"Full stop?"

[Urge]

How is the order "full stop" possible in a universe where speed is relative, and nothing stands still? How does one define the order "full stop" when one no longer has the ground to relate to, but only objects moving in different orbits to different suns moving in different speeds around the center of the milkyway? If forexample "full stop" for Picard is the same speed as our sun, and "full stop" for a Vulcan ship is the same speed as their sun (a natural way of thinking for short travels around the solarsystem perhaps, even though full stop would imidiatly develop into gradualy increasing speed inwards into the sun), then full stop for the Vulcans and the humans will be different.

This might make a fun misunderstanding in a episode:

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Picard to some other alien ship: "Okay people, we have to take a break and talk this over before we continue. Shall we go to full stop?"

Alien ship: "Okay, full stop at three, two, one...." (alien ship drops out behind them)

Picard: Hey - I said full stop!
-------------

Perhaps "full stop" for some space-traveling lifeforms will be almost the speed of light? The stars orbiting close to the center of the milkyway (Where the scientists say there probably is a massive black hole) will circle very fast, so for the aliens living there "full stop" (if it relates to their sun) might be one-third or one-half of lightspeed, or something like that. Such speeds might also do intresting things to time one those places, great fun to speculate, have anny real scientists or math-people speculated on this?

So as a continuation of the "full stop" question I ask a second question as well: How fast might the fastest sun or planet in our galaxy move, and will this make time go much slower on this place?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Full stop either means shut off all engines or full stop is often shouted in reference to another object.

For example, they may come to a derelict ship, full stop would me full stop relative to that vessels position in space.

It's pretty straight forward stuff.

Of course there's always the possibility that the ship has some kind of device that anchors it to the fabric of space cancelling out all momentum of the ship.

 

[Urge]

So full stop can mean two different things, depending on the situation.

The next question is perhaps more intresting and difficult to answer, even though it might belong in the Science sub-forum.

 

[Forbin]

Yah, if you have two unrealted questions, at least start two threads so the discussion doesn't get confusing.

Maybe "Full stop" means "in relation to local space"? Whatever that may be.

Or, consider that the Federation navigation system is based on coordinates that zero on Sol, and are read by the ship via a subspace becon. The ship always knows where it is in relation to Earth/Sol. So "full stop" could mean stop the ship at a fixed point in the Federation galactic nav grid.

Then again, you still have the motion of Sol within the galaxy to contend with...

 

[Royal Fizzbin]

I've always wondered this too. My guess is that since coordinates are probably based on your position relative to the center of the galaxy "full stop" means "maintain this same position/coordinates within the galaxy". "Full stop" could mean very different things in an absolute sense (even though there's no such thing as absolute in regard to velocity) whether you are near the center of the galaxy or the edge.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

The thing is, everything in the universe is moving relative to something else but they all have one thing in common and that is gravity. Gravity is the reason why everything orbits and interacts with everything.

In the Trekverse if you have the ability to shut down all engines and then cancel out all gravity and cancel all momentum to the vessel even though everything else in the universe is still moving around, the ship will technically be at an absolute stop.

Everything else will be moving due to gravity, the binding force in the universe. Make a ship immune to gravity and momentum and with absolutely nothing giving off thrust then surely that will technically be a "FULL stop".

I look at the universe as an ocean which has currents moving all around creating whirlpools and streams all flowing in different directions with no apparent "stop" that we can see. But drop an anchor into that stream and the ship on it will come to a stop. You'll look around you and as far as the eye can see will be water flowing around moving things about on top of the water but thanks to the anchor you know you're the one that is still and at a full stop.

 

[Royal Fizzbin]

I guess the question then is about the coordinate system that they use to determine location within the galaxy. If you have the position of the center of the galaxy, and determine an arbritrary axis within the 2-dimensional galactic plane as your starting point, you could probably best determine your position using spherical coordinates. That would involve θ, the horizontal (within the galactic plane) angle from the starting axis; φ, the vertical (perpendicular to the galactic plane) angle from the starting axis; and r, the straight-line distance from the center. So the logical choice to me would be that "full stop", when you're not in a synchronous orbit, or rendezvoused with a station, or something relative to another object, means "maintain a position such that our coordinates (r, θ, φ) relative to the galactic center do not change".

But maybe I'm overthinking this and "full stop" is relative to the motion of local stars.

 

[Royal Fizzbin]

On second thought, because the galaxy is basically a disk, perhaps it would be better to use the cylindrical coordinate system. This involves ρ, the distance from the center within the galactic plane; φ, the angle from the starting axis; and z, the "vertical" (perpendicular to the galactic plane) distance. But the principle would remain the same, of maintaining the same three coordinates relative to the galactic center.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's far more likely that "full stop" means a suspension of subspace drive systems--impulse engines and warp drives--and a return to the "normal" reference frame you started with. This would mean a velocity relative to the sun of about 30km/s or so in some particular direction.

