I'll decomission mine after you mothball yours.
Future of the Defiant (class) post Nemesis
- Thread starter Photon
- Start date
They would remain in limited production and be out to good use . Some of them would be assigned to section 31 and be used for espionage work. When Kirk surfaced at Veridian 3 one of them with an illegal Cloaking device would hve been used to extract Ambassador Spock from Romulus.
Voyager returned almost 5 years after First Contact with a host of kick-ass Borg specific weapons, and having destroyed the transwarp hub that led to the Federation's part of the galaxy. You could say that the Borg would be considered less of a threat, or at least a much more distant threat.
By the same token, it was very useful in the war against the Dominion. Threats keep popping up in the AQ. Best to be prepared.
Consider that in the wake of the Dominion War and NEM, the Federation faces the following security dillemmas:
1) The reconstruction of the Cardassian Union and all the chaos that rebuilding a shattered former dictatorship under foreign occupation entails
2) The breakup of Cardassia's empire as formerly conquored worlds like Bajor assert their independence
3) The fall of the Romulan government and the rise of the various factions competing for control of Romulus after Shinzon's death
4) The rise of the Remans as a political force that may be hostile to both the Romulans and the Federates
5) The fundamental problems of Federation reconstruction (resource allocation)
6) The continued presence of the Breen Confederacy
7) The potential for dangerous technologies and weapons from the Cardassians and Romulans to fall into the hands of minor, politically-unstable states, organized crime, and terrorist organizations
The refugee problems that these kinds of situations always entail9) The Klingon Empire's relative weakness leaving them vulnerable to foreign threats the Federation, as an ally, would be obligated to help protect them from
There is a strong, strong need for the Federation to maintain an adequate defense force -- which means keeping the Defiants. Anyone doesn't like it, they can go hang; it would be positively treasonous for the Federation government to take away such a strong defensive measure from a Federation facing so many security threats
i got the impression that the Defiant class was not something that was easy to build, and would be highly problematic to delopy in mass production. in fact, we've only seen five ships. think of her as the "Best of Both Worlds" the power of a Galaxy-class but with the compact size and manuverablity of a smaller ship. but to get these is an inefficient projuct that probably takes as many resources to build as a Galaxy class ship, even if it is smaller. also, the ship runs so far into the redline that it takes and expert crew to keep her together (remember the whole "almost tears herself apart at full power" line from "The Search?")
no, the Defiant will remain an "Ace in the Hole" ship, for use in tough spots where no other ship is quick, agile, and strong enough to do.
if anything gets mass produced as a patrol ship, Starfleet would go with a new design that takes lessons learned from the Defiant, and makes an easier to build and opperate ship, albeit not as powerful.
no, the Defiant will remain an "Ace in the Hole" ship, for use in tough spots where no other ship is quick, agile, and strong enough to do.
if anything gets mass produced as a patrol ship, Starfleet would go with a new design that takes lessons learned from the Defiant, and makes an easier to build and opperate ship, albeit not as powerful.
Yeah, but you have to remember that a lot of the technical problems with the design have been solved since then. The Valiant was the only other vessel to have design problems (not being able to go above warp 3 after being trapped behind enemy lines.)
The DS9 Tech Manual suggested that in its original form, that is the USS Defiant as she was first built before being sent to DS9, only six more vessels could have been built. That probably would not be the case now, after the Defiant's successful service and the advances made in conflicts with the Borg and the Dominion.
I kind of wish the cloak was standard equipment, because the "no cloaks for Starfleet" rule has never made much sense given how we've usually seen them used - as the Trek equivalent of modern stealth systems. The only reason the ban exists is because Gene didn't want the good guys to be "sneaky."
The DS9 Tech Manual suggested that in its original form, that is the USS Defiant as she was first built before being sent to DS9, only six more vessels could have been built. That probably would not be the case now, after the Defiant's successful service and the advances made in conflicts with the Borg and the Dominion.
