"Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

[Lynx]

I'm curious if the Ocampans on there homeworld were killed or enslaved by the Kazon by now. We know the Caretaker was stocking them up with 5 years worth of energy then was trying to seal all the holes at the same time the Voyager crew was trying to escape. Seems to me that the Kazon could have easily borrowed down to the ocampans once the energy shielding was depleted after a few years.

Good question.

Now that Kes is all super-powerful she should go back and protect her people. She should.. become the caretaker herself.

First of all, I don't think that the Ocampa were killed or enslaved by the Kazon.

As we all know, the Caretaker did stock them up with five years of energy and also sealed the holes which the Kazon could have used to get access to the underground city. According to the book "Caretaker" by LA. Graf (which is based on the script for the pilot episode) the Caretaker also downloaded all his knowledge to the Ocampa before he died. With that knowledge and all resources, I'm sure that the Ocampa did use all that to stay alive and develope, maybe constructing some weapons or starting to develope their powers again so that it would be impossible for the Kazon to attack them.

The lack of water which the Kazon was suffering from has made me believe that the Kazon-Ogla on the planet were unde a siege from some other Kazon sects, otherwise they would just have to take a ship and find the nearest block of ice to create water of, or to go to the nearest system in order to get water. So it's possible that they would have their hands full with fighting other sects as well.

Besides that, the Kazon had very little patience. They wouldn't sit around for five years or so, they would be bored and maybe leave long before that.

We can also assume that the Ocampa on the planet may get some help from their relatives on Suspiria's array after they've been told about the current situation by the Voyager crew.

As for Kes becoming the new Caretaker, I have to disagree.

Her "super-powers" were silly and unrealistic from the start. That mumbo-jumbo was used only to write her off as soon as possible and it was highly unrealistic. Besides that, Kes wanted to go with the Voyager crew to Earth. She wanted to learn and explore and had no intention to return to Ocampa.

Returning Kes to Ocampa would also definitely close all doors for a Kes come-back in upcoming books. No author would write any story about her life on Ocampa because it's too far away from Federation space where most of the action in the books are located.

In stead they should use the following scenario: Kes is turned into an energy-being, restored back to normal by Q or Suspiria, arrives to the Alpha Quadrant and becomes a prominent factor in upcoming Voyager books.

 

[exodus]

^^Why do you keep saying that?

Her mental abilities were explained from the very first episode and have been the focus of many stories envolving the character. How are they an excuse to get rid of her if they've always been a part of the character from the start?

Kes wanted to go to Earth at first but just like everybody on Voyager as well as everybody growing up, your goals and views about things change. Things about her were already starting to change even while on Voyager. She was becoming an impulsive teen-ager. Neelix for example went from being unsure of wanting a family of his own in "Elogium" to being willing to leave Voyager to having a real wife & child. Growing up and changing your points of view is human & a natural part of life. Watching these characters evolve is one of the main reasons many watch these shows, shouldn't Kes be allowed to grow up too?

Besides, Kes wasn't going to live long enough to have any type of life on Earth. Even if she did, she'd be too old and have no family to share it with. Worf & Odo tolerated being around humans but in the end they still longed for the fimilarity of their own kind, being away from her home for many years why wouldn't Kes want the same?

 

[Lynx]

^^
1. Her mental abilities became ridiculous in "The Gift". Before that, her mental abilities were basically the same for three seasons except for the events in "Cold Fire" when Tanis (maybe with some help from Suspiria) made her mental abilities increase. When Tanis was gone, her mental abilities went back to normal.

2. The characters on Voyager didn't evolve that much during those years. OK, Paris and Torres became a couple but they were basically the same so why should Kes turn out to be so different from the others.

She never expressed any real will to leave Voyager. There were two occasions when she was giving it a thought ("Cold Fire" and "Darkling") but in both cases, she decided to stay. In "Darkling" she told The Doctor that if there were going to be changes in her life, she wanted to have her friends around to rely on. The Voyager crew were her family.

3. There were possibilities to prolong Kes's lifespan.

4. Kes weren't like Worf or Odo. She she was a level-headed person who could easily adapt to new situations, something she did prove on Voyager. She was a born explorer who wanted to learn and explore. Therefore she wanted to go to Earth together with the others.

4. The Voyager books are incomplete without all the main characters. Both Kes and Neelix should be regular characters in those books.

 

[exodus]

^^She openly said in "Coldfire" she wasn't going to use her abilities anymore. Nothing went back to normal, she just stopped experimenting with them. Besides, why did she mention the "extraordinary mental abilities" Ocampans had several times in the series?

