Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

[TREK_GOD_1]

The chart is specific as it only indicates starships, hence Jein's conclusion. I doubt these are all starships parked at Starbase 11 (then why bring starship captains in from the outside for Kirk's Court-Martial?), probably just starships that are being constructed and/or still require essential upgrades.

That is a worthy theory. Considering the Stardate of "Court Martial," it is possible it is still early enough to believe some of the starships are at different stages of refit--from (what audiences would describe as) pilot look to regular series look.

But what about the actual numbers? Jein's assumed NCC-1631 for the Intrepid turns out to be "1831" in HD.

Well, that's just a bust for Jein. HD resolution trumps assumption every time.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Stone is studying the chart and then turns to his intercom wherein he directs repairs crews (or whatever) to switch from the Intrepid to the Enterprise. Put together it supports the idea the chart refers to ships being maintainanced and/or repaired and not ships being constructed.

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.

Depending how much weight you concede to TOS-R the chart is definitely not referring to the repair work in orbit. NCC-1631 (Intrepid) is in orbit for repairs, but doesn't show up on the list.

Intrepid may be the only other Starship in orbit and Stone's evaluation of the chart (revealing that Enterprise isn't "complete" in contrast to Intrepid which is "complete" and therefore is no longer on this chart) may have led to the decision to give the Enterprise priority.

In my opinion FJ was closer to getting it right then Jein even if he didn't put as much speculation into it.

I concur. But because of the popular Star Trek Concordance and eventually Okuda's Encyclopedia which both favored Jein's conclusion, we now have with TOS-R ships beginning with a "16" that are identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17".

One more thing:

I do believe that the notion, that Matt Jefferies debated preproduction sketch is not from the 1960's, comes from his suggestion on that sketch that an upgrade or modernization of the ship would merit it an "A"ppendix.

Obviously, the Enterprise was upgraded / modernized between the pilots and the regular series and possibly Jefferies wanted to have the "A" added, but Roddenberry said no and demanded those saucer pencil gridlines.

For the Phase II project, Jefferies simply revisited his idea (definitely now an upgrade or modernization) but - again - TPTB said "no".

Finally, his original idea was used but in a different context when the Enterprise replacement made it onto the screen in ST IV, where most of us became aware of the issue for the very first time (although he had already proposed it years earlier!)

Bob

 

[Warped9]

Considering how many things they changed for changes sake I don't give TOS-R credit for anything.

 

[blssdwlf]

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial...

And a Space Command Representative.

KIRK: Captain's Log, Stardate 2948.9. The officers who will comprise my court-martial board are proceeding to Starbase Eleven. Meanwhile, repairs on the Enterprise are almost complete.
...
STONE: This court is now in session. I have appointed as members of this court Space Command Representative Lindstrom, Starship Captains Krasnovsky and Chandra.
​

Kirk's "proceeding to Starbase Eleven" could mean they are being departing their orbiting ships around Starbase Eleven or that they have to be flown in from another place.

However it doesn't indicate why Captains from other ships at Starbase Eleven could not be used in the board. They might simply have been excluded out due to:
1. Lack of seniority
2. or conflict of interest
3. or none of the ships at the starbase are "Starship" types and thus no available "Starship" Captains.

Also Kirk mentions his ship being repaired and since 1701 was listed on the status chart it would seem to include ships under repair rather than being upgraded or under construction, IMHO.

beginning with a "16" that are identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17".

What of the Constellation, beginning with a "10" that is almost identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17"? Then again, how do we know that all ships 17xx look like the Enterprise?

 

[GSchnitzer]

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.

Well, Krasnovsky, Chandra, and Lindstrom are actually already at Starbase 11. They are in the "Starbase M-11 Officer's Club" at the very beginning of Act One when Kirk and McCoy come in and get the cold shoulder from some other officers. This is even before Kirk and Stone have their hearing at which Kirk decides to draw a General Court Martial. I think we need to believe our eyes instead of what someone says.

 

[Melakon]

Although there are several ships shown in TOS that resemble NCC-1701, it doesn't necessarily mean they have the same internal configuration (the Lexington's command chair for example). Class designations may refer to onboard equipment.

