Yeah, "First Contact" doesn't really explain how Cochrane's warp drive works but leans heavily towards the TNG and later series' description. We know it has an intermix chamber, a warp core, a damaged warp plasma conduit and it leaked theta radiation from its damaged throttle assembly. The only thing the writers stopped short at was saying anything about dilithium crystals which, outside of TOS, was absolutely necessary for warp drive to work ("Peak Performance").
Fusion vs AM warp drives
- Thread starter Ronald Held
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If one is using antimatter for a power reaction, you need a way to direct that power to the warp nacelles to generate the warp field
But what one needs is a large amount of constant energy fed into those nacelles. High energy plasma seems to be what the design requires. How you get a high enough level of energy in that plasma, that is our current question. Without melting the nacelles or ship for that matter.
But what one needs is a large amount of constant energy fed into those nacelles. High energy plasma seems to be what the design requires. How you get a high enough level of energy in that plasma, that is our current question. Without melting the nacelles or ship for that matter.
Theta radiation only comes from m-am reactions?
Theta radiation apparently is part of background radiation but a high amount that can harm a life form suggests an artificial source. In Voyager episode "Night" there was a massive amount of theta radiation coming from antimatter waste being dumped by a Malon ship. The Voyager crew show the Malons that the theta radiation from the antimatter waste can be converted and re-used.
SEVEN: Long range sensors are detecting more theta radiation. Dangerously high levels.
TUVOK: Source?
SEVEN: Unknown.
...
CHAKOTAY: It's probably nothing. Just background theta radiation. But it could mean there's someone nearby.
JANEWAY: Distance?
CHAKOTAY: Approximately twenty five light years.
...
JANEWAY: Well it is now. You're using their space as a dumping ground for your antimatter waste.
...
JANEWAY: My people use antimatter as well, but we've found ways to purify the reactants so there's no toxic waste. We'll show you.
...
TORRES: The residual antimatter is then processed in the transkinetic chamber, where it's broken down on the subatomic level.
EMCK: What about the theta radiation?
TORRES: Oh, it's absorbed by a series of radiometric converters. We recycle the energy, use it to power everything from life support to replicators.
Speaking of Antimatter, BUSINESS INSIDER reporter Adam Barnes has a blurb in the Space section where Gerald Jackson (at Hbar Technologies) claims he designed an asymmetric proton collider capable of producing 20 grams of the stuff each year…using krypton-79 supposedly.
I might have one of FJ’s circular corridors be a tokamak…with TOS Enterprise’s impulse spine being a linear accelerator pointed towards the two vents for steering.
I might have one of FJ’s circular corridors be a tokamak…with TOS Enterprise’s impulse spine being a linear accelerator pointed towards the two vents for steering.
Ah, the real reason the TOS E saucer has an undercut.
Is there a link for this?
Personally I like the idea of the Phoenix being a simpler fission/fusion system, and later ships pre-Enterprise being of similar in design. However, the context seems to indicate that the intent was that it was a TNG-type M/AM reactor in there. I seem to recall reading an explanation that dilithium was mined from the asteroid belt before the war.
What canon references indicate that humans had access to Dilithium pre FC?
maybe split the difference. fusion based warp core.. but it used small amounts of antimatter to catalyze the fusion reaction.
which would also help explain why they were only able to sustain the warp trip for a second or so (as they came out well within lunar orbit, after starting in low earth orbit), they were using a 'pulsed fusion' reactor design and only had enough plasma produced to run the warp coils for a brief time.
I was under the impression that starships use a combination of fusion and M/AM.
Ds9 had 3 large fusion reactors for example, but not M/AM reactors... I would imagine that if SF was able to upgrade those so that DS9 was able to power a plethora of powerful phasers and shields which can fend off over 50 ships, it stands to reason fusion has been improved quite a bit and that M/AM is mainly used for Warp (but as we saw, its also used to power replicators onboard and other systems when necessary).
So, Earth never really transitioned from one to the other... they kept using both and improving them at the same time.
The Phoenix was a different thing though... it was meant as a way to test out Warp drive (relatively short flight duration)... so while its likely it never used Dilithium, it is probable that it used an advanced form of fusion which was advanced into an early prototype for a Warp core. Dilithium came later on as a way to stabilize/regulate antimatter reactions.
Ds9 had 3 large fusion reactors for example, but not M/AM reactors... I would imagine that if SF was able to upgrade those so that DS9 was able to power a plethora of powerful phasers and shields which can fend off over 50 ships, it stands to reason fusion has been improved quite a bit and that M/AM is mainly used for Warp (but as we saw, its also used to power replicators onboard and other systems when necessary).
So, Earth never really transitioned from one to the other... they kept using both and improving them at the same time.
The Phoenix was a different thing though... it was meant as a way to test out Warp drive (relatively short flight duration)... so while its likely it never used Dilithium, it is probable that it used an advanced form of fusion which was advanced into an early prototype for a Warp core. Dilithium came later on as a way to stabilize/regulate antimatter reactions.
True. Fusion is primarily for STL & AUX Power, M/A-M is for FTL & Primary Power
But DS9's Fusion Reactors are several size orders larger than the typical Fusion Reactors we see on StarShips.
