Full Circle

[DigificWriter]

Brit and Kathryn J: Without contradicting Nemesis (which established that Janeway had accepted a promotion to Admiral as well as an accompanying desk job) and ignoring her death in Before Dishonor, how would you have proposed maintaining her role as a central character in post-"Endgame" Voyager fiction in the period of time that elapses between the ship's return home and the events of Destiny/Full Circle/Unworthy (nothing can change about said events other than her involvement)?

 

[Brit]

Brit and Kathryn J: Without contradicting Nemesis (which established that Janeway had accepted a promotion to Admiral as well as an accompanying desk job) and ignoring her death in Before Dishonor, how would you have proposed maintaining her role as a central character in post-"Endgame" Voyager fiction in the period of time that elapses between the ship's return home and the events of Destiny/Full Circle/Unworthy (nothing can change about said events other than her involvement)?

I can't speak for Kathryn, who is probably in bed now because it's after 2AM in her part of Germany, and I will not comment on Kathryn Janeway's involvement is the events of "Destiny," "Full Circle" or "Unworthy." I haven't read them and I don't intend to until Kathryn Janeway has been brought back.

That being said I can tell you what I would have done with the books taking place after "Endgame." I wouldn't concentrate on the Space Ship at all. I'd concentrate on the Characters in a Earth Based situation. I would imagine that after being lost in the Delta Quadrant none of the crew would be all that ready to run off into space again. This goes back to what I said before and that is for a lot of us Voyager was the characters not the ship.

I also think the novels would be better off with someone other than the Borg as antognists. Personally I think that the Romulans would fill that position. Remember after Nemesis they are leaderless and could be split into dangerous factions. One of Abram's biggest mistakes was trashing the Romulans. They are interesting and largely underused.

Again I am not critizing the quality of the writing, only the vision of the editors.

Multiple editors have been fired or left since these novels were given a go.

And that should be your first clue.

October 2010

“There are many JANEWAY stories yet to be told.”

Jacqueline Lichtenberg, author of “Star Trek Lives”

http://aliendjinnromances.blogspot.com/2010/10/star-trek-voyager-and-captain-janeway.html

I'm not the only one with this opinion.

Brit

 

[JB2005]

^ Multiple Editors were fired because of the economic situation...

 

[Brit]

^ Multiple Editors were fired because of the economic situation...

Except they wouldn't have been if they were making money for the publishers. Especially in a bad economic situation businesses trim out what isn't making money first. Multiple Editors being let go + fewer books published + bad economics = a line that isn't meeting expectations. I am afraid that bottom line, they either have to change the direction of Trek Literature and hope to pick up the readership that they have lost, or stop publishing it all together.

Brit

 

[JB2005]

^ Go say that in the Trek Lit forum...I'd run away quickly if I were you when you do...

and they haven't "changed the direction" everything up to Indistinguishable from Magic" I am reliably informed is a novel that was commissioned, steered through or otherwise had the editing done partially or completely by either Marco Palmeri or Margaret Clark. It's only now that we're about to enter the time when the "new direction" comes into effect.

But why let facts get in the way of your claims?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

"Return me to Treklit NOW Mr. Pocket Books."

 

[Brit]

^ Go say that in the Trek Lit forum...I'd run away quickly if I were you when you do...

and they haven't "changed the direction" everything up to Indistinguishable from Magic" I am reliably informed is a novel that was commissioned, steered through or otherwise had the editing done partially or completely by either Marco Palmeri or Margaret Clark. It's only now that we're about to enter the time when the "new direction" comes into effect.

But why let facts get in the way of your claims?

It's apparent that you don't let facts get in the way of your claims. We don't know actual sales figures because the only publishers that make those public are the romance publishers who are the only ones that have made money lately. They actually sell about half of all books sold.

The people down in Trek Lit live in a state of denial. The problem is that Pocket Books hasn't made this work, they keep firing or replacing editors and they keep losing money. Truth is every one of the major publishers are losing money now with the exception of the above mentioned Romance Publisers. Book store chains are going under.

