Fury Stupidity

[exodus]

That is indeed a good interpretation by exodus, I agree. Unfortunately, the intent of an episode just doesn't always come across to me. It's likely mostly my fault for being somewhat of shallow viewer I guess.

Braga can explain to me all day about his good intentions and logic behind Threshold, but it doesn't make me enjoy it any more.

I guess I'll always feel that if they were going to bring Kes back, that they could have done something a little more enjoyable with it.

I understand where you're coming from on this.

I think the part that throws the ep. off, is the time travel aspect of it. You're too engaged in trying to figure out why she's going back in time to save herself to go back and recall that she's old and to watch her facial expressions. Then to associate it with what they've told us about the Mor-Eloguim from "Elogium" & "Before & After".

Some how Braga expected the audience to remember those details from over 3 years ago. Go figure? It's not until you go back and watch Voyager again consecutively, that you pick up on it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Just finished rewatching the episode.

Kes didn't forget Tom's name.

She was pretending to treat him like they barely knew each other, since at that point they were not yet bosom buddies and almost lovers, hell according to Tom by that point, he was still loathed as a traitor to the marquis and murderer of academy cadets by the starfleet crew, so it's not like he had any friends at all yet except Harry who didn't know no better than to not hang out with a bad crowd.

The episode is called Fury. She wasn't that angry. I suppose in Greek history the Furies were these women who could see the future who's job it was to execute people who murdered their children... Which almost tracks.

She already went back to Ocampa whereafter they rejected her and said bugger off, which ruins my starved to death theory.

kes' argument for Janeway corrupting her youth holds water almost in the same way that a child (A 17 year old can be a child.) can't consent to statutory rape no matter how much they might think they love the person abusing them, Kes was too young not to be seduced by Janeway's patter, much like 12 year olds can't walk into a recruitment centre and ask to be shipped over to Iraq nno matter how much they like to play soldier... But it was quite weird to then continue on with that almost accurate accusationation to insist it was Janeways fault that she couldn't apotheosize well enough that it was Janeway's fault for pushing her into a failed godhood... Girl has to take responsibility at some point no? The decisions she made when she was 1 was clear prime directive territory: cultural contamination, but it's a can of worms after the fact to keep citing Janeway as the root of all her bad decisions after building up an immunity to Kathy's charisma for another 1/4 of a regular Ocampans lifetime.

Between the failed ascendency and the rejection by her people, that might make her hysterically defensive and misdirect blame due to emotional trauma, so I'm leaning away from the dementia (even though it's just a different type of crazy.) idea even though we saw in before and after saw that the outward affectation of Ocampan ageing does happen in spasms. That Kes is not going to look like she did in the opening scenes of Fury till her final days when she is supposed to be a little potty. Hells she could have already travelled though time from a later date that this could be 15 year old kes, or 25 year old Kes if she can only hop in 5 year leaps through time.

That and losing the lung was going to take a huge fraction off her life expectancy, so, Kes was NEVER going to make it to nine unless someone gave her another Lung, but then dying of having less anatomy than required is not the same as dying of old age unless everything has to work harder to make up for the fewer lungs and wares out faster?

Oh.

And we don't know which time line is the one we had been watching all these years, and if the next episode didn't start off in a fresh timeline divorced of all this crap, that kes' life might have been very different from what we had seen that Janeway may have actually deserved a little of the vengeance piled on her?

 

[exodus]

it's altogether possible that Energy beings do age, consdering that Tannis from Coldfire must have spent a great deal of his time noncoporial but only claimed, if he lived as long as his father to only live a little longer than Kes at the final tally. it's even possible that if somethign inexplicable happens to an energy being that they could "age" or at least progress towards death, maybe exhibit some sort of accelerated half life much faster than than their corporial for would manifest.

Then of course considering Kes's control of her atomic, her sub atomic and beyond her subatomic structure, it's possible that if a villain made her think (Super-hypnosis?) that she was older and getting older that she would in fact "become" what she believes herself to be.

Something similar was done to Doctor Doom when he acquired the Beyonders abilities in the first Secret War.

Exactly!

Tanis also told her that Ocampia's mental energy can feed off lifeforce. She showed it when she enhanced the flowers & then burned them up in "Coldfire". It's possable Kes is feeding off herself to keep her powers in check.