I kind of wish the cloak was standard equipment, because the "no cloaks for Starfleet" rule has never made much sense given how we've usually seen them used - as the Trek equivalent of modern stealth systems. The only reason the ban exists is because Gene didn't want the good guys to be "sneaky."
One argument for the Treaty of Algernon might have been simply to keep things civil between the Federation and the Romulans. Aside from the Pegasus Incident, had the Federation gone ahead and equipped all their ships with cloaking technology, that might have made the current situation with the Romulans even worse. As it stands, the Romulans still honor the Neutral Zone. If the Federation had cloaked ships, that might have given the Romulans an excuse to turn a cold war into a hot one.
The Pegasus Incident could have made things ugly with the Romulans, but a confrontation may have been averted if the Federation made a full disclosure of Admiral Pressman's illegal activities. In hindsight, the Pegasus Incident could ironically have shown the Romulans that the Federation could be trusted to honor agreements and something that helped convince them to loan a cloaking device aboard the Defiant.
It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I agree. The NZ has nothing to do with the technology possessed by the two governments; it exists as a means of keeping the peace after the war between Earth and Romulus. The Treaty of Algeron was signed after the Tomed Incident in 2311, and no doubt contains other provisions besides the "no cloak" rule. We just haven't been privy to those unfortunately, making the treaty seem lopsided. The notion that the good guys shouldn't use stealth technology because they would seem "sneaky" is like saying the U.S. shouldn't have defensive nuclear weapons, because we're supposed to be a democratic republic.
Besides, the creation of the Fed-Klingon alliance has given them a convenient bypass around the restriction. The Romulans are powerless (short of war) to stop the Feds from hitching rides on cloaked Klingon vessels, as we saw several times. And we saw in TNG that after the Romulan isolation ended, they launched several incursions into Federation space because they felt threatened by the new balance of power.
In the end, I just don't see Fed use of cloaks as a huge deal to the Romulans. They're already more knowledgable about the technology than the Feds, and perhaps the Klingons are, and the limitations of the technology still prevent it from being a wonder weapon.
I think after the Dominion war mop-up the Defiants would be mothballed.
It would take a few years to repair the most dire damage the Dominionm War dealt and get new crews from Starfleet so having big Starships that require hundreds of people are not very economic in this stage.
Starfleet and thus the Federation would need to secure its borders fast so that no one gets the idea to take advantage of a depleted Starfleet and the Defiants can easily fill these holes.
Now that the Romulans are sorting themselves out (i believe to the better judging by the stance of the real Romulan military helping Picard defeat Shinzon), the Cardassians taken down a few notches as well as the Breen and the Klingons equally weakened i don't see some major power challenging the Federation in earnest.
When all this is done after a few years (5-10 maybe) i can see Starfleet return to its original role of exploration, diplomacy etc and a ship with the sole purpose of combat doesn't fit that profile and would send a wrong message.
However i doubt the Federation would be so dumb again to be caught pants down and they would decomission them in a way that they can be quickly reactivated, updated and crewed should they get into combat again.
They could hold the line until the whole Federation and Starfleet is mobilized properly.
It would take a few years to repair the most dire damage the Dominionm War dealt and get new crews from Starfleet so having big Starships that require hundreds of people are not very economic in this stage.
Starfleet and thus the Federation would need to secure its borders fast so that no one gets the idea to take advantage of a depleted Starfleet and the Defiants can easily fill these holes.
Now that the Romulans are sorting themselves out (i believe to the better judging by the stance of the real Romulan military helping Picard defeat Shinzon), the Cardassians taken down a few notches as well as the Breen and the Klingons equally weakened i don't see some major power challenging the Federation in earnest.
When all this is done after a few years (5-10 maybe) i can see Starfleet return to its original role of exploration, diplomacy etc and a ship with the sole purpose of combat doesn't fit that profile and would send a wrong message.
However i doubt the Federation would be so dumb again to be caught pants down and they would decomission them in a way that they can be quickly reactivated, updated and crewed should they get into combat again.
