FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[bullethead]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I'm less interested in seeing new shots and/or fights than in seeing some basic budgetary constraints corrected – giving us some decent Klingon ships instead of the oversized BoPs, using Probert's intended Ambassador design instead of the simplified model we got, and so forth. It might be nice to redesign the End-D in whole or in part to match the more militaristic interiors.

I'm pretty sure the lack of maneuvers was a result of budgetary constraints.

 

[Vanyel]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I'm less interested in seeing new shots and/or fights than in seeing some basic budgetary constraints corrected – giving us some decent Klingon ships instead of the oversized BoPs, using Probert's intended Ambassador design instead of the simplified model we got, and so forth. It might be nice to redesign the End-D in whole or in part to match the more militaristic interiors.

Does anyone ever refer to the Klingon ships as BoP's or just Riker's use of "K'vort Class?" If they don't mention a BoP then I'm cool with changing them to another design like a Vor'cha. But that would, I think, then need more FX's shots. They do destroy one ship during the battle. Facing off against three Vor'Cha's would be a whole change in tactics. The 1701-D would have to concentrate fire on one to destroy a ship that roughly equivalent to her in fire power. The Klingons, wouldn't move in to protect the singled out ship, like Starfleet would, which would leave 1 ship to go after the 1701-C and the other to attack whichever it chooses to.

So if a whole new ship is developed it would have to be between a BoP and a Vor'Cha. If that's the case why not just use an unscaled BoP?

 

[bullethead]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I'm less interested in seeing new shots and/or fights than in seeing some basic budgetary constraints corrected – giving us some decent Klingon ships instead of the oversized BoPs, using Probert's intended Ambassador design instead of the simplified model we got, and so forth. It might be nice to redesign the End-D in whole or in part to match the more militaristic interiors.

Does anyone ever refer to the Klingon ships as BoP's or just Riker's use of "K'vort Class?" If they don't mention a BoP then I'm cool with changing them to another design like a Vor'cha. But that would, I think, then need more FX's shots. They do destroy one ship during the battle. Facing off against three Vor'Cha's would be a whole change in tactics. The 1701-D would have to concentrate fire on one to destroy a ship that roughly equivalent to her in fire power. The Klingons, wouldn't move in to protect the singled out ship, like Starfleet would, which would leave 1 ship to go after the 1701-C and the other to attack whichever it chooses to.

So if a whole new ship is developed it would have to be between a BoP and a Vor'Cha. If that's the case why not just use an unscaled BoP?

Because having a so-called battleship get its ass kicked by three tiny ships that could be easily taken out by applying the ship's weapons properly is actually worse than when the regular Enterprise D got taken out by an outdated BoP.

 

[Vanyel]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I'm less interested in seeing new shots and/or fights than in seeing some basic budgetary constraints corrected – giving us some decent Klingon ships instead of the oversized BoPs, using Probert's intended Ambassador design instead of the simplified model we got, and so forth. It might be nice to redesign the End-D in whole or in part to match the more militaristic interiors.

Does anyone ever refer to the Klingon ships as BoP's or just Riker's use of "K'vort Class?" If they don't mention a BoP then I'm cool with changing them to another design like a Vor'cha. But that would, I think, then need more FX's shots. They do destroy one ship during the battle. Facing off against three Vor'Cha's would be a whole change in tactics. The 1701-D would have to concentrate fire on one to destroy a ship that roughly equivalent to her in fire power. The Klingons, wouldn't move in to protect the singled out ship, like Starfleet would, which would leave 1 ship to go after the 1701-C and the other to attack whichever it chooses to.

So if a whole new ship is developed it would have to be between a BoP and a Vor'Cha. If that's the case why not just use an unscaled BoP?

Because having a so-called battleship get its ass kicked by three tiny ships that could be easily taken out by applying the ship's weapons properly is actually worse than when the regular Enterprise D got taken out by an outdated BoP.

Having 3 ships which are ~as strong as the battleship 1701-D would be a massacre. The battleship 1701-D wouldn't stand a chance of defending itself and/or the 1701-C. The scene needed a strong Klingon ships, but not a class where a single ship of that class is strong enough to take on the battleship 1701-D by itself. An upscaled BoP fits that role nicely. Strong, but not too strong. So why create another ship? Also, since YE takes place in an alternate Time Line, why couldn't there be a large BoP?

 

[Dac]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Does anyone ever refer to the Klingon ships as BoP's or just Riker's use of "K'vort Class?" If they don't mention a BoP then I'm cool with changing them to another design like a Vor'cha. But that would, I think, then need more FX's shots. They do destroy one ship during the battle. Facing off against three Vor'Cha's would be a whole change in tactics. The 1701-D would have to concentrate fire on one to destroy a ship that roughly equivalent to her in fire power. The Klingons, wouldn't move in to protect the singled out ship, like Starfleet would, which would leave 1 ship to go after the 1701-C and the other to attack whichever it chooses to.