....or the simplest reason is: Stress.
Kes alone for 3 years, by herself in the Delta Quad. w/ powers she could barely understand or control. She'd either been seen as a weapon or a target.

..and third.

Kes said in "Coldfire" when Tanis told her his age: "...but the oldest Ocampian only lived to be 9." Implying not all Ocampians live a full 9 years. Makes sense, how many humans live a full reported life span? So Kes could be just as old looking as she should be.

 

[exodus]

Just finished rewatching the episode.

Kes didn't forget Tom's name.

She was pretending to treat him like they barely knew each other, since at that point they were not yet bosom buddies and almost lovers, hell according to Tom by that point, he was still loathed as a traitor to the marquis and murderer of academy cadets by the starfleet crew, so it's not like he had any friends at all yet except Harry who didn't know no better than to not hang out with a bad crowd.

I'm not so sure but I could be wrong.....

Doesn't the events in "Fury" happen after "Twisted", in which Tom is already flirting with Kes for her affections?

I think you missed: How did Kes forget making the recording of herself knowing she would have dementia?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yeah, forgetting making the recording is a big argument towards dementia or some other mental illness or even concussion. What gives a god concussion? OH! Temporal Ephasia?

Twisted (and kes' 2nd birthday party) is either in the beginning of season two or the end of season one depending on how you count voyager, meanwhile 56 days into the mission might be misleading, but i always it to account that it's at some point around episode 5 since janeway had to have met the Vidiians once but not twice, so between faces and phage... no idea why I made that decision so long ago... maybe right after faces would make more sense?

But to say that Fury happened after Twisted would be to say that the first 20 or so episodes happened in their first 3 months.

 

[exodus]

Yeah, forgetting making the recording is a big argument towards dementia or some other mental illness or even concussion. What gives a god concussion? OH! Temporal Ephasia?

Twisted (and kes' 2nd birthday party) is either in the beginning of season two or the end of season one depending on how you count voyager, meanwhile 56 days into the mission might be misleading, but i always it to account that it's at some point around episode 5 since janeway had to have met the Vidiians once but not twice, so between faces and phage... no idea why I made that decision so long ago... maybe right after faces would make more sense?

But to say that Fury happened after Twisted would be to say that the first 20 or s episodes happened in their first 3 months.

Is 6 months fair enough?

Janeway says in "Learning Curve" they been lost about 6 months.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Fury is set on the missions 56th day. Kes asked the computer nd that's what "she" replied.

Considernig that caretaker spent three days raping them while they slept, and it took them an over night trip to stroll to Ocampa from the array, that leaves 52 days till the events in fury.

Oh. That's less than 2 months.

Why did I think months were only 20 days long?

AHHH!

Q wasn't asking a question, did you see a question mark, and he wasn't speaking in generalities about her species either...

QUINN: In a manner of speaking. And you, all of you, you're mortals, aren't you?
JANEWAY: Who was holding you prisoner?
QUINN: And you only live nine years.
KES: That's right.
QUINN: Oh how I envy you.

He can see though time and matter and energy. Q knew exactly how long Kes was going to live for down tot he picosecond. He totally had her number and it was Nine.

 

[exodus]

^^So far, Q was wrong about the "All Good Things.." future.

He never saw greatness in Wesley either.

 

[Praxius]

that was Kes at full power at the height of her power and we don't know what sort of hangover that task effected on her the next morning. The woman before us in Fury is hardly the same person. dark kes in her twilight years might not be able to manifest so much as a dribble compared to her salad days which is why she needed to eat voyagers warp core for a top up before the time jump.

i haven't seen the episode in awhile, but I'm quite sure the end had her flying off into the "horizon" (starfield?) like the end of a cowboy movie or an episode of Lucky Luke.

Even if her superfastspacedrive was biological rather than Technological, janeway could have still "asked" for another 10 thousand light years knocked of their trip like Kes awarded them in the Gift.

What does it hurt to ask?

Politely begging/requesting is hardly like putting a saddle on her back and a bit in her mouth like Ransom would have, which it was probably within Janeway's power to do so... Actually if Kes was weak enough to be captured, then she wouldn't have been strong enough to use.

