FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[RAMA]

I'm sure most of the shots will be similar, like TOS-R, but they'll probably have a wider selection of angles of the Enteprise and even the occasional new FX for something that didn'twork or wasn't added at all. Some of my thoughts, first season to start with:

1. Encounter at Farpoint: I don't think we'll see a lot of deviation here, the FX were remarkable for 1987. The alien jelly fish will likely get a makeover.

2. Naked now: Some of the proportions between the Tsiolkovsky and Enterprise seem off. The star material could be made to look somewhat less like an asteroid.

4. The Last Outpost: Don't like the shot of the Enterprise when in orbital relation to another spacecraft. I think that angle has to change. Love the shot of the Ferengi starship when it turns, I think this needs preserving. If at all possible, and it wasn't on TOS-R, they could enhance the planet atmosphere FX.

5. WNOHGB: Don't see anything that needs changing in this one, it would be interesting to see if they can make the FX look close to the original.

8. The Battle: New Stargazer!!! Always hated the kitbash. Also, ship proportions are way off in the episode.

9. Big Goodbye: Maybe a peek at the Jarada?? Please?

More later..

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Just be true to the original effects, don't need them to reinvent the wheel.

 

[22 Stars]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The more I think about it, the more I think 'wow' what a big project this is. 7 seasons, redoing not just the limited shots in TOS, but every fx shot in all of TNG.

I look forward to the official announcement, and this would be a very long, 4-5 year project for all involved.

 

[bullethead]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

-Replace some of the Excelsiors with Ambassadors and some of the Wolf 359 designs.
-Redesign the Warship Enterprise-D in Yesterday's Enterprise and replace the giant BoPs with Vorchas.
-Have a Terran Empire E-D in Parallels, along with a few different E-D designs.
-Use the Bozeman model Gep Malakai created for Cause and Effect.
-Show them using shuttlebay 1 (the big one in the saucer).

 

[Art Vandelay]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I wish they'd redo all the spaceship exterior shots using the original film elements instead of going CGI. Models provide the shots with a certain gravity and scale that just wasn't there with the TOS-R all-CGI Enterprise. However, I am 99.9% sure that this will remain wishful thinking.

So, I guess my wish is that they leave the shots the way they are, just make them better looking. Some things that definitely need to be redone are:

- A few more fly-by perspectives of the Enterprise.

- More realistic planets.

- Replacing the Excelsior-class ship with different vessels in that oft-repeated fly-alongside shot.

- New beam-in shots of planet surfaces. Should give the illusion that the surface of Vagra II (Skin of Evil) is no soundstage.

- New planetary establishing shots. They repeated the Angel One cityscape far too often (later even in DS9 and Voyager.)

 

[GNDN]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I wish they'd redo all the spaceship exterior shots using the original film elements instead of going CGI. Models provide the shots with a certain gravity and scale that just wasn't there with the TOS-R all-CGI Enterprise. However, I am 99.9% sure that this will remain wishful thinking.

100% agree!! 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% certain they'll be no such thing

That said, my hazy memory of the D from TATV was pretty good.

- A few more fly-by perspectives of the Enterprise.

- More realistic planets.

- Replacing the Excelsior-class ship with different vessels in that oft-repeated fly-alongside shot.

- New beam-in shots of planet surfaces. Should give the illusion that the surface of Vagra II (Skin of Evil) is no soundstage.

- New planetary establishing shots. They repeated the Angel One cityscape far too often (later even in DS9 and Voyager.)

Agree with all these. Love the Excelsior shot, but c'mon. Also the perfunctory profile flyby used for tractor beam shots in early seasons.

Armus, of course looks pretty bad, but I don't know if a marked improvement will be seen on whatever schedule/budget they get.

Some of my thoughts, first season to start with:

1. Encounter at Farpoint: I don't think we'll see a lot of deviation here, the FX were remarkable for 1987. The alien jelly fish will likely get a makeover.

2. Naked now: Some of the proportions between the Tsiolkovsky and Enterprise seem off. The star material could be made to look somewhat less like an asteroid.

4. The Last Outpost: Don't like the shot of the Enterprise when in orbital relation to another spacecraft. I think that angle has to change. Love the shot of the Ferengi starship when it turns, I think this needs preserving. If at all possible, and it wasn't on TOS-R, they could enhance the planet atmosphere FX.

5. WNOHGB: Don't see anything that needs changing in this one, it would be interesting to see if they can make the FX look close to the original.

8. The Battle: New Stargazer!!! Always hated the kitbash. Also, ship proportions are way off in the episode.

9. Big Goodbye: Maybe a peek at the Jarada?? Please?

Mostly agree. WNOHGB will be a stylistic challenge. A la The Immunity Syndrome, something that was otherworldly and strangely beautiful can become very cartoonish on a tight schedule.

