elements are all on film, but what about the computer generated stuff? McKinley, the space baby, the comet in Masks. I'm assuming that would have to be remodeled and rerendered.

The TNG CGI models are probably gone.

The CGI models for VOY and ENT are around backed up somewhere at Eden FX.
Anything from TNG is probably gone.
The CGI models these days use different software anyway. The resolution for HD would require additional detail work on a old model anyway.
Anything from ENT would be usuable and already in enough detail for HD.
If CBS Digital were doing the job though they probably wouldn't pay to license CGI models from Eden FX.

Its ok with me, I think they should design the E-D from scratch, and make sure its accurate as possible proportion-wise..though I wouldn't mind a few changes to details.

The STNG CGI was far too low quality res to re-use...

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Found a bunch of Koerners attempts at the TNG intro: http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/GCKoerner/art/?start=all

I wonder if he did a video?

These are the closest I have seen to TNG FX done in CG. Sign him up CBS! Like I said its not perfect but its pretty good for one mans attempt. I say get him and Tobias Richter to work together on it FYI Gabe Koerner is the guy that made the CGI Enterprise D in These are the Voyages incase people wonder WTF I am talking about and Tobias Richter is a Trek CGI god.

These are nice, he has most of it down, but it could be slightly more accurate. They may need to borrow the original model and scan it. I'm sure the owner won't mind.

 

[RAMA]

Re: old CGI models

the model elements are all on film, but what about the computer generated stuff? McKinley, the space baby, the comet in Masks. I'm assuming that would have to be remodeled and rerendered.

The TNG CGI models are probably gone.

The CGI models for VOY and ENT are around backed up somewhere at Eden FX.
Anything from TNG is probably gone.
The CGI models these days use different software anyway. The resolution for HD would require additional detail work on a old model anyway.
Anything from ENT would be usuable and already in enough detail for HD.
If CBS Digital were doing the job though they probably wouldn't pay to license CGI models from Eden FX.

CGI in Star Trek:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/CGI

Early CGI in STNG:

More sophisticated wire frame in Voyager:

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Cgi models

Thanks RAMA for that link. On the software section it goes into great detail about ILMs cgi models and DS9's usage of.
Perhaps the cgi models from DS9 are available and can be used for TNG-R .

 

[RAMA]

Re: Cgi models

Thanks RAMA for that link. On the software section it goes into great detail about ILMs cgi models and DS9's usage of.
Perhaps the cgi models from DS9 are available and can be used for TNG-R .

You would think with all the attention paid to preserving/archiving/restoring films that they would pay the same attention to modern productions, but that didn't seem to be the case. Eventually there may be a system to preserve these "virtual" aspects of future production.

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I noticed in Conspiracy that there is a slightly longer than avg establishing shot of the E-D in orbit around Dytallix B...but the other 3 ships are not visible...a great opportunity to add the classes of these ships to canon in the RM version. Apparently the two frigates are New Orleans class, and the Horatio was an Ambassador...but should it be the Probert design or the Sternbach? Hmm...

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x25/conspiracy034.jpg

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/New_Orleans_class

RAMA

 

[Dukhat]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I noticed in Conspiracy that there is a slightly longer than avg establishing shot of the E-D in orbit around Dytallix B...but the other 3 ships are not visible...a great opportunity to add the classes of these ships to canon in the RM version. Apparently the two frigates are New Orleans class, and the Horatio was an Ambassador...but should it be the Probert design or the Sternbach? Hmm...

Since the Ambassador class is pretty well established as being Sternbach's design, I think it should remain so. Now, that's not to say that Probert's design couldn't be used to represent one of the conjectural classes, say, the Renaissance class Aries in Picard's detection grid in 'Redemption"...

And as for the other two ships, I don't think it's always necessary to have a slavish devotion to the Star Trek Encyclopedia (especially since it's now way out of date), but in this case I believe that both the Renegade and the Thomas Paine were identified as New Orleans class ships on an LCARS display somewhere.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Growing up with this as a kid I got overly frustrated with the TNG special effect technique of over-using the same shots to denote different battles or pieces of action.

Need to show a klingon Civil war? Why not re-use the battle and explosion from Yesterday's Enterprise?
Still feeling lazy next season, write that Ferengi (!) have stolen Klingon Birds of Prey (!!!) so you can use the same fx shots again!

Also the TNG warp effect is one of my favourite SFX sequences in all of Sci-fi (which is why I was a bit annoyed they ruined it for Enterprise but that's by the by...) but did TNG ever make a new warp out sequence apart from the two created for the opening title sequence and the one for the pilot where it warps away from the Q-Cage?

More than anything I'm hoping the FX team will go for variety and not have to sit through the same 10 shots of the Enterprise over and over and over.
(which I think was the TOS-R's weakness) try to recreate shot for shot FX sequences created using archaic techniques...)
Using Modern Technology to make things look as bad as 1987 isn't the best idea either, I hope they're not too afraid to change things if it makes them better (Phasers not out of Torpedo launchers, ship classes matching on screen and dialouge etc.