That's another thing.... when Janeway and crew saved Q and what he calls home, she had perfect opportunity to ask Q, or Q, or one of the other Q's to send them home..... a small price to ask for considering. In fact, Q offered to do this a couple of times, usually with some deal attached to the offer, but she never asked at that point.... she just smiled at his new son, waved and that was that.

Janeway sure did screw up a lot..... with Kes, Q and a few other people and findings, she passed up on some very obvious resources available at the time.

Most of the time, it seemed Janeway couldn't see beyond her own pride in certain situations, and the rest of the crew ended up paying for her short-comings.

At least Picard knew when to suck up his pride and ask for help and/or admit when he was wrong, especially around Q.... and usually because he did this, Q would grant his request or at least make things a little easier.

 

[exodus]

that was Kes at full power at the height of her power and we don't know what sort of hangover that task effected on her the next morning. The woman before us in Fury is hardly the same person. dark kes in her twilight years might not be able to manifest so much as a dribble compared to her salad days which is why she needed to eat voyagers warp core for a top up before the time jump.

i haven't seen the episode in awhile, but I'm quite sure the end had her flying off into the "horizon" (starfield?) like the end of a cowboy movie or an episode of Lucky Luke.

Even if her superfastspacedrive was biological rather than Technological, janeway could have still "asked" for another 10 thousand light years knocked of their trip like Kes awarded them in the Gift.

What does it hurt to ask?

Politely begging/requesting is hardly like putting a saddle on her back and a bit in her mouth like Ransom would have, which it was probably within Janeway's power to do so... Actually if Kes was weak enough to be captured, then she wouldn't have been strong enough to use.

That's another thing.... when Janeway and crew saved Q and what he calls home, she had perfect opportunity to ask Q, or Q, or one of the other Q's to send them home..... a small price to ask for considering. In fact, Q offered to do this a couple of times, usually with some deal attached to the offer, but she never asked.

Janeway sure did screw up a lot..... with Kes, Q and a few other people and findings, she passed up on some very obvious resources available at the time.

Most of the time, it seemed Janeway couldn't see beyond her own pride in certain situations, and the rest of the crew ended up paying for her short-comings.

At least Picard knew when to suck up his pride and ask for help and/or admit when he was wrong, especially around Q.... and usually because he did this, Q would grant his request or at least make things a little easier.

Yeah but making as deal with Q is like making a deal with Loki. He'll give you what you ask for but not exactly how you want it. Sure Q could send them to Earth, the catch would be it would the 1800's.

Q plays games for his own amusment.
He's also told Picard: "I do so because it pleases me too."
You can't trust someone like that, Janeway ain't stupid.
Guinan said: "Some Q are ALMOST respectable."
No Q can't be trusted.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Wow, Exodus has actually somewhat salvaged this rotten episode with that theory...never thought I'd see the day!

 

[Praxius]

I totally agree. The episode was crap, full of flaws and totally innecessary for the ongoing Voyager story.

Kes was the last person on that ship who would go crazy.

Tuvok went crazy a number of times... dealing with a load of power, very little guidance on controlling that power and isolation in space.... chances are she'd go nuts too.... nobody's perfect, no matter how powerful they are

And I wish to be spared from the "Alzheimers Theory" presented in this forum. It stands on very loose ground and there's enough ranting of it on another forum.

Kes didn't suffer from any Alzheimers. First of all, we don't know if the Ocampa have that disease.

Just because something is unknown, doesn't mean it's not possible and should be tossed aside.

Having something similar to such a disease would explain why they needed to make a recording of her at a younger age having to remind her of why things turned out the way they did and it was her own decision to leave.

Second, she was too young to catch that disease. The Ocampa only get similar symptoms in the last weeks of their lives and Kes was barely six years old, not nine.

The Ocampa who lived on the planet and never expanded their mental abilities, sure.... but there isn't much really known overall about what occurs in age with Ocampas who explore their abilities such as she did...... also, just because it's common to occur with older Ocampa near the end of their lives, doesn't mean cases like hers are impossible.

Third, energy-beings shouldn't age.

Shouldn't and Don't are two different things. Q's don't actually age, but Q's son "Grew" from an infant to a child, as we understand it. And when she was in physical form as the Kes we knew in the show, she's not exactly an energy being at that time, anymore then you and I are right now. It could be speculated that she can only be in a physical form for a period of time in her life and it becomes more difficult to remain in that form the older they become.... then eventually forced to remain an energy-being.