Even if Voyager was her family, children grow up and leave their families homes sometimes. The fact that she was thinking about leaving in "Coldfire" & "Darkling" is consistant to her leaving her Ocampan family to explore the outside world. It would hold that she might wish to leave her Voyager family to continue to explore other avenues.

I'm sure if writers wanted too write stories about either one of them they would. Honestly, if you want books written about Kes, there's nothing stopping you from seeking getting your own stories published.

Yes, I know you'll never take stock in any of what I just said because we clearly interpret what's said and shown about Kes very differently. I just feel the writers did what they could and wanted with her and I'm satisfied with the out come.

 

[Tom]

^^She openly said in "Coldfire" she wasn't going to use her abilities anymore. Nothing went back to normal, she just stopped experimenting with them.

I just watched Coldfire last week and when Tannis left she lost her super mental powers that she displayed in that episode, she was left with the basic mental powers that she had before the episode. Tuvok did mention that she probably still had them and may someday be able to develop them again but Kes mentioned she was afraid to try to deal with those powers so she would not hurt anyone.

 

[exodus]

^^She openly said in "Coldfire" she wasn't going to use her abilities anymore. Nothing went back to normal, she just stopped experimenting with them.

I just watched Coldfire last week and when Tannis left she lost her super mental powers that she displayed in that episode, she was left with the basic mental powers that she had before the episode. Tuvok did mention that she probably still had them and may someday be able to develop them again but Kes mentioned she was afraid to try to deal with those powers so she would not hurt anyone.

Thank you.

You'll notice in "The Gift" when she does use them again, she electrocutes Seven to stop her.

If you also notice in Tanis' speech to Kes in the hydroponics bay, everything he tells her about her powers & how she'll veiw others after getting them all came true in "Fury".

 

[Lynx]

^^She openly said in "Coldfire" she wasn't going to use her abilities anymore. Nothing went back to normal, she just stopped experimenting with them. Besides, why did she mention the "extraordinary mental abilities" Ocampans had several times in the series?

Even if Voyager was her family, children grow up and leave their families homes sometimes. The fact that she was thinking about leaving in "Coldfire" & "Darkling" is consistant to her leaving her Ocampan family to explore the outside world. It would hold that she might wish to leave her Voyager family to continue to explore other avenues.

I'm sure if writers wanted too write stories about either one of them they would. Honestly, if you want books written about Kes, there's nothing stopping you from seeking getting your own stories published.

Yes, I know you'll never take stock in any of what I just said because we clearly interpret what's said and shown about Kes very differently. I just feel the writers did what they could and wanted with her and I'm satisfied with the out come.

If you watch "Cold Fire" again, you will notice that Kes couldn't move the cup or make the tea boil in the endscene. She also explains that it didn't work after Tanis had left the ship. So it's obvious that she didn't have those powers anymore.

During the episodes in seasons 2 and 3 after "Cold Fire", Kes never attempted to develope her powers to the same level as they were when Tanis affected her so she probably didn't want to have such powers either.

There's no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". In "Cold Fire", Kes was manipulated by Tanis but showed strength, courage and willpower to withstand this temptation. In "Fury", we only saw a crazy pathetic idiot, so far away from the real Kes that it's doubtful that it could be the real Kes at all.

She did think about leaving Voyager in "Cold Fire" and "Darkling" but the point is that she decided to stay which I see as evidence that she wanted to stay on Voyager.

And even if she wanted to explore other avenues, she had no intention to go back to Ocampa. As she said in "Darkling", if there should be changes in her life, she wanted to experience thise with her friends.

I would also like to quote this sentence from the book "The Black Shore":

Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.

Sums it up pretty good!

As for books and getting stories published, well I get the impression that it's easier to break into Fort Knox than to have Star Trek stories published, at least for non-US citizens. But who knows.......

And no, I guess that we will continue to disagree on many things when it comes to Kes. As a fan of the character, I'm clearly dissatisfied with the outcome, especially with the horrible character destruction we saw in "Fury" which was rude, unnecessary for the continuing Voyager story and which I also consider downright insuting to the fans of the character.

 

[aussie grrl]

^^She openly said in "Coldfire" she wasn't going to use her abilities anymore. Nothing went back to normal, she just stopped experimenting with them. Besides, why did she mention the "extraordinary mental abilities" Ocampans had several times in the series?

Even if Voyager was her family, children grow up and leave their families homes sometimes. The fact that she was thinking about leaving in "Coldfire" & "Darkling" is consistant to her leaving her Ocampan family to explore the outside world. It would hold that she might wish to leave her Voyager family to continue to explore other avenues.