Oh and if they can finally fix the spelling of the Brittain that'd be handy too

(In a related note, if there is a "TNG FX shot drinking game" out there? I'm sure we could get hammered looking at the same flyby shots of the Big D! )

 

[Sean Aaron]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Still feeling lazy next season, write that Ferengi (!) have stolen Klingon Birds of Prey (!!!) so you can use the same fx shots again!

Personally I think it's a bit unfair to flag that as lazy when the show was likely pretty expensive to produce already. I'd have preferred less episodes with less recycling of effects shots, but I didn't find it that egregious since it's a TV show.

Re-using the final explosion from Star Trek VI in Generations on the other hand...

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Using Modern Technology to make things look as bad as 1987 isn't the best idea either, I hope they're not too afraid to change things if it makes them better

Considering the cost involved in a TNG-R project with all new visual effects I'm sure they will make the effects as good as Enterprise season 3 or 4 if the time allows.
It's about making the effects modern and all of the space ship exteriors will be CGI which means a ENT season 3 or 4 look which is pretty state of the art...see these 2 ENT episodes. Yes state of the art for 2004 but if it's HD and it looks great it's still holding up in 2011.

Any discussion of space ship exteriors should compare with ENT seasons 3/4 and how you'd like it any different really.

 

[Mike Ram]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I know it's a little thing, but it would be cool if they also included the commercial bumpers. You know, the 5-second crescendo of the main theme that played in-between the breaks. Haven't seen those since the show was originally aired.

And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ6NIuaTWjU

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here is Tobias Richters E-D - He has just finished it.

Look here for high res images: http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?77687-NCC-1701-D-USS-Enterprise/page24

 

[JJohnson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Well its always going to go to the lowest bidder which in TOS-Rs case was the in-house CBS Digital. I am sure that CBS Digital will be aware that subpar FX will not be tolerated in a new TNG remastering but ultimately they must work with whatever budget they are given... The bottom line is profit and a few whining nerds on TrekBBS aint going to change it The suits don't care about anything but the balance sheet. A recent example is the Star Trek movie collection on blu-ray. With the exception of TWOK they brutally 'cleaned' the other TOS movies with a digital algorithm that turned the actors into waxworks and removed the film grain! You can bet that someone argued with the suits to give every movie the TWOK treatment but ultimately they went with the cheaper option and again no amount of internet whine would ever change it What would be nice is if Paramount gave Tobias Richter the money for TNG-R and he would come up with something better than EDEN/ZOIC/CBS/ILM could do

I would actually like the film grain removed. When there's too much of it, it makes the film look older and lower-resolution to me.

So long as it's removed correctly, it would look fine to me. Not just some algorithm.

 

[JJohnson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here is Tobias Richters E-D - He has just finished it.

Look here for high res images: http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?77687-NCC-1701-D-USS-Enterprise/page24

Wow! Excellent render!

As for detail....how about showing Ten Forward lit and with people in there moving around? Maybe some people in their quarters too.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Well its always going to go to the lowest bidder which in TOS-Rs case was the in-house CBS Digital. I am sure that CBS Digital will be aware that subpar FX will not be tolerated in a new TNG remastering but ultimately they must work with whatever budget they are given... The bottom line is profit and a few whining nerds on TrekBBS aint going to change it The suits don't care about anything but the balance sheet. A recent example is the Star Trek movie collection on blu-ray. With the exception of TWOK they brutally 'cleaned' the other TOS movies with a digital algorithm that turned the actors into waxworks and removed the film grain! You can bet that someone argued with the suits to give every movie the TWOK treatment but ultimately they went with the cheaper option and again no amount of internet whine would ever change it What would be nice is if Paramount gave Tobias Richter the money for TNG-R and he would come up with something better than EDEN/ZOIC/CBS/ILM could do

I would actually like the film grain removed. When there's too much of it, it makes the film look older and lower-resolution to me.

So long as it's removed correctly, it would look fine to me. Not just some algorithm.

Well we will agree to disagree on that one. They should re-scan the film at the highest resolution and whatever comes out of that scanner is what should be used. No filters or digital cleanup that alters anything.

The reason Paramount chose to remove grain on the motion picture blu-ray is because with the exception of TWOK they decided to use old 1080i scans that where done for the DVDs because they didn't want to spend money on rescanning them. Check out Star Trek 6 for proof of the awful results.

 

[JJohnson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Growing up with this as a kid I got overly frustrated with the TNG special effect technique of over-using the same shots to denote different battles or pieces of action.

Need to show a klingon Civil war? Why not re-use the battle and explosion from Yesterday's Enterprise?
Still feeling lazy next season, write that Ferengi (!) have stolen Klingon Birds of Prey (!!!) so you can use the same fx shots again!

Also the TNG warp effect is one of my favourite SFX sequences in all of Sci-fi (which is why I was a bit annoyed they ruined it for Enterprise but that's by the by...) but did TNG ever make a new warp out sequence apart from the two created for the opening title sequence and the one for the pilot where it warps away from the Q-Cage?