Fourth, Kes had no reason to hate Janeway and the others. She joined the crew of her own free will.

Which she had to be reminded of from the recording she made to herself.

Fifth, Kes loved her life on Voyager and her crewmates. She would rather have sacrificed herself than to harm any of them.

None of this matters when you have mental complications such as dementia or similar. You can have a husband or wife whom you married when you were both 17 or 18... loved each other and did everything for one another.... then when you're in your 80's or 90's, one of you becomes ill with dementia and start forgetting the basic things that make up who you are. One day, you can turn to your partner in bed, completely forget who they are, why they're in the same bed as you, and everything you both did together.... then you spaz out and attack or scream at them as if they're a robber or rapist or something.

You still remember how to walk, talk, breath, how to open a door, etc.... but certain memories are gone, either temporary or worse.

It does happen, it can happen.

Sixth, if she had such incredible powers, then she could have cured herself from any disease

That's more of an assumption. As shown in many ST episodes, lower developed alien species who find out about starfleet or the federation see their technology, think they're Gods or can do anything.... can cure all sorts of diseases and nothing is impossible.... but they don't understand that our abilities are only limited by what we know. For example, they can not bring people back from the dead who died a month or a year ago.

Just because she's more advanced and all-powerful, doesn't automatically mean she's capable of doing anything imaginable, or able to save/cure herself. Perhaps there are certain elements in how Ocampas are created (genetic structure) that limits certain things they can do.

Seventh, if she was in such a bad shape as it did seem, Janeway more and less committed a crime by allowing her to leave the ship on a journey which she would never survive.

Kes obviously wasn't a child, but was an adult, capable of making her own decisions and if she could fling voyager a bunch of light years with a thought, I'm sure she could make her way back just as fast.

It was not for Janeway to decide.

Eight, the creature we saw in "Fury" had no resemblance to the real Kes neither in looks nor in manners. Therefore it can't have been the real Kes but some being from another universe.

You sure are stretching logic and reason to try and suit some other explanation other then her suffering from some form of dementia.

The "alzheimers Theory" presented above is just another unconvincing attempt to justify the character destruction.

No offense, but it explains a lot more and makes a lot more logical sense then your reasons and explanations mentioned above.

As for the reasons to create that episode, those in charge either did it deliberately to insult the Kes fans or they were incredibly stupid. Did they really imagine that the fans of Kes would appreciate or accept that horrible episode?

I liked it.

 

[Udat]

Praxius Awesome post, great read, agree with everything!

 

[Praxius]

Yeah but making as deal with Q is like making a deal with Loki. He'll give you what you ask for but not exactly how you want it. Sure Q could send them to Earth, the catch would be it would the 1800's.

Q plays games for his own amusment.
He's also told Picard: "I do so because it pleases me too."
You can't trust someone like that, Janeway ain't stupid.
Guinan said: "Some Q are ALMOST respectable."
No Q can't be trusted.

Ah, that's how I first saw Q.. someone who couldn't be trusted, never took things seriously, always put others in danger and risk, everything was a game to him.

But I learned over the years from watching episodes from each series, is that Q is much more complicated then that and that his reasons for doing what he does goes a lot deeper then just his own amusement.

Everything Q did to Picard, everything he put the crew through.... even his short visit to DS9.... all of his games and tricks weren't just to see the rat go through the maze, they were to teach an important lesson, to test humanity, to see if humanity can take a step back, look at the bigger picture, and learn something profound, either for the species or the individual he's dealing with at the time.

And in just about every incident involving Picard or the Enterprise, when things seemed like it was all going to end & everybody was going to die, he'd toss out a lifeline, or shift something in the balance of favor for them to make it through.

Q on a few occasions hinted on what the Q Continuum thinks of Humanity's potential, even almost going as far as saying Humanity may reach the level of the Q as it goes for mental/physical evolution..... and in fact, at times, the Continuum learned some things from Humanity. He was also shown as being a bit of a Fan/Admirer of Humanity and it's almost as though he really cares about mankind.... but refuses to out right say so or express it and hides his true intentions/feelings with jokes and pranks.