I'm sure if writers wanted too write stories about either one of them they would. Honestly, if you want books written about Kes, there's nothing stopping you from seeking getting your own stories published.

Yes, I know you'll never take stock in any of what I just said because we clearly interpret what's said and shown about Kes very differently. I just feel the writers did what they could and wanted with her and I'm satisfied with the out come.

If you watch "Cold Fire" again, you will notice that Kes couldn't move the cup or make the tea boil in the endscene. She also explains that it didn't work after Tanis had left the ship. So it's obvious that she didn't have those powers anymore.

During the episodes in seasons 2 and 3 after "Cold Fire", Kes never attempted to develope her powers to the same level as they were when Tanis affected her so she probably didn't want to have such powers either.

There's no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". In "Cold Fire", Kes was manipulated by Tanis but showed strength, courage and willpower to withstand this temptation. In "Fury", we only saw a crazy pathetic idiot, so far away from the real Kes that it's doubtful that it could be the real Kes at all.

She did think about leaving Voyager in "Cold Fire" and "Darkling" but the point is that she decided to stay which I see as evidence that she wanted to stay on Voyager.

And even if she wanted to explore other avenues, she had no intention to go back to Ocampa. As she said in "Darkling", if there should be changes in her life, she wanted to experience thise with her friends.

I would also like to quote this sentence from the book "The Black Shore":

Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.

Sums it up pretty good!

As for books and getting stories published, well I get the impression that it's easier to break into Fort Knox than to have Star Trek stories published, at least for non-US citizens. But who knows.......

And no, I guess that we will continue to disagree on many things when it comes to Kes. As a fan of the character, I'm clearly dissatisfied with the outcome, especially with the horrible character destruction we saw in "Fury" which was rude, unnecessary for the continuing Voyager story and which I also consider downright insuting to the fans of the character.

and Kate Mulgrew agrees with you, in one of her con appearance the question was asked, she didn't like Fury or what they did to Kes or Jennifer Lien either..
Heres an excert from the transcript:

Q: “How did the departure of Jennifer Lien affect you and the cast and what are your thoughts on Jennifer’s return in the episode “Fury”?”

Kate: “It was devastating when Jen left; she was an important part of our family and it was like loosing any member of your family. Whether she was happy about leaving or the way it was done, I don't know. I don't think she was happy, but what can you do. They did what they did for their own reasons, but it was a very difficult time. As for “Fury”, I didn't see where they were going with it, stirring up all those emotions, you know, I was like, well, you know, I didn't see the point. It was very hard to go back in there and do that, very difficult."

Q: Someone asked a question about Jennifer Lien attending a Convention in Sydney and not answering any questions and how disappointing her appearance was.

Kate: "Jennifer is a very shy person, she's very introverted and doesn't attend conventions very often, she's an incredible actress, she brings so much clarity to what she does on screen. I'm sure she did her best in answering questions, however, she is tremendously shy and that's probably what you were seeing. I have the utmost respect for her, it can be very difficult getting up here and talking to large crowds, some people handle it with grace and others... well, you know, if you’re not used to it can be terrifying."

 

[exodus]

^^She openly said in "Coldfire" she wasn't going to use her abilities anymore. Nothing went back to normal, she just stopped experimenting with them. Besides, why did she mention the "extraordinary mental abilities" Ocampans had several times in the series?

Even if Voyager was her family, children grow up and leave their families homes sometimes. The fact that she was thinking about leaving in "Coldfire" & "Darkling" is consistant to her leaving her Ocampan family to explore the outside world. It would hold that she might wish to leave her Voyager family to continue to explore other avenues.

I'm sure if writers wanted too write stories about either one of them they would. Honestly, if you want books written about Kes, there's nothing stopping you from seeking getting your own stories published.

Yes, I know you'll never take stock in any of what I just said because we clearly interpret what's said and shown about Kes very differently. I just feel the writers did what they could and wanted with her and I'm satisfied with the out come.

If you watch "Cold Fire" again, you will notice that Kes couldn't move the cup or make the tea boil in the endscene. She also explains that it didn't work after Tanis had left the ship. So it's obvious that she didn't have those powers anymore.

During the episodes in seasons 2 and 3 after "Cold Fire", Kes never attempted to develope her powers to the same level as they were when Tanis affected her so she probably didn't want to have such powers either.

There's no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". In "Cold Fire", Kes was manipulated by Tanis but showed strength, courage and willpower to withstand this temptation. In "Fury", we only saw a crazy pathetic idiot, so far away from the real Kes that it's doubtful that it could be the real Kes at all.

She did think about leaving Voyager in "Cold Fire" and "Darkling" but the point is that she decided to stay which I see as evidence that she wanted to stay on Voyager.