More than anything I'm hoping the FX team will go for variety and not have to sit through the same 10 shots of the Enterprise over and over and over.
(which I think was the TOS-R's weakness) try to recreate shot for shot FX sequences created using archaic techniques...)
Using Modern Technology to make things look as bad as 1987 isn't the best idea either, I hope they're not too afraid to change things if it makes them better (Phasers not out of Torpedo launchers, ship classes matching on screen and dialouge etc.

Oh and if they can finally fix the spelling of the Brittain that'd be handy too

(In a related note, if there is a "TNG FX shot drinking game" out there? I'm sure we could get hammered looking at the same flyby shots of the Big D! )

The one shot I never want to see again is that through-the-neck warp fly-by shot of the Enterprise we always saw in practically every episode. Every time I see that it looks like the ship is flying at some weird angle the way the stars are positioned.

It's kind of like the original Enterprise doing its flyby at warp, where it flies into the camera at an angle. It just looks weird.

 

[JJohnson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I noticed in Conspiracy that there is a slightly longer than avg establishing shot of the E-D in orbit around Dytallix B...but the other 3 ships are not visible...a great opportunity to add the classes of these ships to canon in the RM version. Apparently the two frigates are New Orleans class, and the Horatio was an Ambassador...but should it be the Probert design or the Sternbach? Hmm...

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x25/conspiracy034.jpg

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/New_Orleans_class

RAMA

Great idea! More ships, fewer Excelsiors and Mirandas (except Enterprise-B variant Excelsiors), and more alternative designs.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Growing up with this as a kid I got overly frustrated with the TNG special effect technique of over-using the same shots to denote different battles or pieces of action.

Need to show a klingon Civil war? Why not re-use the battle and explosion from Yesterday's Enterprise?
Still feeling lazy next season, write that Ferengi (!) have stolen Klingon Birds of Prey (!!!) so you can use the same fx shots again!

Also the TNG warp effect is one of my favourite SFX sequences in all of Sci-fi (which is why I was a bit annoyed they ruined it for Enterprise but that's by the by...) but did TNG ever make a new warp out sequence apart from the two created for the opening title sequence and the one for the pilot where it warps away from the Q-Cage?

More than anything I'm hoping the FX team will go for variety and not have to sit through the same 10 shots of the Enterprise over and over and over.
(which I think was the TOS-R's weakness) try to recreate shot for shot FX sequences created using archaic techniques...)
Using Modern Technology to make things look as bad as 1987 isn't the best idea either, I hope they're not too afraid to change things if it makes them better (Phasers not out of Torpedo launchers, ship classes matching on screen and dialouge etc.

Oh and if they can finally fix the spelling of the Brittain that'd be handy too

(In a related note, if there is a "TNG FX shot drinking game" out there? I'm sure we could get hammered looking at the same flyby shots of the Big D! )

The one shot I never want to see again is that through-the-neck warp fly-by shot of the Enterprise we always saw in practically every episode. Every time I see that it looks like the ship is flying at some weird angle the way the stars are positioned.

It's kind of like the original Enterprise doing its flyby at warp, where it flies into the camera at an angle. It just looks weird.

Yup the stars do not go past the camera at the angle the Enterprise is pointing. Would be nice to get a new version of this

EDIT: I am not sure if you meant this one actually, but this shot does need fixing as well!

 

[JJohnson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Growing up with this as a kid I got overly frustrated with the TNG special effect technique of over-using the same shots to denote different battles or pieces of action.

Need to show a klingon Civil war? Why not re-use the battle and explosion from Yesterday's Enterprise?
Still feeling lazy next season, write that Ferengi (!) have stolen Klingon Birds of Prey (!!!) so you can use the same fx shots again!

Also the TNG warp effect is one of my favourite SFX sequences in all of Sci-fi (which is why I was a bit annoyed they ruined it for Enterprise but that's by the by...) but did TNG ever make a new warp out sequence apart from the two created for the opening title sequence and the one for the pilot where it warps away from the Q-Cage?

More than anything I'm hoping the FX team will go for variety and not have to sit through the same 10 shots of the Enterprise over and over and over.
(which I think was the TOS-R's weakness) try to recreate shot for shot FX sequences created using archaic techniques...)
Using Modern Technology to make things look as bad as 1987 isn't the best idea either, I hope they're not too afraid to change things if it makes them better (Phasers not out of Torpedo launchers, ship classes matching on screen and dialouge etc.

Oh and if they can finally fix the spelling of the Brittain that'd be handy too

(In a related note, if there is a "TNG FX shot drinking game" out there? I'm sure we could get hammered looking at the same flyby shots of the Big D! )

The one shot I never want to see again is that through-the-neck warp fly-by shot of the Enterprise we always saw in practically every episode. Every time I see that it looks like the ship is flying at some weird angle the way the stars are positioned.

It's kind of like the original Enterprise doing its flyby at warp, where it flies into the camera at an angle. It just looks weird.

Yup the stars do not go past the camera at the angle the Enterprise is pointing. Would be nice to get a new version of this

EDIT: I am not sure if you meant this one actually, but this shot does need fixing as well!

That's the other one! This shot had the odd-angle stars too!!

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

This also shows how much detail is lost without HD

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=92083&d=1313062079