He enjoys the fact that most of the universe hates his guts and think he's only out to ruin everybody's lives.... and appreciates those who can look past all that and see what he's really going for. That's why he continually hung around Picard..... not just because he could get Picards goat from time to time.... not just because Picard was one of the few decently intelligent humans that could figure out his puzzles..... but because at times, Picard could see past all the tricks and jokes and see Q's real intentions and why he does what he does.....

..... and even thank him for doing what he did at times.

One example of this would be the Episode where Q sent Picard back in time to when he lost his heart to learn what happens when we think it's wise to change our past mistakes.

There was always a lesson to be learned. Q just taught these lessons in an..... unorthodox manner.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh I agree Q was forcing them towards the right answers by putting his ass first like a stinky deterrent. The mice from the hitch-hikes guide did the same thing by running through mazes and dying of myxomatosis at just the right moment in a sort of reverse do-ology to control behaviour of "pets" who will always do the opposite of what you confirm is a good.

For a while there Exodus, it almost seemed like you were talking about Q when I was talking about Q.

 

[exodus]

Yeah but making as deal with Q is like making a deal with Loki. He'll give you what you ask for but not exactly how you want it. Sure Q could send them to Earth, the catch would be it would the 1800's.

Q plays games for his own amusment.
He's also told Picard: "I do so because it pleases me too."
You can't trust someone like that, Janeway ain't stupid.
Guinan said: "Some Q are ALMOST respectable."
No Q can't be trusted.

Ah, that's how I first saw Q.. someone who couldn't be trusted, never took things seriously, always put others in danger and risk, everything was a game to him.

But I learned over the years from watching episodes from each series, is that Q is much more complicated then that and that his reasons for doing what he does goes a lot deeper then just his own amusement.

Everything Q did to Picard, everything he put the crew through.... even his short visit to DS9.... all of his games and tricks weren't just to see the rat go through the maze, they were to teach an important lesson, to test humanity, to see if humanity can take a step back, look at the bigger picture, and learn something profound, either for the species or the individual he's dealing with at the time.

And in just about every incident involving Picard or the Enterprise, when things seemed like it was all going to end & everybody was going to die, he'd toss out a lifeline, or shift something in the balance of favor for them to make it through.

Q on a few occasions hinted on what the Q Continuum thinks of Humanity's potential, even almost going as far as saying Humanity may reach the level of the Q as it goes for mental/physical evolution..... and in fact, at times, the Continuum learned some things from Humanity. He was also shown as being a bit of a Fan/Admirer of Humanity and it's almost as though he really cares about mankind.... but refuses to out right say so or express it and hides his true intentions/feelings with jokes and pranks.

He enjoys the fact that most of the universe hates his guts and think he's only out to ruin everybody's lives.... and appreciates those who can look past all that and see what he's really going for. That's why he continually hung around Picard..... not just because he could get Picards goat from time to time.... not just because Picard was one of the few decently intelligent humans that could figure out his puzzles..... but because at times, Picard could see past all the tricks and jokes and see Q's real intentions and why he does what he does.....

..... and even thank him for doing what he did at times.

One example of this would be the Episode where Q sent Picard back in time to when he lost his heart to learn what happens when we think it's wise to change our past mistakes.

There was always a lesson to be learned. Q just taught these lessons in an..... unorthodox manner.

While I agree all that is true, Janeway herself doesn't know Q like that. I believe she sees him as we first did, as someone she can't completely trust.

However, I rather not get too far off topic debating the hows & whys of Q.

 

[Udat]

Come now Exodus you would love to go off topic about the how`s and why of Q!!!!

 

[exodus]

Come now Exodus you would love to go off topic about the how`s and why of Q!!!!

Does thou tempt me?

 

[Saquist]

That was a good explanation Exodus....fascinating...

 

[Lynx]

I can't understand why anyone would try to explain or defend that insulting, flawed piece of s**t that is "Fury".

A lot of people trash "Threshold" which at least was funny and had fewer flaws than "Fury" but I never seen anyone try to defend that episode with some weird explanations.

Had it been Picard, Kirk, Spock or some other "Star Trek saint" who had been ridiculed and destroyed the same way as they tried to destroy Kes, then it would have been an uproar among the fans of those characters.

But Kes isn't obviously worthy of being a Star Trek character. She can be destroyed and no one cares.

I still think that the "Alzheimers theory" sucks.