 

[StarCruiser]

Just to drop this here - there are examples of ships in recent times that are based on the same hull and engineering design, but are given different class names due to different equipment and missions:

Spruance class Destroyers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruance-class_destroyer

Kidd class Guided Missile Destroyers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidd-class_destroyer

Ticonderoga class Guided Missile Cruisers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga-class_cruiser

All are built on the same hull and have the same basic engines (LM2500 Gas Turbines) along with many other features. They are not used for the exact same missions and equipped with a different mix of sensors, control systems, weapons etc...

 

[Robert Comsol]

Well, Krasnovsky, Chandra, and Lindstrom are actually already at Starbase 11. ... . I think we need to believe our eyes instead of what someone says.

That's what I get for making that discovery in the "Court-Martial" thread. (and sorry, you forgot to circle the court clerk who is showing us his back).

But I believe I already mentioned there that the editing of the entire episode is somewhat odd (Kirk runs out of the club and doesn't even look at Areel Shaw, looks like it had been intended for a later scene after she told him she'd be persecutor).

Of course you can either take this scene literal or chalk it off as a production necessity to have many actors in the club including the ones that were not supposed to be there, yet (and seriously, I hadn't noticed their presence in 30 years until the "Court-Martial" thread came up).

Bob

 

[Robert Comsol]

However it doesn't indicate why Captains from other ships at Starbase Eleven could not be used in the board. They might simply have been excluded out due to:
1. Lack of seniority
2. or conflict of interest
3. or none of the ships at the starbase are "Starship" types and thus no available "Starship" Captains.

Also Kirk mentions his ship being repaired and since 1701 was listed on the status chart it would seem to include ships under repair rather than being upgraded or under construction, IMHO.

It's a "Star Ship Status" display and obviously the chart exclusively shows "Starships".

• if you believe it shows the repair work in orbit, there should be other starship captains at Starbase 11, waiting for repairs to be finished just as Kirk. A Vulcan starship captain might be excused for not wanting to participate in a trial against a human captain, but I can't imagine why other human starship captains should have an excuse if it's actually a duty they (have to) perform.
• if you believe it shows the repair work in orbit, isn't it a little strange that the Enterprise just arrived, but the repair job is already 83% complete and still Stone feels compelled to give the order to halt repair on the Intrepid on behalf of Enterprise. ?

What of the Constellation, beginning with a "10" that is almost identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17"?

Just like the Eagle it is my firm belief that the Constellation is a Starship of the 17th (or 16th) design but its registry number honors the achievements of a previous Starfleet vessel of an (unseen) 10th design.

Then again, how do we know that all ships 17xx look like the Enterprise?

Because the father of the Enterprise illustrated and said so, and because no vessel with a 17XX has ever been shown that looks differently.

Bob

 

[Shawnster]

Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?

 

[Timo]

I think we need to believe our eyes instead of what someone says.

On this vein, let's rationalize...

SB 11 is located on a planet; some imagery makes it look like a habitable one. Might well be that SB 11 is but one installation on an inhabited world, rather than the entirety of human/UFP presence on that world.

So, while some people might prefer staying at the local drinking establishments, most would quickly depart the starbase after arriving if they possibly could. So let's say the skippers ultimately picked for Kirk's court-martial had already gone to the next city when Stone made his decision, after having had a meeting at the starbase and a quick pint or two, and had to be summoned back... That'd cover the "on their way" part nicely enough.

Why these three were selected, rather than any other three out of the no doubt dozens of skippers and several star ship skippers currently on the planet, isn't that much of a problem. Weird rules govern the selection of jury members everywhere, in civil courts and competitions of all sorts. Hey, for all we know the three were sharing a drink with a court clerk and a lawyer at the beginning of the story because they had just finished processing a previous case! Stone might have picked them for their expertise in the field.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[aridas sofia]

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.

I suppose it just might also mean that the captains of those starships being repaired were too occupied with say, their ships' repairs to be pulled into a court martial proceeding.

 

[aridas sofia]

Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?

This thread is about far more than the class of the starship Enterprise.