So if a whole new ship is developed it would have to be between a BoP and a Vor'Cha. If that's the case why not just use an unscaled BoP?

Because having a so-called battleship get its ass kicked by three tiny ships that could be easily taken out by applying the ship's weapons properly is actually worse than when the regular Enterprise D got taken out by an outdated BoP.

Having 3 ships which are ~as strong as the battleship 1701-D would be a massacre. The battleship 1701-D wouldn't stand a chance of defending itself and/or the 1701-C. The scene needed a strong Klingon ships, but not a class where a single ship of that class is strong enough to take on the battleship 1701-D by itself. An upscaled BoP fits that role nicely. Strong, but not too strong. So why create another ship? Also, since YE takes place in an alternate Time Line, why couldn't there be a large BoP?

Because a 400m wide version of a ship that's 100m wide looks fucking retarded.

Considering the state of war that exists in this timeline, simply replacing them with K'Tinga's makes more sense if you ask me.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I am watching First Contact...

I therefore demand to see a moon with 50 million living on it. Lake Armstrong, Tycho City, New Berlin. Not a barren rock. I am sure the moon crops up prominently in Conspiracy. Make it so!

 

[T'Girl]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Can we CG out Pulaski altogether and replace her with something less offensive. Like Jar-Jar Binks?

CGI out a lot of the "standard Human" crewmember we see in the background of bridge and corridor shots and replace them with non-Humans.

I just saw the Green Lantern movie a few days ago, and was impressed with the large number of alien-looking aliens.

Put them in Starfleet garb and improve Star Trek's multispecies image.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Can we CG out Pulaski altogether and replace her with something less offensive. Like Jar-Jar Binks?

CGI out a lot of the "standard Human" crewmember we see in the background of bridge and corridor shots and replace them with non-Humans.

I just saw the Green Lantern movie a few days ago, and was impressed with the large number of alien-looking aliens.

Put them in Starfleet garb and improve Star Trek's multispecies image.

This.

Would love to see someone of Lt. Arex's Species in TNG.

But make sure they don't look as fake as the ones in 'Green Lantern'

 

[Butters]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I am watching First Contact...

I therefore demand to see a moon with 50 million living on it. Lake Armstrong, Tycho City, New Berlin. Not a barren rock. I am sure the moon crops up prominently in Conspiracy. Make it so!

Me too, on E4. And me too. It would violate canon not to.

 

[mswood]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Again the problem with this is the visual effect space shots of TOS were extremely poor.

Too put it in perspective go watch the general look of Voyager season 3 (when the bulk of ships shots, not just the earlier warp shots) visual effects of ships that wee primarily now done digital.

Now compare that to the work CBS did. And think Voyager season three occurred in 1997, and the Remastering took place when, roughly 2006. Nearly a decade later, and their work was far inferior then what ten year old Voyager was producing.

Now the remastered clean up was awesome (Kudos), and the matte updates (also very, well done), but the space ship shots by and large were at best Ok to outright awful.

Now obviously I would love to see the F/X done in a well crafted and well RENDERED manner (seriously 80% of the problem with TOS remastered effects shot was that they didn't spend enough time and resources rendering the details). Remember the first image they released (I wish I had saved a copy) that looked really good (nacelle color arguments not withstanding). But they didn't have the render time to take advantage of those details. They then went with a less rendered model, and it improved some, but it still felt that the needed far more rendering then what we got. ANd that was the Enterprise.

And other ships, please the rendering on them was pathetic. From the Bird of Prey, the Shuttle, K7, and the Klingon cruiser (seriously that was some of the worst work I have seen with recent memory).

I just don't see Viacom/CBS spending the amount of money to actually get good results on this.

I was truly disappointed with a huge amount of the f/x work in TOS remastered. Especially their more active shots, just didn't seem put together well. Things like attacking the Doomsday Machine, Fighting the Klingons, Sling Shot around the Sun, ect. Just poorly done.

I just don't think CBS digital had either the ability, time, or money (or combinations of these three things). And I just don't see them going to an outside effects house. Which is a damn shame.

 

[bullethead]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Again the problem with this is the visual effect space shots of TOS were extremely poor.

-snip-

While the time and budget issues certainly played a factor in the quality of the TOS-R effects, I feel that the team's desire to make everything seem like it could have been produced in the 1960s lead them to make some poor choices when it came to space shots. However, I doubt there will be some mandate to make everything look like it was produced in the 1980s for TNG-R. They will likely push for maximum realism out of the effects, which should avoid some of the more cartoony aspects of TOS-R.