They could hold the line until the whole Federation and Starfleet is mobilized properly.
IMO, if the Federation had cloaking tech, the Romulans would be less bound to honor the Neutral Zone because they would see the Federation as a threat perhaps even bigger than that of the Klingons. I think the Romulans would cross the Neutral Zone in a heartbeat if that was the case.
Interestingly, I would see it as the reverse of the U.S.' nuclear non-proliferation act. Instead of us telling another country they can't have this tech, another country has told us we can't have this tech. We're all "the good guys" in our own eyes, but not everyone sees things that way.
I think the non-use of cloaking devices was really just developed to reinforce the peace with the Romulans, IMO. The Romulans wouldn't like it if the Federation equipped all its ships with cloaks, and to possibly prevent another round of war, the Federation made this concession. As Admiral Pressman demonstrated, not everyone thought it was a wise idea because it without question enables the Romulans to maintain a notable tactical advantage over the Federation.
But isn't that just more of the same games of brinksmanship that the Federation and the Romulans have been playing since 2267? There's always been minor violations of the Neutral Zone--heck, Kirk blatantly invaded Romulan space on a secret mission to steal a cloaking device--but I think the important thing is that the two sides have still never gone to a full-out war. In hindsight, the Romulans have done a better job honoring its treaty with the Federation than the Klingons did (although the Dominion was partially responsible for the brief dissolution of the Khitomer Accords).
Well, maybe. I think the Federation having cloaking technology is somewhat important to the Romulans--the provision is still that the Defiant is the only ship to have a cloak. Regardless of what the Romulans think of the Federation, I do think they trust the Federation to honor its agreements though, and that has what has primarily kept the peace between them for so long...
I could see Defiant being relegated to quieter patrol duties where there are fewer ships and like others have said for dealing with unfriendlies attacking convoys ect. Starfleet could find away to keep usefull ships in service, most people think of them as an 'escort' class instead of a warship (nice distinction).
I could also see a number being kept at key starbases, especially Earths, for defence purposes. These ships would be kept up to date and have crews regularly train with them (think of this similar to the way they run a CAP on NuBSG)
Starfleet Academy could also be a use for a post war Defiant, albiet a stripped down training version so no Cadets decide to take on big threats on their own :d .
Its possible they could also refit some ships with greater scientific facilities for short term research where the Oberth class might have been a choice.
Small ship and so easy to build coupled with a small crew requirement there would be a good demand for these for bases, research projects ect
I could also see a number being kept at key starbases, especially Earths, for defence purposes. These ships would be kept up to date and have crews regularly train with them (think of this similar to the way they run a CAP on NuBSG)
Starfleet Academy could also be a use for a post war Defiant, albiet a stripped down training version so no Cadets decide to take on big threats on their own :d .
Its possible they could also refit some ships with greater scientific facilities for short term research where the Oberth class might have been a choice.
Small ship and so easy to build coupled with a small crew requirement there would be a good demand for these for bases, research projects ect
Why? We've seen that the Klingons, the Breen and other races have cloaking tech and seem to use it to a fairly regular degree; the Romulans may have a lot of skill and some superiority with this technology, but it's hardly unique to them. This is another reason I don't see it as a huge deal. The fact that the Feds have developed reasonable countermeasures like the tachyon defense grids and can thus spot cloaked ships easily is another support. That to me would seem like a far larger threat in Romulan eyes, since it nullifies the advantage of the cloak.
I agree. You see my point though - just because another country doesn't want us to have nukes doesn't mean we would give them up easily. There would have to be a very powerful reason for us to do that.
I agree, it's a plot device. Since the Tomed Incident did not lead to a full scale war, it's difficult to judge how serious the military threat was. The Romulans withdrew because of the Borg threat to their NZ outposts, and probably because they would have had to fight the Klingons as well - and they didn't want a two-front war.
That is true, but it does seem as if the Romulans have been responsible for more breaches than the Feds have. Several of the TNG incidents could have easily led to war, and luckily it was averted. To me, the efforts of Picard and other captains to avoid war says more about the Federation's willingness to honor the peace than the lack of cloaks.