The Stargazer?!? Sorry, if we gotta see it in the ready room for 7 years, I'd say it's pretty established. I know no one ever walks over to it and says "My, this is a wonderful model of the Stargazer, Jean-Luc", but that design is way too established. Random Mirandas? Go nuts, replace 'em with something else here and there...

Unless you're suggesting we go back to the original audio track and make the Stargazer a Connie Ok, yeah, I'd look to see that ship perform the Picard Maneuver

Could use improvement:

-Enemy Ship in "The Survivors" - always looked cheap

-Phaser from the photon tube in "Darmok"?

-"Conundrum" model re-use from "Justice"

-"BOBW" of course, duh

-"AGT" is great, but I never bought the scale of that spider-like spacedock

 

[Harvey]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I'd like it if they fixed the effects in "Timescape" so that they match the dialogue.

 

[Holdfast]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

To be honest, I'll be more than happy with a general sharpening of the image quality, especially in the first few seasons, and then redoing/updating any effects that look "off" as a result of the higher resolution. Otherwise leave them be.

If this project definitely goes ahead, they've gone a tonne of work ahead of them anywa; upgrading the picture quality is going to be really hard I think on some of the earlier seasons especially. The fuzziness is quite noticeable even in SD DVD format. No need to give themselves even more work beyond that.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

fix things like phasers firing from the torpedeo launcher in "Darmok"

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I wish they'd redo all the spaceship exterior shots using the original film elements instead of going CGI. Models provide the shots with a certain gravity and scale that just wasn't there with the TOS-R all-CGI Enterprise. However, I am 99.9% sure that this will remain wishful thinking.

So, I guess my wish is that they leave the shots the way they are, just make them better looking. Some things that definitely need to be redone are:

- A few more fly-by perspectives of the Enterprise.

- More realistic planets.

- Replacing the Excelsior-class ship with different vessels in that oft-repeated fly-alongside shot.

- New beam-in shots of planet surfaces. Should give the illusion that the surface of Vagra II (Skin of Evil) is no soundstage.

- New planetary establishing shots. They repeated the Angel One cityscape far too often (later even in DS9 and Voyager.)

I honestly feel that some CGI work when hastily done on movies or TV can be of irregular quality.... however there are examples in the 90s and many in the 2000s where the CGI work is fully up to reality. The spacecraft designs I've seen lately in movies look better, more solid and more realistic than ever to me. I think ST09 effortlessly made CGI look like real live models but with all the improvements that allow movement on a scale not achievable with motion control.

I know I may be in the slight minority here, but the Gabriel Koerner model is my favorite of all the Enterprise models real or CGI, even if its imperfect. I think it bodes well for any remastering project if they give it a few corrections and tweaks.

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

12. Datalore: Recreate that wonderful shot of the starscape in the teaser...wow. Obviously a whole new cgi entity will be made. I like the amorphous design from "Datalore" rather than the more distinct one from "Silicon Avatar".

16. When the Bough Breaks: Nothing major, but again I dislike the overused shot of the E-D in orbit facingthe planet, its not a good angle for the E-D.

18. Coming of Age: New orbital shots of the shuttle

19. Heart of Glory: Vorcha cruiser instead of the old K'Tinga. What a disappointment that was.

20. Arsenal of Freedom: Don't mind the design of the robot, but the planet surface could use some work.The sky was far too unrealistic.

22. SKin of Evil: That awful, awful Armus creature. ugh

24. Conspiracy: The stop motion is ok, but its not up to par with FX like Species 8472, and stuff we've seen in ST since. Alien looking aliens are something ST can do better.

25. Neutral Zone: I don't feel the Warbird was given movie scale detail. This is unfortunate, because the design is awesome. The Valdore was designed from scratch with movie detail.

http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/romulan/battlecruiser_valdore.jpg

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

19. Heart of Glory: Vorcha cruiser instead of the old K'Tinga. What a disappointment that was.

22. SKin of Evil: That awful, awful Armus creature. ugh

If they screw around with either of these they can cross me off the list of potential buyers. The point is to make it acceptable to view on a 1080p display not to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

All existing footage of Denise Crosby should be replaced with Katee Sackhoff.

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

19. Heart of Glory: Vorcha cruiser instead of the old K'Tinga. What a disappointment that was.

22. SKin of Evil: That awful, awful Armus creature. ugh

If they screw around with either of these they can cross me off the list of potential buyers. The point is to make it acceptable to view on a 1080p display not to reinvent the wheel.

If you look carefully, most of my changes are things they are going to have to do anyway, not much I suggest is additional. its all part of theregular workload. Examples: Orbital ship shots...as easy as doing a needed new effect, just changes the orientation. Armus, the design sucks, there is no way around it. The re-creators have the luxury of going to Probert's original creature design on paper to re-create it digitally. A ship is going to have to appear on the viewscreen for the Klingons...its as easy as inserting whatever ship they wish...in this case it makes far more sense in-universe to have a modern Klingon ship instead of a 100 yr old cruiser. Notice I resisted saying Negh'var!