And even if she wanted to explore other avenues, she had no intention to go back to Ocampa. As she said in "Darkling", if there should be changes in her life, she wanted to experience thise with her friends.

I would also like to quote this sentence from the book "The Black Shore":

Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.

Sums it up pretty good!

As for books and getting stories published, well I get the impression that it's easier to break into Fort Knox than to have Star Trek stories published, at least for non-US citizens. But who knows.......

And no, I guess that we will continue to disagree on many things when it comes to Kes. As a fan of the character, I'm clearly dissatisfied with the outcome, especially with the horrible character destruction we saw in "Fury" which was rude, unnecessary for the continuing Voyager story and which I also consider downright insuting to the fans of the character.

Yes, I guess we're going to have to disagree but whatelse is new.

I frankly just don't see based upon what they explained within the show how you come to the conclusion that you do.


As far as getting books published & being within the industry, that's a cop out excuse especially since several members on this site have gotten their stories about Trek published. If you really wanted a book about Kes published you'd put as much effort into it as you do defending her here, seriously. Anybody that ever wanted to achieve anything, were all single minded toward their goals and didn't accept "no" for answer.

 

[Lynx]

^^She openly said in "Coldfire" she wasn't going to use her abilities anymore. Nothing went back to normal, she just stopped experimenting with them. Besides, why did she mention the "extraordinary mental abilities" Ocampans had several times in the series?

Even if Voyager was her family, children grow up and leave their families homes sometimes. The fact that she was thinking about leaving in "Coldfire" & "Darkling" is consistant to her leaving her Ocampan family to explore the outside world. It would hold that she might wish to leave her Voyager family to continue to explore other avenues.

I'm sure if writers wanted too write stories about either one of them they would. Honestly, if you want books written about Kes, there's nothing stopping you from seeking getting your own stories published.

Yes, I know you'll never take stock in any of what I just said because we clearly interpret what's said and shown about Kes very differently. I just feel the writers did what they could and wanted with her and I'm satisfied with the out come.

If you watch "Cold Fire" again, you will notice that Kes couldn't move the cup or make the tea boil in the endscene. She also explains that it didn't work after Tanis had left the ship. So it's obvious that she didn't have those powers anymore.

During the episodes in seasons 2 and 3 after "Cold Fire", Kes never attempted to develope her powers to the same level as they were when Tanis affected her so she probably didn't want to have such powers either.

There's no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". In "Cold Fire", Kes was manipulated by Tanis but showed strength, courage and willpower to withstand this temptation. In "Fury", we only saw a crazy pathetic idiot, so far away from the real Kes that it's doubtful that it could be the real Kes at all.

She did think about leaving Voyager in "Cold Fire" and "Darkling" but the point is that she decided to stay which I see as evidence that she wanted to stay on Voyager.

And even if she wanted to explore other avenues, she had no intention to go back to Ocampa. As she said in "Darkling", if there should be changes in her life, she wanted to experience thise with her friends.

I would also like to quote this sentence from the book "The Black Shore":

Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.

Sums it up pretty good!

As for books and getting stories published, well I get the impression that it's easier to break into Fort Knox than to have Star Trek stories published, at least for non-US citizens. But who knows.......

And no, I guess that we will continue to disagree on many things when it comes to Kes. As a fan of the character, I'm clearly dissatisfied with the outcome, especially with the horrible character destruction we saw in "Fury" which was rude, unnecessary for the continuing Voyager story and which I also consider downright insuting to the fans of the character.

and Kate Mulgrew agrees with you, in one of her con appearance the question was asked, she didn't like Fury or what they did to Kes or Jennifer Lien either..
Heres an excert from the transcript:

Q: “How did the departure of Jennifer Lien affect you and the cast and what are your thoughts on Jennifer’s return in the episode “Fury”?”

Kate: “It was devastating when Jen left; she was an important part of our family and it was like loosing any member of your family. Whether she was happy about leaving or the way it was done, I don't know. I don't think she was happy, but what can you do. They did what they did for their own reasons, but it was a very difficult time. As for “Fury”, I didn't see where they were going with it, stirring up all those emotions, you know, I was like, well, you know, I didn't see the point. It was very hard to go back in there and do that, very difficult."

Q: Someone asked a question about Jennifer Lien attending a Convention in Sydney and not answering any questions and how disappointing her appearance was.

Kate: "Jennifer is a very shy person, she's very introverted and doesn't attend conventions very often, she's an incredible actress, she brings so much clarity to what she does on screen. I'm sure she did her best in answering questions, however, she is tremendously shy and that's probably what you were seeing. I have the utmost respect for her, it can be very difficult getting up here and talking to large crowds, some people handle it with grace and others... well, you know, if you’re not used to it can be terrifying."