But we're talking specifically about the Federation and the Romulans. Every galactic power out there could have cloaking technology, but as long as we're dealing specifically with Federation-Romulan relations, it doesn't matter who else has the tech. As I said before, I think the use of non-cloaking tech was likely a means to placate the Romulans. Sure, it places the Federation at a severe tactical disadvantage to other nations that have cloaking tech--that's undeniable--but the alternative might have been a repeat of the Romulan Wars of the 22nd-Century, and the Federation may have been desperate to avoid that at all costs.
It's not a perfect scenario, but I think it's a plausible one.
And why wouldn't the Romulans simply improve upon the cloak each time the Federation found a means to detect it? Even with the tenuous peace between the Federation and the Romulans, there is still something of a cold war brewing between them. I would think that the Romulans would be constantly trying to stay ahead of the Federation's ability to detect cloaked vessels.
The U.N. uses the threat of economic sanctions, but I think in Trek it would be the threat of another war with the Romulans.
Perhaps the Treaty of Algernon was borne out of desperation following the Tomed Incident. Relations between the Federation and the Romulans might have been on the brink during that time and war was averted only by the Federation making a number of major concessions--such as the use of cloaking tech.
Well, Picard did willingly violate the Neutral Zone more than a few times--even once infiltrating Romulus itself--but I see where you're coming from. Personally, I think the number of violations on either side is almost even, but that's just my opinion. Still, the Romulans are sneaky and not to be trusted...
I think it's always going to go back and forth between the Federation and the Romulans, but as long as one doesn't get too far ahead of the other, a sort of uneasy peace can be maintained (the occasional minor skirmishes aside).
Still, it's true that there are those in the Federation who do believe that the Romulans got the better deal with the Treaty of Algernon, but then I think it's good to show that the Federation can't win them all though...
Possibly. Without knowing more about the Earth-Romulan War in the 22nd century, it's hard for me to say.
I think both options are likely, which would seem to me like a significant problem if the Romulans are concerned specifically about the Feds having cloaking tech.
That's certainly possible. It is also possible that the technology for countering cloaks coupled with the occasional use of cloaked Klingon vessels under the alliance offsets the provision banning the production of cloaks in the Federation, and this is one reason why it was accepted as part of the treaty. It would not seem as great a handicap as it would without these counter-advantages.
I will admit personally I still wish the no-cloak rule was omitted, as I tend to consider it somewhat silly.
"A handful of pocket battleships?" The Defiants were all over the place during the Dominion War and the years afterwards. We were seeing them all the time on DS9 and VOY. They'd become a very common sight, and were clearly starting to form a major line of defense within Starfleet; clearly, losing the Defiants would be a major blow to the Federation's ability to defend itself.
And, yes, when you have a Federation facing that many security issues, a distribution of resources away from defense becomes incredibly foolish, especially since we've seen that more combat-oriented ships like the Defiants and the Sovereigns are better able to handle those threats than the more exploration-oriented ships like the Galaxys and the Nebulas.
I'm not arguing that there isn't a place for exploratory/scientific missions, nor even that those missions shouldn't get equal resource priority with defensive warships like the Defiants. But resources shouldn't be drawn away from them, either, and defense should not be marginalized just because the most immediate threat of the Dominion is gone.
We saw exactly two ships help Picard defeat Shinzon -- and those ships were commanded by the same Imperial Fleet officers who helped install Shinzon into the Praetorship. I don't think that suggests at all what the Imperial Fleet is thinking as a whole; in fact, more logically, it suggests that the military is deeply divided over the question of who should assume Romulan leadership.