 

[Captain Verata]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

What was so bad about TOS-R space FX? I thought they looked good especially compared to anything from the original.

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

What was so bad about TOS-R space FX? I thought they looked good especially compared to anything from the original.

Something about the space VFX cane across as very 2D, they didn't look like tangible objects. Plus you had some lighting issues and the Klingon D-7 was a low-polygon model.

 

[Captain Verata]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Not trying to say you are wrong but I am curious which scenes had lighting issues? It didn't seem obvious to me if there was any. Then again I have only seen TOS-R once. D7 looked smooth and faithful to original except with impulse engines added.

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here is the low-poly under-belly of the D-7...

This model here has far less in the way of shadowing than the original...

I honestly wished they had let Eden FX (Enterprise) a crack at redoing the TOS effects.

 

[David cgc]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I honestly wished they had let Eden FX (Enterprise) a crack at redoing the TOS effects.

It would've been so sexy.

Aw, wait, the test shot they did isn't there anymore. Nuts. You can still see the stills, though.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Well its always going to go to the lowest bidder which in TOS-Rs case was the in-house CBS Digital. I am sure that CBS Digital will be aware that subpar FX will not be tolerated in a new TNG remastering but ultimately they must work with whatever budget they are given... The bottom line is profit and a few whining nerds on TrekBBS aint going to change it The suits don't care about anything but the balance sheet. A recent example is the Star Trek movie collection on blu-ray. With the exception of TWOK they brutally 'cleaned' the other TOS movies with a digital algorithm that turned the actors into waxworks and removed the film grain! You can bet that someone argued with the suits to give every movie the TWOK treatment but ultimately they went with the cheaper option and again no amount of internet whine would ever change it What would be nice is if Paramount gave Tobias Richter the money for TNG-R and he would come up with something better than EDEN/ZOIC/CBS/ILM could do

 

[Gepard]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I am sure that CBS Digital will be aware that subpar FX will not be tolerated in a new TNG remastering but ultimately they must work with whatever budget they are given...

Subpar FX shouldn't be tolerated in the TOS remaster either, yet look what they gave us.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Well its always going to go to the lowest bidder which in TOS-Rs case was the in-house CBS Digital. I am sure that CBS Digital will be aware that subpar FX will not be tolerated in a new TNG remastering but ultimately they must work with whatever budget they are given... The bottom line is profit and a few whining nerds on TrekBBS aint going to change it

I totally agree with you Flake. If TNG-R happens the most cost effective method would be CBS Digital. With all of the required post-production work to locate the takes, retelecine, reconform the edits, all before visual effects work could even begin, and update the sound FX and a 7.1 sound mix to reflect any new visual FX, then the Visual FX work is only a part of the budget.
It is not necessarily the best quality for the money though over the course of 7 seasons. If they were to test the waters though with a Best of TNG-R on Blu-ray with say even 10 episodes I think Eden FX would do a better job.

A recent example is the Star Trek movie collection on blu-ray. With the exception of TWOK they brutally 'cleaned' the other TOS movies with a digital algorithm that turned the actors into waxworks and removed the film grain! You can bet that someone argued with the suits to give every movie the TWOK treatment but ultimately they went with the cheaper option

This is something else entirely. It is Paramount Pictures full strategy to release The Motion Picture Collection in this way on Blu-ray in 2009. The Blu-ray format just became the official winner of the HD disc war that year and they had Trek XI to use to push sales of the old property, err TOS films as well.
When 2016 rolls around it will be 7 years on and time for a remaster of that old property to 'polish it up'. Maybe at that time a new 4k telecine, dustbust, and very light-handed DNR for all the films except STII:TWOK. At that time Blu-ray may be strong or it may be something else but delivery via digital of 1080p HD movies will be the norm and a "newly remasted Star Trek III:TSFS" just may sell some digital downloads. 30 years would be 2013 but I don't think we'll see it happen.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I am sure that CBS Digital will be aware that subpar FX will not be tolerated in a new TNG remastering but ultimately they must work with whatever budget they are given...

Subpar FX shouldn't be tolerated in the TOS remaster either, yet look what they gave us.

But in the case of TOS they where replacing what many people felt was poor, outdated low-budget 1960s stuff whereas in TNG they would be replacing excellent work with highly detailed models shot with modern equipment and modern technologies that didn't exist in the 60s.

I guess what I am trying to say is that they could get away with it easier with TOS. The masses still believed they where getting an improvement over the original and didn't protest