If Pocket Books will not change their direction the next step would to completely discontinue the line and either Paramount would go with another publisher (just how realistic that is, would be in question since Paramount, CBS, and Simon and Schuster are interconnected) or they would simply drop the line all together and at that point any new Trek would be in the hands of the fic writers.

I don't think you would much care for the fic because it is written by women for the most part and leans mostly into the realm of romantic fiction.

Brit

 

[JB2005]

^ Apart from Trek Lit, the books I read are the one my girlfriend recommends to me, I like a good romance novel as much as the next!

"We don't know actual sales figures"
"Pocket Books...keep losing money"

One of these statements is a fallacy.

Just because PB are losing money on the whole, it doesn't mean Trek isn't selling fine. The editors aren't just responsible for Trek, they have very overarching roles (I need one of the authors to confirm this but I'm pretty sure that) the current editor is responsible for the majority of tie-in media produced by Pocket.

Pocket aren't letting editors go because the line isn't selling, they're having to streamline to survive.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

I hope Kirsten Beyer comes in to correct me if I'm wrong. But if I remember correctly, during one of the many chats about this on the TrekLit forum, they had begun formulating plans for the Voyager continuation before Before Dishonor had been written. And had decided that Janeway wasn't going to be part of it going forward.

But I'm old, so I hope Ms. Beyer can set that part of the record straight.

Happy to.

I was first approached about writing the books that would become Full Circle and Unworthy three years before they hit the shelves. At that time I was only told that Kathryn Janeway would die in Before Dishonor. Neither myself, nor my editor knew that the Q angle would be added to the book at that time so I began my work with the premise that Janeway was dead and could not be used in any stories set after Before Dishonor.

Over the next year I developed the stories, only to be informed that Destiny was in the works and that my work would need to be coordinated with those stories as well, which entailed an entire re-working of the material I had already created.

Over the next year I worked with several other authors, all developing different aspects of the Destiny stories to tie all of our material together and it was at that time...long after Kathryn's death was established, that I realized I needed the character of Admiral Batiste.

Everyone keeps thinking because they read, or hear about the stories as they are released that in creating them, we knew at the start how the stories were going to develop and that all the characters we were going to need/use were on the board from the beginning, so why didn't we just plug Janeway in somewhere and spare everyone this misery. The fact is, I didn't realize that an Admiral would be accompanying the fleet until long after Janeway's death had been decided upon, and, as had been rightly pointed out, Admiral Batiste's role was incredibly specific to these stories and ultimately part of the bigger picture of Chakotay resuming command of Voyager along a difficult but organic path as a character.

I've also said, numerous times, that from the beginning of any project there are as many ideas about how a story can develop and how characters can evolve as there are people intrerested in creating them. But just because a story can be told, that doesn' t mean that it's the best choice for the universe as a whole. It's not a lack of imagination or love of characters that has led us to this place. It is simply a desire to tell the most interesting and new and compelling stories we can. I know many disagree with the choices that were made and I have no problem with that. Our choices would not have been yours. Fine. But with Janeway's death we were given a chance to explore something that has never been done in Treklit...beloved characters facing and coming to grips with the death of one of those dearest to them and forging a future for themselves in the face of unspeakable tragedy.

If that's not interesting to you, no worries. But it was interesting to us because it was a road never before taken. I'm happy to live with the consequences because in the end, I believe we have accomplished much of what we set out to do, if not for Janeway, then certainly for Voyager as a whole.

On a completely different note, I have to say that one of the only comments that continually is raised in these discussions that I find incredibly disrespectful are those in reference to the editors who have been let go in the last couple of years. You don't like one choice that was made...to allow Kathryn Janeway to die in the service of the Federation and to protect her crew. But this choice never in any way impacted what happened to these editors. They were casualties of the economic downturn which has hit the publishing industry particularly hard. They did amazing work that went well beyond Voyager and well beyond Trek for years and years and those of us still working on published Trek continue to reach for the bar they always set incredibly high for us. To attempt to reduce this personal tragedy to something that they deserved because you disagree with one editorial choice is to display a level of callousness I find unusual coming from people who love Trek in all of its forms. These are real people with lives that were turned upside down by forces well beyond their control and their loss is felt daily. To suggest otherwise, or to imply that they deserved what happened to them because you're not fond of a single editorial choice is heartless and cruel.