I think that Kate Mulgrew hits the nail on the head in her comments.

 

[USS Fardell]

...and fans consider canon paramount.

Not all of us do, many of us are open minded enough to accept alternatives and discuss "what if" that is why we have a message board, to discuss "what if." We are NOT the ruling elite of religious order deciding which works are canon and which are to be rejected.

Please do not issue these sorts of sweeping general statements as fact please.

Agreed. If I only cared about Canon, I wouldn't read the novels. And, for me, the novels are the best.

The String Theory explanation is plausable; but I never really understood what the deal with FURY was in the first place. I guess I need to go back and watch it; but, at the time, it seemed plausable. Especially with her mental abilities in all. Can someone elaborate on the issues of the episode so when I watch it again tonight and I can look for those?

I agree that the String Theory explanation sounds plausible.

We must also face the facts that it will never be any Voyager episode or movie and that those who ruined the character are not involved with Star Trek anymore. So if a writer presents something which might give an acceptable solution to the "Fury" problem, something that the fans of the character Kes appreciate, why must it had to be waved away as unacceptable because of not being "canon"?

I totally agree. If there is relaunch novel with Kes in it, I will certainly read it.

Therefore it's actually natural to discuss other options who may be more acceptable for the fans who ind "Fury" as nothing but an insulting piece of crap.

I think we all should be allowed to talk about the ep. whether some find it acceptable or not. The board is for everyone to express their opinions, correct?

Definitely.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

I didn't care for the ep.

I do think Kes had a lot of unexplored potential; it's a shame so little was done with her.

As for books, they're a nice source of potential explanations and cool ideas, at the very least. However, as books are non-canon, I'm quite disappointed at how seldom alternate universes are explored. Indeed, Trek is better at doing this than many continuations of former TV series. And the most obvious change is to bring back former characters - there can be no excuses as to actor unavailability, or lack of budget, etc.

 

[USS Fardell]

Therefore it's actually natural to discuss other options who may be more acceptable for the fans who ind "Fury" as nothing but an insulting piece of crap.

I think we all should be allowed to talk about the ep. whether some find it acceptable or not. The board is for everyone to express their opinions, correct?

I get the impression that we are doing just that.

That is my impression too.

I actually do like the episode "Fury." Even as a fan of Kes. It's a fun episode, action packed, and it features the Vidiians again who are one of my favorite villains. For my own personal canon, if you will, I accept the String Theory books explanation for the Kes we saw in "Fury." Just because I don't see the friendly Kes we last saw in "The Gift" twisting so far evil as to want to kill all of the friends she made on Voyager. Not just kill them but actually torture the crew by having the Vidiians remove their vital organs.

The Vidiians were good villains. (Meaning that they were portrayed well. The writing was also good, making their plight believable)

That 'String Theory' explanation sounds interesting.

Without being too melodramatic, I will never forgive Rick Berman, Brannon Braga and Bryan Fuller for that episode. Did you know that Braga and Fuller actually did spend a Christmas, figuring out that diabolical scenario? The true spirit of Christmas, wasn't it? And a real Christmas gift to the Kes fans. But what can be expected from such ?

Not in the spirit of Christmas at all!

 

[USS Fardell]

^^
Doesn't matter. The Voyager story continues in the books and the explanations in the "String Theory" books are plausible.

And acceptable for many fans.

LOL - read the above post from Lynx, but do it in a Borgified accent... ta dah... it sooo sounds like Seven! I love it! LOL

BTW like I said in the other thread... I am not a great fan of ole Kes, but I thought Fury was a bit ridiculous in my humble opinion...

I agree, in more ways than one. For example Tom Paris's "Faster than Light: No left or right" with the subspace vacuoles. We had seen starships change direction at warp before...

No it was OUR Kes and she finally, finally leaves forever.

Kes is my least favorite character so it's a toss up as to whether having her dissipate into whatevuh in "The Gift" or turn into Psycho-harridan in "The Fury" is better.

I would have preferred to have "The Gift" as the final episode for Kes, rather than what had happened.

No it was OUR Kes and she finally, finally leaves forever.

Kes is my least favorite character so it's a toss up as to whether having her dissipate into whatevuh in "The Gift" or turn into Psycho-harridan in "The Fury" is better.

Well, I guess that malice can be fun but consider the fact that there are many fans who like Kes and who were very unhappy by the way she was treated.

What would you say if your favorite character would have been destroyed in the same way?

I would be upset at the writers for the travesty of a script that destroyed said character.