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French lawmakers Approve Full Veil Ban

But I do understand Islam,

Uncertain since a majority of muslims find the niqab ridiculous.

and I can notice a biased action when I see it.
Religions in the public space is taboo over here. For ALL religions.

This is just as immoral as those who hate gay marriage or believe that interracial relationships are a sin.
:rolleyes:
You're again seeing the problem with your American eyes.


You are oppressing an entire group of people and you just don't give a shit, using the pathetic excuse of "well, our culture is just like that" to defend it.
Yeps, I don't give a shit, they can move to the USA if they want since integrists are welcome here.
When they moved over here, our hardcore secularism was not a secret.
 
This is just as immoral as those who hate gay marriage or believe that interracial relationships are a sin.

No, it isn't. Religion is voluntary - a choice; sexual orientation is not.

You are oppressing an entire group of people and you just don't give a shit, using the pathetic excuse of "well, our culture is just like that" to defend it.
On the other hand, the argument against what you term oppression is "well, their culture is just like that". It is entirely reasonable to reject those tenets of a culture which are based in and propagate discrimination. One of the fundamental principles of the French Republic is equality; the cultural elements that drive the wearing of a full veil undermine that principle; without those oppressive elements, I am certain we would not be seeing the present reaction to veils in France.

It is equally reasonable for a people to decide what parts of life are and are not proper in the public square. The people of France have chosen to exclude religion from that square - no less than the people of America have chosen to exclude nudity from it. It remains within the rights of all French persons to practice their religions in privacy.

This is the exact same reason women aren't allowed to go topless on most US beaches.

Are you in favor of mandatory topless beaches? (And not optional, mind you. Mandatory. You MUST go topless to visit any beach.)

The beach clothing issue is somewhat more complicated: First, the lower portions of male swimming outfits are generally less revealing than are those of female swimming clothes. Second, many males wear tops (generally t-shirts or tank tops) on the beach; females are more likely to wear tops, but are also often not permitted to go without them.* Third, unless I'm mistaken, female swimming tops often provide support or confinement, which can increase comfort - a practical purpose, not based in discrimination.

* As a person who values equality, I find this objectionable.
 
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When they moved over here, our hardcore secularism was not a secret.

You're not the only one doing it so apologies for only quoting you, but I'm loving the assumption in this thread that everyone wearing, or more specifically wanting to wear a veil in France is automatically an immigrant.
 
Someone here isn't getting it. That person isn't me though.

I do understand that you're seeing the problem with your American eyes. Your cultural standard is not mine, it's not universal and no, you don't understand French secularism.
But I agree with him and I'm totally European. :confused:

I think it's 'not French' eyes rather than 'American' per sé. I don't like enforced secularism either, and I'm no American.
 
I do understand that you're seeing the problem with your American eyes. Your cultural standard is not mine, it's not universal and no, you don't understand French secularism.
But I agree with him and I'm totally European. :confused:

I think it's 'not French' eyes rather than 'American' per sé. I don't like enforced secularism either, and I'm no American.
I don't think it's 'not French' either, since I happen to know French people who don't like it any more than I do. I don't think this is an issue where people's opinions are easily divided by national boundaries.

(We have the same burqa discussion going on in the Netherlands, where I live, and there some people are all 'yay! Let's ban the Mooslims!' and some are 'wtf guys, how stupid is this?'

What makes it even weirder is that during my five years in the Netherlands I've seen exactly one person wearing a burqa or a face-covering niqab, which the ban would apply to. Plenty of veils, tho.)
 
When they moved over here, our hardcore secularism was not a secret.

You're not the only one doing it so apologies for only quoting you, but I'm loving the assumption in this thread that everyone wearing, or more specifically wanting to wear a veil in France is automatically an immigrant.

It's a quick generalisation maybe but from experience (at work) I can tell you that's often the case.

But I agree with him and I'm totally European. :confused:

But you're not French. We have really a singular view of secularism.
 
Your cultural standard is not mine, it's not universal and no, you don't understand French secularism.
There's no such thing as French secularism, there is only secularism-- which I understand, since I'm secular. I also understand oppression, since I've seen countless examples. Violating Human Rights is wrong, in any context.

One of the fundamental principles of the French Republic is equality; the cultural elements that drive the wearing of a full veil undermine that principle; without those oppressive elements, I am certain we would not be seeing the present reaction to veils in France.
Ah, so then it's okay for somebody in France to choose to wear a veil as long as they are a registered Atheist.
 
Your cultural standard is not mine, it's not universal and no, you don't understand French secularism.
There's no such thing as French secularism, there is only secularism-- which I understand, since I'm secular. I also understand oppression, since I've seen countless examples. Violating Human Rights is wrong, in any context.

You're wrong but it's my fault because I don't use the exact vocabulary. The expression "laïcité à la Française" doesn't mean only secularism it's a whole concept, it's really important to my society.

Ah, so then it's okay for somebody in France to choose to wear a veil as long as they are a registered Atheist.
A registered Atheist ? :lol: What's that seriously ? :lol:
 
Ah, so then it's okay for somebody in France to choose to wear a veil as long as they are a registered Atheist.

Belief in a deity isn't the problem; sexism is. France is not anti-religious, but pro-equality.

(I echo dubiety at the suggestion of a registered non-theist.)
 
Are you assuming that all French people agree with the ban? Because, of course, this is not the case.

All, no. It's never the case. But there is a consensus.
A consensus doesn't make it right, Carrie, unless of course you're stating that it was acceptable for a lot of other things in history to happen because there was "a consensus." Was Switzerland wrong to outright ban mosque towers?
 
Are you assuming that all French people agree with the ban? Because, of course, this is not the case.

All, no. It's never the case. But there is a consensus.
A consensus doesn't make it right, Carrie, unless of course you're stating that it was acceptable for a lot of other things in history to happen because there was "a consensus." Was Switzerland wrong to outright ban mosque towers?

Democracy is all about reaching a consensus, live with it.
 
All, no. It's never the case. But there is a consensus.
A consensus doesn't make it right, Carrie, unless of course you're stating that it was acceptable for a lot of other things in history to happen because there was "a consensus." Was Switzerland wrong to outright ban mosque towers?

Democracy is all about reaching a consensus, live with it.
There once was a consensus in the US that it was okay for blacks to be used as slaves. Doesn't make it right.
 
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