Kirsten Beyer

 

[froot]

I'm sort of wandering into this thread blind, but...

Kirsten Beyer, I want to say first that I absolutely loved what you did in Full Circle (as well as your tale in Distant Shores and that recent J/C article!) It was, as you said, sad and poignant and wonderful. I really enjoy your writing and the work you put into what you do. It was interesting to see the characters deal with such a prominent death, and I felt their profound loss. It was totally different than the usual Voyager fare, and I enjoyed the heart-wrenching ride. And the tragic J/C angst! Yum!

It was a risk I sometimes wish the TV show had taken - what if Janeway's final act was to die to get everyone home? It would have been fitting with her character, I think. They almost went there in Endgame, but not quite.

But... the way the death itself was originally written in Before Dishonor felt a lot like getting flipped the bird, whether or not that was really anyone's intent. This is why the fans have their hackles up and are being rather irate. Those of us who do bother to like Janeway's character usually have to wade through a fair amount of Trekkie vitriol on a regular basis, and it was very, very disheartening to see how the character was portrayed in Before Dishonor. It felt sort of like, "Ha! Eat it. That's what you morons get for liking Voyager. Picard wins."

Full Circle felt like a band-aid on a wound to me (even though it was a lovely band-aid, like the colorful band-aids with the fun little pictures on 'em.) I wish you had been given the task of writing her death initially, if I may say so. I think I would have been a lot more okay with the whole thing. I do really like the new, original relaunch characters (the Dr. House reference is awesome!) and I'm sure they took oodles upon oodles of work to bring to life, but I just can't bring myself to read or buy the books following "Full Circle." I just feel too spurned. For me, it's like eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the delicious grape jelly.

I remember when DC came out with this comic in the 90s where Superman died. I recall picking up the book and seeing him dead in this huge two-page spread, and my heart broke into little pieces. Superman's not real, but he's a hero, you know? No one wants to see their heroes get their butts kicked.

 

[F. King Daniel]

A fascinating look behind Full Circle, and how the books are coordinated, Kirsten - thanks (and for the books!)

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I've got to second what froot said (although I did buy both Full Circle and Unworthy, and will continue to buy them, mostly because Kristen Beyer has completely turned things around and made it one of the better Trek Lit series, especially with some of the recent output).

It's not the fact that she's dead (by "dead", what I really mean is "considered dead by everyone in the Trek Lit Universe, though she's actually with Q, and actually still alive in the Star Trek Online novel), per se, that's the problem. It's the way she was written, the way her death was written, and the fact that she was basically treated as a redshirt in someone else's novel series that's the problem.

Well, that and the fact that Before Dishonor was a horrible piece of writing that was nowhere near being ready for publishing (and this is aside from the Janeway issue).

 

[BillJ]

Thanks Kirsten, for the clarification and the look inside development of Full Circle and Unworthy.

 

[BillJ]

^ Go say that in the Trek Lit forum...I'd run away quickly if I were you when you do...

I'd rather bait my manhood with raw meat and go into a lion's den than weather that particular argument again.

 

[DigificWriter]

I can't speak for Kathryn, who is probably in bed now because it's after 2AM in her part of Germany, and I will not comment on Kathryn Janeway's involvement is the events of "Destiny," "Full Circle" or "Unworthy." I haven't read them and I don't intend to until Kathryn Janeway has been brought back.

That being said I can tell you what I would have done with the books taking place after "Endgame." I wouldn't concentrate on the Space Ship at all. I'd concentrate on the Characters in a Earth Based situation. I would imagine that after being lost in the Delta Quadrant none of the crew would be all that ready to run off into space again. This goes back to what I said before and that is for a lot of us Voyager was the characters not the ship.

I also think the novels would be better off with someone other than the Borg as antognists. Personally I think that the Romulans would fill that position. Remember after Nemesis they are leaderless and could be split into dangerous factions. One of Abram's biggest mistakes was trashing the Romulans. They are interesting and largely underused.