RAMA

 

[Squiggy]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Just give me more than the 7 recycled Enterprise fx shots and I'll be happy.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Armus, the design sucks, there is no way around it. The re-creators have the luxury of going to Sternbach's original creature design on paper to re-create it digitally.

Why would they need to replace Armus with a CGI creature if they didn't have to? Armus wasn't a VFX shot that needs to be remastered for HD. He was a guy in a costume. (And I didn't the design "sucked" at all.)

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Armus, the design sucks, there is no way around it. The re-creators have the luxury of going to Sternbach's original creature design on paper to re-create it digitally.

Why would they need to replace Armus with a CGI creature if they didn't have to? Armus wasn't a VFX shot that needs to be remastered for HD. He was a guy in a costume. (And I didn't the design "sucked" at all.)

By all accounts the producers hated the Metamucil creature. I think one of the first things they'd sign up to change would be the Armus mechanical effect...which apparently never worked correctly.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

By all accounts the producers hated the Metamucil creature. I think one of the first things they'd sign up to change would be the Armus mechanical effect...which apparently never worked correctly.

My point isn't whether anyone hated it or not. The point is that if it's not a VFX effect that needs to be changed (or something that clearly did not work in its original format, which despite the mechanical problem you mentioned, didn't seem to have a problem in the final broadcast), why would they waste valuable time changing it if it wasn't really necessary for an HD broadcast?

 

[CaptainStoner]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

To be honest, I'll be more than happy with a general sharpening of the image quality, especially in the first few seasons, and then redoing/updating any effects that look "off" as a result of the higher resolution. Otherwise leave them be.

I a agree with that in many cases, although I am on the "more ship shots" bus. It would be so nice to see the D and other ships in unique shots for every episode.
I think there must be a common thread of model builders here - people who respect the original FX of any series and the dinosaurian art of model building for film.

I wish they'd redo all the spaceship exterior shots using the original film elements instead of going CGI. Models provide the shots with a certain gravity and scale that just wasn't there with the TOS-R all-CGI Enterprise. However, I am 99.9% sure that this will remain wishful thinking.

So, I guess my wish is that they leave the shots the way they are, just make them better looking. Some things that definitely need to be redone are:

- A few more fly-by perspectives of the Enterprise.

- More realistic planets.

- Replacing the Excelsior-class ship with different vessels in that oft-repeated fly-alongside shot.

- New beam-in shots of planet surfaces. Should give the illusion that the surface of Vagra II (Skin of Evil) is no soundstage.

- New planetary establishing shots. They repeated the Angel One cityscape far too often (later even in DS9 and Voyager.)

I honestly feel that some CGI work when hastily done on movies or TV can be of irregular quality.... however there are examples in the 90s and many in the 2000s where the CGI work is fully up to reality. The spacecraft designs I've seen lately in movies look better, more solid and more realistic than ever to me. I think ST09 effortlessly made CGI look like real live models but with all the improvements that allow movement on a scale not achievable with motion control.

I know I may be in the slight minority here, but the Gabriel Koerner model is my favorite of all the Enterprise models real or CGI, even if its imperfect. I think it bodes well for any remastering project if they give it a few corrections and tweaks.

I find some agreement here. I don't think CGI is necessarily going to look cold and dead. (And I wonder if there is something to the framerate with the TOS-R Enterprise. In some shots the movement just looks unnatural)
It can suffer from hyper-realism and cartoonishness which we saw with the SW prequels IMO ~
But as you say the texturing and particle effects and such are a lot better. Even on PC platforms the last generation or two of video cards has produced metallic and organic looking textures (especially on a CRT).

Just give me more than the 7 recycled Enterprise fx shots and I'll be happy.

Especially in latter seasons, with that closeup of the 4-foot model shown at nearly every break.

All existing footage of Denise Crosby should be replaced with Katee Sackhoff.

Also, the light metal theme for "Tin Man" should be put back in.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I agree with that in many cases, although I am on the "more ship shots" bus. It would be so nice to see the D and other ships in unique shots for every episode.

I think there must be a common thread of model builders here - people who respect the original FX of any series and the dinosaurian art of model building for film.

Exactly. When TNG premiered, the VFX department didn't re-use all those movie models like the Reliant, Grissom, Excelsior, BoP, K'Tinga (actually re-used footage, not re-use of the model), etc. because they wanted to. They had to re-use them out of necessity, as the producers of the show didn't want to spend more money on new ship models if the show ended up getting cancelled after the first season.

With TNG-R, that necessity goes away. I'm sure the scriptwriter for "The Naked Now" didn't envision the Tsiolkovsky specifically as a 75 year-old Grissom-type ship. He/she probably could have cared less what type of ship it was. So why reshoot the scene with a CGI Oberth when you now have the chance to be really creative and come up with new designs?