The main issue with Fusion Reactors is the need to scale the containment vessel to produce the energy output necessary.
On a Space Station that doesn't move, you can easily scale up the reactor size as needed and generally be ok.
If you're moving FTL, than that Fusion Reactor size affects the housing of your vessel and it's support structure, which affects the size of the Warp Bubble necessary & affects the mass that you have to move at STL.
M/A-M reactors are rather slim when you look at it's profile and is linear, so it's easy to figure out how to place it in a vessel.
From my understanding, they developed both technology lines simultaneously, and realized one was better to use for StarShips, the other was better to use for stationary platforms.
I highly doubt Zeffram Cochrane had access to Dilithium or they even knew how to make a working M/A-M reactor at the time.
It was probably Fusion power that got him to his first Warp flight.
Well, Fusion can get you a long ways, and if you think of Warp, how energy intensive a feat of Bending Space and Time, you need some energy.
I do wish they would Cannonize Starfleet Musiem's take on it, where early ships were Fusion powered, and therefore limited in range and speed because there just wasn't enough power produced.
The Pheonix could have had a Fusion drive for power and initial thrust, but used a crude M/AM reactor that had minimal AM to power the warp drive, a quick hop.
I do wish they would Cannonize Starfleet Musiem's take on it, where early ships were Fusion powered, and therefore limited in range and speed because there just wasn't enough power produced.
The Pheonix could have had a Fusion drive for power and initial thrust, but used a crude M/AM reactor that had minimal AM to power the warp drive, a quick hop.
The impression I get from onscreen Trek is that fusion is fine as a power source, so long as you aren't going far. M/AM reactions seem to produce a LOT of power and by the TNG era and beyond, a LOT of power seems to be what is required to propel a ship to high warp. Fusion may have worked fine for sub-light and older warp power when speeds were slower.
We see a few instances of vehicles moving a short distance under fusion power; DS9 herself used fusion power (powering her thrusters and subspace bubble) to relocate to the mouth of the wormhole in "Emissary." DS9 was far from working order at the time, so who is to say how far a fully functional DS9 could have moved? Not outside of the system, of course, but my point is I'm unclear from the episode how much of the difficulty in moving her was "this station is falling apart" versus "this is a STATION not a STARSHIP." Indeed, per "Star Trek: Picard" the old Spacedock was moved from the Sol System to Athan Prime with the assistance of warp tugs of some kind. No doubt, these tugs were powered by M/AM reactions.
I also get the distinct impression that fusion is considered a safer technology than M/AM reactors, which may be why stationary facilies like DS9 that don't need to move at warp use simple fusion rather than M/AM power.
We see a few instances of vehicles moving a short distance under fusion power; DS9 herself used fusion power (powering her thrusters and subspace bubble) to relocate to the mouth of the wormhole in "Emissary." DS9 was far from working order at the time, so who is to say how far a fully functional DS9 could have moved? Not outside of the system, of course, but my point is I'm unclear from the episode how much of the difficulty in moving her was "this station is falling apart" versus "this is a STATION not a STARSHIP." Indeed, per "Star Trek: Picard" the old Spacedock was moved from the Sol System to Athan Prime with the assistance of warp tugs of some kind. No doubt, these tugs were powered by M/AM reactions.
I also get the distinct impression that fusion is considered a safer technology than M/AM reactors, which may be why stationary facilies like DS9 that don't need to move at warp use simple fusion rather than M/AM power.
Maybe Cochrane did not have a M-AM reactor, perse. Just a crude chamber for a single burst of matter antimatter reactants?
In Balance of Terror, Scotty is asked if the Enterprise can engage / overtake the Romulan Bird of Prey, to which his reply is, "No question. Their power is simple impulse." As stated, power ≠ propulsion. I take that to mean (in my own personal head canon at least) that the Bird of Prey had impulse powered warp drive. Not very fast or maneuverable compared to a M/AM powered warp-driven starship like the Enterprise. Further, although Andy Probert seems to have indicated that the Warp Drive Sled for the Vulcan envoy shuttle in TMP was M/AM powered, there are no clear elements to indicate that in the blues by David Kimble- the sled does have readily apparent impulse engines at the rear of the warp nacelles. My two cents.
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that Vulcan nacelles had both…in TOS, one ship damaged by M-5 could maneuver with warp power.
In terms of warp drives
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/why-warp-drives-are-about-to-get-better
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2404.03095.pdf
In terms of warp drives
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/why-warp-drives-are-about-to-get-better
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2404.03095.pdf
It didn't appear to be a single burst but rather continuous usage. Once the drive was "engaged" the warp field was active at their starting speed (20,000 Km/s) well before they broke the "warp barrier/warp threshold" and they could choose when to throttle back.
That was in "The Ultimate Computer" and the dialogue does not mention "power".
SPOCK: Hit in engineering section. Possible damage to her impulse engines. She's still maneuverable on warp drive.
TOS isn't a very good reference for "First Contact" because TNG had already redefined how warp works, IMHO. The movie kept some details vague but it leaned toward a TNG-style M/AM dilithium-regulated core. YMMV.
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