Again I am not critizing the quality of the writing, only the vision of the editors.

Brit

I have to be honest and tell you that, personally, I cannot think of a single sustained/sustainable scenario that would accomplish what you would have liked to have seen AND that would have also made for engaging and compelling reading, and I've got a sneaking suspicion that my opinion would be shared by a majority of others both here and in the Trek Lit forums.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, even if said opinion makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

To Ms. Beyer: I echo/second others in thanking you for your insight into the behind-the-scenes process when it comes to Full Circle and Unworthy. I also second what you said about people trying to make Marco Palmieri, Margaret Clark, and Jaime Costas' firings part of their 'bring back Janeway' crusade, but would also like to add that, in addition to what you mentioned, I think it's extremely petty, and amounts to a child sulking in a corner and blaming the adults in the room because they didn't get what they wanted. (I'm sorry if that offends the people who want Janeway back/would have liked to have had her remain a central Voyager character, but that's just the way I see it).

 

[AuntKate]

The issue many Voyager fans have with PB goes back much farther than Before Dishonor. The series was underutilized for many, many years in favor of the others. Then, after Voyager ended, the writers used of the more popular Voyager characters in TNG or DS9 novels (including using Seven of Nine on the cover of a TNG novel), and then, to add insult to injury, killed Janeway in a TNG novel. The cumulative effect is what irritates many of us and makes us want to see more "real" Voyager novels that we missed earlier.

I've wondered why Voyager was overlooked so much. I think part of it is that the editors/writers never really embraced the show or the characters or were so caught up in the previous three series that they were uninterested in pursuing Voyager. I always wondered why they didn't use Voyager to do something different and appeal to a different sort of scifi audience, perhaps one that is more relationship based.

Another issue might have been Voyager's arrival on the scene just as the internet arrived and fanfiction really took off. This really could have impacted sales since the fanfiction tends to go into the relationships that the novels avoid. Even now, on fanfiction.net, you can see what I mean: DS9 (1119 stories), ENT (3649 stories), Other (1242), TNG (2485), TOS (3645), VOY (6663 stories). That is, as we say around here, non-trivial. Admittedly, much of the fiction there is awful, but the interest in the series is undeniable and largely ignored by PB.

Print media is definitely struggling in light of changes in technology, and I think that editors are lagging behind the trends. Why are these lock-stepped into the "usual" Star Trek formulas for their plots? Why not branch out, make Voyager a different type of genre, appeal to another segment of the scifi audience (romance/relationship) that is buying books? The mere fact that this issue is still hotly contested and argued should be a sign of interest, don't you think?

 

[BillJ]

Why are these lock-stepped into the "usual" Star Trek formulas for their plots? Why not branch out, make Voyager a different type of genre, appeal to another segment of the scifi audience (romance/relationship) that is buying books? The mere fact that this issue is still hotly contested and argued should be a sign of interest, don't you think?

This is probably a big part of the disconnect between those who want Janeway alive and those who are indifferent to it. I have no interest in relationship drama and if Voyager were to go that route I can imagine it would bleed alot of readers. Would there be enough new readers to make up for those who left? I don't know.

 

[AuntKate]

Why are these lock-stepped into the "usual" Star Trek formulas for their plots? Why not branch out, make Voyager a different type of genre, appeal to another segment of the scifi audience (romance/relationship) that is buying books? The mere fact that this issue is still hotly contested and argued should be a sign of interest, don't you think?

This is probably a big part of the disconnect between those who want Janeway alive and those who are indifferent to it. I have no interest in relationship drama and if Voyager were to go that route I can imagine it would bleed alot of readers. Would there be enough new readers to make up for those who left? I don't know.

I think it is pretty clear that the "traditional" Star Trek fan is not happy with Voyager in general and Janeway in particular. The series was always different, and the reaction at PB has been to ignore those differences in favor of the tried and true instead of realizing that they were writing for a new audience. Their stable of writers was not comfortable with it, and the writers hired to write it have not always been able to strike a balance that appeals to readers.