Look at real history; what tends to happen when illiberal governments are violently overthrown in coups (as opposed to a popular revolution)? Is there usually a peaceful transition of power and consensus on who ought to weild power -- or does the situation usually degenerate into factional conflict? Look at Iraq. The situation isn't an exact parallel, but it's quite similar; the authoritarian Hussein government is gone, but instead of a peaceful transition, the group that used to be oppressed by that government has engaged in violent conflict with their former oppressors, multiple political factions are competing rather ruthlessly for power, powerful local militias have formed, and the third group that was oppressed by both the other two is seeking independence.
The situation on Romulus is likely to be the same. Former senators and power-brokers competing with up-and-coming politicos for power in the restored government. The military is likely to be divided between these groups, and powerful admirals are likely to try to use the opportunity to seize as much power as they can and/or to influence the political situation. The Remans would also remain a constant threat to stability, since they're certainly not about to go back to being Romulus' dilithium slaves (and since they apparently had the resources necessary to build a fairly major warship thanks to Shinzon). Conquered worlds of the Empire would likely be agitating for independence. The economy would be devestated just because of the initial Shinzon coup, let alone everything else. (Remember, the Romulans aren't the Feds, to they would still have money.) And to top it off, there would be the constant danger of advanced Romulan technology falling into the hands of lesser political actors -- minor, politically unstable, and/or aggressive states, or terrorist/crime groups.
We're talking a huge nightmare, not the sort of scenerio where Romulus would just be able to quickly sort itself out. That kind of rosey scenerio is incredibly unrealistic, both in real life and in Trek terms.
And we have a lot of the same headaches with the Cardassians, to boot. You're talking the reconstruction of a devestated state with billions dead. You're talking the formation of a new government -- presumably democratic? -- by the occupying powers in the face of what seems to be centuries of unconstitutional illiberal autocracy. You're talking dealing with extreme Cardassian nationalism, which would almost certainly lead to the rise of violent rival factions competing for power. You're talking about a devestated economy. Who knows where the Cardassian military will place its loyalties (at least, what's left of it)? And, again, the potential for advanced technology to leak.
As with the Romulans, it's a security nightmare.
The Klingons were certainly weakened, but I'd suggest you go back and re-watch the Final Chapter arc. The Breen were not significantly weakened at all. Most of the fighting took place far away from their homeworld and Breen-claimed space, and they lost far fewer ships than any of the other states involved, because A) they weren't in the war as long, and B) they had an initially overwhelming tactical advantage. The Breen only stopped fighting because the Founder ordered it -- and we have no clue what the Allies did or did not do to the Breen Confederacy after the war. But their military infrastructure has clearly not been damaged to the extent that the Federation's, Romulans', Klingons', Cardassians', or Dominions' have been.
I do -- the Breen. The Dominion War put them on the map; they established themselves as an important quadrant power without suffering the concommitant losses of their allies, even if they did end up on the losing side of the war. And furthermore, with the weakening of the other major states (UFP, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians), there's the issue of the ascendency of the minor states to power. The Tholian Assembly and Gorn Hegemony, for instance, are probably in much more powerful positions relative to the Federation than they'd been before; with a depleted Starfleet, who's to say that they won't make a territory grab, for instance? And, like I've mentioned before, there's also the inevitable issue of the leaking of advanced technology from the major powers to non-state actors like the Orion Syndicate or terrorist groups.
And let's not forget that, from the Federation's POV, even post-"Endgame," there is always, always the question of the Borg.
I disagree completely. Defense is not something that's incompatible with peaceful intentions, and having a fleet of warships to defend yourself is not an aggressive thing -- so long as you're not sending those warships out to be your primary ships of exploration and diplomacy.
Will the Defiants be out there, exploring strange new worlds and seeking out new life and new civilizations? Probably not. But they ought to be on the Federation's borders, and located at Federation bases, and stationed at worlds where Federation forces are there as peacekeepers and/or occupiers, to make certain that the Federation is defended from the people threatening them.
Of course you want ships like the Galaxys to go out there and wave the flag and explore and make contact and conduct diplomacy. Just like you want the Novas to go out there and conduct research. But you also want the Defiants there to make sure you're safe.
Why demobilize them in the first place when you can keep them around?