 

[Timo]

In any case, we run into the contradiction that star ship skippers are a rare breed (making Kirk's offense stand out and creating a scandal) yet Stone can summon a couple of those in what looks like a matter of hours. Is space really that small? Or is Kirk after all just one out of hundreds of these "special" skippers, and the hundreds of others are all so squeaky-clean that Kirk's misdemeanor will indeed mar the whole service?

If every ship on a "star ship status" chart has a "special" skipper, then it's the second answer all right - SB 11 can't be the only facility in the universe to process star ships, and not 100% of the star ship fleet can be undergoing repairs simultaneously. So, if hundreds of skippers are "elite", how many "mundane" ones are there in Starfleet? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[aridas sofia]

Hundreds of skippers may be elite, but just thirteen of those elites may have been honored with five year deep space missions.

 

[Timo]

...If such a thing even exists. We have discussed the concept before, and there doesn't seem to be any plausible demarcation of a mission of this particular length (in the material of TOS or in the TOS-describing material added by the spinoffs): it's not bookended by port calls, refuelings, or by location or assignment changes. It seems to merely mark the length of Kirk's time at starship command out there ex post facto. And not all of it was spent in exceptional deep space; plenty involved operations near starbases frequented by other Starfleet assets.

It's quite difficult to imagine that being a star ship skipper for five years would be exceptional as such... Yet the "five year mission" of the Enterprise can't plausibly mean much else than a retrospective highlighting of those five years when Jim Kirk commanded her. And that doesn't really make either him or her particularly special (even though in combination, and in retrospect, the two become legend).

Much of "Court Martial" hinges on Kirk being special. Much of it is difficult to justify. Starfleet seems awfully small when so many of Kirk's old mates amass at SB 11 by accident, yet also awfully big when chance brings such large numbers of "special assets" such as star ships to the base. Something has to give - and we could always use this as leverage to force one interpretation of "star ship status" or another.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Robert Comsol]

Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?

No, you are not.

We are trying to compensate for their original lack of interest but obviously do arrive at incompatible interpretations and conclusions.

Bob

 

[aridas sofia]

Yet the "five year mission" of the Enterprise can't plausibly mean much else than a retrospective highlighting of those five years when Jim Kirk commanded her.

Not likely, since the prologue of each episode plainly stated "These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's five year mission... To boldly go where no man has gone before". While a degree of poetry and hyperbole are permissible given the fact it is a prologue, it nevertheless can't go off half-cock claiming it is about a five year mission to go where no man has gone before if it is about the five years that just so happened to be the captaincy of James Kirk during which he went where people had already been.

What was seen in TOS is certainly not as open and shut as you claim. The fact that only starships like Enterprise were seen and that sometimes they were seen returning to base for resupply and repair can just as easily mean thirteen starships pushing beyond the frontier, zig zagging back when needed to distant starbases, on a five year deep space mission.

 

[Mysterion]

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.

I suppose it just might also mean that the captains of those starships being repaired were too occupied with say, their ships' repairs to be pulled into a court martial proceeding.

This. Also, there could be other conflicts preventing those particular officers from serving on Kirk's Courts Martial Board (prior association with Kirk or Finney, etc.).

I think the chart probably reflects repair/operational status of ships under the control of this particular base, and was probably not meant to be scrutinized quite as much as we have scrutinized it.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Sorry, you forgot to circle the court clerk who is showing us his back.

Of course you can either take this scene literal or chalk it off as a production necessity to have many actors in the club including the ones that were not supposed to be there, yet (and seriously, I hadn't noticed their presence in 30 years until the "Court-Martial" thread came up).

Well, I didn't forget the court baliff; I intentionally excluded him. (The discussion was regarding the availability of command personnel to serve on Kirk's Court Martial board, not about the availability of Starbase 11 court functionaries.)

It's funny: having those actors in the club is simply a "production necessity" that we are supposed to shrug off--but a mismatch between 1681/1831 vessel registry numbers or the presence of Star Ships that have 1600 numbers in orbit or up on the Status board requires all kind of crazy logical contortions and gymnastics to explain away those production necessity inconsistencies.