Voyager has always been about relationships--its starting premise was focused on how the Maquis would mix with the Starfleet crew and ship, which is relationship, pure and simple. It continued to look at that with the struggles of Seven of Nine to acclimate to non-Borg life, the inclusion of new aliens on the ship (including the Borg kids), etc. The ship was in a fluid environment, always meeting new aliens, and so the longer arcs were inside the ship, between the crew.

In addition, Voyager always had a high humor factor, something that the PB novels never adequately embraced, preferring to go with the serious tone of previous series. Voyager provided us with some of the best humor in all of Trek and yet this seldom showed up in the novels.

In tough times, it is scary to branch away from the "tried and true" plots and characterizations that seem to keep the current readership happy, but innovation and change is essential to growth and to the addition of new readers. It is a shame that the editors and writers didn't use Voyager to branch out and try something new.

My concern is, at this late date, the "new" audience has given up on Voyager ever being written in the spirit of the series. Case in point: the current novels labeled Voyager don't even have two of the most prominent and popular characters--Janeway and Tuvok. Readers I know who are new to the books are simply stunned to find out that Janeway is not just absent from the novels, but dead. If I'm a Voyager fan and spend my hard-earned money on a book only to be disappointed, what is it going to take to get me to part with more money later on? The simple answer is to write Voyager the way the readers want it.

 

[BillJ]

Why are these lock-stepped into the "usual" Star Trek formulas for their plots? Why not branch out, make Voyager a different type of genre, appeal to another segment of the scifi audience (romance/relationship) that is buying books? The mere fact that this issue is still hotly contested and argued should be a sign of interest, don't you think?

This is probably a big part of the disconnect between those who want Janeway alive and those who are indifferent to it. I have no interest in relationship drama and if Voyager were to go that route I can imagine it would bleed alot of readers. Would there be enough new readers to make up for those who left? I don't know.

I think it is pretty clear that the "traditional" Star Trek fan is not happy with Voyager in general and Janeway in particular. The series was always different, and the reaction at PB has been to ignore those differences in favor of the tried and true instead of realizing that they were writing for a new audience. Their stable of writers was not comfortable with it, and the writers hired to write it have not always been able to strike a balance that appeals to readers.

Voyager has always been about relationships--its starting premise was focused on how the Maquis would mix with the Starfleet crew and ship, which is relationship, pure and simple. It continued to look at that with the struggles of Seven of Nine to acclimate to non-Borg life, the inclusion of new aliens on the ship (including the Borg kids), etc. The ship was in a fluid environment, always meeting new aliens, and so the longer arcs were inside the ship, between the crew.

In addition, Voyager always had a high humor factor, something that the PB novels never adequately embraced, preferring to go with the serious tone of previous series. Voyager provided us with some of the best humor in all of Trek and yet this seldom showed up in the novels.

In tough times, it is scary to branch away from the "tried and true" plots and characterizations that seem to keep the current readership happy, but innovation and change is essential to growth and to the addition of new readers. It is a shame that the editors and writers didn't use Voyager to branch out and try something new.

My concern is, at this late date, the "new" audience has given up on Voyager ever being written in the spirit of the series. Case in point: the current novels labeled Voyager don't even have two of the most prominent and popular characters--Janeway and Tuvok. Readers I know who are new to the books are simply stunned to find out that Janeway is not just absent from the novels, but dead. If I'm a Voyager fan and spend my hard-earned money on a book only to be disappointed, what is it going to take to get me to part with more money later on? The simple answer is to write Voyager the way the readers want it.

Well.. it doesn't help that any conflict with the Maquis was dropped pretty early in the series. It also doesn't help that Voyager's numbers continued to go down throughout the series run.

If Pocket continues on the road its on now with Voyager, it would be pretty indicative that they are happy with the sales numbers being generated by the re-relaunch.

Pocket is not in business to flip the bird at Voyager fans, they are in business to turn a profit.

 

[AuntKate]

If PB is in the business of selling books, they would do well to diversify rather than restrict the imagination and direction their novelists can take. The environment the writers face (having read Beyer's most recent pots), which means having to coordinate with what everyone else is writing and what other novels will be developing, sounds like one of the rings of hell to me. Ugh. No wonder all the books are alike.