Now, "full stop" used in the second sense is incoherent and wrong, which is why in TMP we hear Kirk saying things like "hold relative position" and "thrusters at stationkeeping" and so on.

 

[Tom Riley]

Well I always figured, since the Federation was charting the galaxy and splitting it up into definite quadrants and sectors and etc, that "full stop" would mean to hold position in relation to the sector they were in and the quadrant and galaxy as a whole.

 

[Timo]

In the end, though, the command "full stop" is only issued for two purposes: to stop movement relative to a target of interest (i.e. match velocities), or to shut down the engines (perhaps in order to be quiet, or to ease strain on the engines, or because one is uncertain of where to proceed and decides to proceed nowhere).

So trying to stop relative to some astronomical reference point would be, well, pointless. It would serve no tactical purpose. It should be obvious from the context whether "Full stop, Ensign!" means matching velocities with a target or shutting down the engines - although in most cases, matching velocities with a target when "Full stop" is commanded would mean shutting down the warp and impulse engines.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kaziarl]

In the end, though, the command "full stop" is only issued for two purposes: to stop movement relative to a target of interest (i.e. match velocities), or to shut down the engines (perhaps in order to be quiet, or to ease strain on the engines, or because one is uncertain of where to proceed and decides to proceed nowhere).

So trying to stop relative to some astronomical reference point would be, well, pointless. It would serve no tactical purpose. It should be obvious from the context whether "Full stop, Ensign!" means matching velocities with a target or shutting down the engines - although in most cases, matching velocities with a target when "Full stop" is commanded would mean shutting down the warp and impulse engines.

Timo Saloniemi

I think full stop relative to a given target makes the most sense. If you were trying to sit close to a large asteroid to avoid detection, you wouldn't want your relative motion to be moving you closer to or further from the asteroid. Either of those two, and you're gonna have a bad day.

 

[Shaw]

We shouldn't forget that many of the commands given in the course of dialog on the show were based on commands one might hear on a naval vessel. And on many ships, commands for a change of speed are based on the dial of the ship's engine telegraph.

"Full Stop" in this context would be more than just moving the handle to "Stop", it would be running the handle through the full range of movement three times (ringing the bells three times) to alert the engine room of the dire need for the change of orders.

 

[Creedence]

I seem to recall Kirk asking for full stop, or perhaps all stop, and Sulu often replying, "Aye, Sir. Thrusters at station keeping."

Station keeping could mean a couple different things but I'm betting the ship sensors have means to detect any movement in any direction and station keeping negates any movement what-so-ever.

My three cents.

~Creedence

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Actually, "stationkeeping" is an aerospace term. It describes thruster action intended to maintain position relative to a fixed external coordinate that may or may not also be moving, usually a specific orbital trajectory or another orbiting body. So like almost everything else that happens in space, the phrase "Thrusters at stationkeeping" is only meaningful relative to an external reference point. In TMP, such reference points included the Dry Dock, the V'ger cloud, even V'ger itself; "thrusters at stationkeeping" is something you will absolutely never hear unless the ship is close to another object or plotted trajectory in space.

"All stop" probably explicitly requires a certain amount of reverse thrust from the impulse engines, assuming the ship is coasting somewhat in its little subspace bubble; apply reverse thrust to cancel relative velocity and then use thrusters to maintain a stationary position with respect to an outside observer.

Your three cents add up to a quarter

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We shouldn't forget that many of the commands given in the course of dialog on the show were based on commands one might hear on a naval vessel.

Not in TMP, though, and definitely not in STXI.

 

[sbk1234]

For some reason, I'm reminded of that scene in Life of Brian when the spaceship is screeching to a halt in space.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

In TNG: Remember Me, the traveler told the crew that in order to get Doctor Crusher out of the Warp Bubble, they would have to go back to the exact point in space where the Warp Bubble enveloped her -- so Picard had ordered the ship back to Starbase 133, to the location it was originally docked, and ordered "Precision Station-Keeping."

This seems to me, however, to have been a useless exercise, as that starbase, and the planet it was orbiting, will have moved a great distance by the time they got back. It doesn't make much sense in the real world.

 

[Timo]

Picard might have misunderstood the Traveler's requirements for precision... OTOH, warp bubbles aren't exactly "real world", not even in the Trek universe; as a main ingredient there is the unity of space, time and thought that the Traveler keeps talking about, perhaps it was the thought that counted?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

I assumed that "Full Stop" meant that they'd cut the output of the engines in the rear and then turn on one in the front to cancel out the remaining output, therefore not have the ship move from it's position due to engine output.