Forget Kirk's promotion; what about Pike?

[Mereope]

Yeah, I was hoping to not go down that road.

(And truly, Rear Admiral is a horrible title, made worse IMO by the addition of the Lower Half. Personally, I blame Lionel Richie.)

But it's the Lower Half that does all the work. It's those RADM of the Upper Half putting all the workload onto the Lower Halves under them.

 

[od0_ital]

Didn't Kirk kind of promote himsef?

No.

Prior to leavin' for Nero's ship, Pike turned command of the Enteprise over to Spock & promoted Kirk to first officer.

When Spock stepped down as the ship's captain after attackin' Kirk on the bridge, Kirk was in the highest position aboard the ship, which Sulu backed up, since he was there when Pike made his orders clear.

Its the same as Janeway givin' Starfleet ranks and authority to members of the Maquis while they were on Voyager, or Kira gettin' to wear a Starfleet commander's uniform while workin' with the Cardassian resistance durin' the Dominion War.

I vaguely remember the end of the film where Kirk was standing at the academy receiving something, was that the actual promotion?

That was him gettin' assisgned command of the Enterprise by Starfleet, after Pike was promoted to an admiral, kind of similiar to Picard bein' relieved by Jellico, or the flashback in TNG 'All Good Things...' when Picard was given command of the Enterprise-D. He was a captain before that, but the admiral's orders made it official that he was in command of the ship.

 

[Captain Fine]

Despite the field commissions and such, it is still somewhat contrived. But I'm fine with it.

 

[Vicki]

Pike didn't leave willfully. A shuttle was the only way to drop off Kirk, Sulo, and Red Shirt Olsen to go after the drill.

 

[thew40]

It was my impression that Pike had been a Captain for a while - commanding a few other starships before getting a hold of the flagship. He could have/would have been promoted before hand, but he just always avoided it.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I see it as a promotion that he was on track for anyway. He would have probably been promoted to soon whether Nero showed up or not.

 

[Shatmandu]

Everybody's had their attention focused on the likelihood or pros/cons of Kirk's rapid promotion from cadet to Captain (and for good reason). But have we missed the opportunity to nitpick Pike's promotion to Admiral?

On what apparently is his first outing on his brand new ship (his words), he willfully turns himself over as prisoner to Nero, who is able to extract some sort of security defense codes from him, rendering Earth's defenses (somehow) void and opening up Earth to potential destruction.

Only by the actions and extremely good luck of his subordinates (and someone who isn't even a commissioned officer yet) is Earth saved.

As reward for putting Earth is extreme danger of destruction... he's made Admiral!

So which is more unlikely - Kirk's promotion or Pike's?

Sounds like a "Sean Hannity" reading of the events.

Joe, easy

 

[Claudia]

Didn't Kirk kind of promote himsef?

Prior to leavin' for Nero's ship, Pike turned command of the Enteprise over to Spock & promoted Kirk to first officer.

[...]
Its the same as Janeway givin' Starfleet ranks and authority to members of the Maquis while they were on Voyager, or Kira gettin' to wear a Starfleet commander's uniform while workin' with the Cardassian resistance durin' the Dominion War.

Actually, I didn't quite get that, either. I mean whenever Picard wasn't on board the ship, no one called Riker "captain" although he was in command of the ship for the time of Picard's absence. (Let's not get into that BOBW-debacle where Riker even got demoted again...)

Also, when Data took command of that ship in Redemption II, he still maintained his rank of Lt. Commander - he wasn't promoted to captain.

So, while Pike might have appointed Spock captain (unnecessary IMO because Spock would have been in command anyway as Pike's first officer when Pike's not on board) and Kirk his first officer, that changed their position on the Enterprise, but not their official rank. The same applies to Kirk's later taking command.

I'd rather say that promotions and ranks are conveniently given out as plot devices - but not really fully thought through by TPTB.

As said already, Pike's another story - he's a seasoned officer. Who knows how long he already held the rank of captain before the Enterprise, so it might simply have been his turn for promotion (maybe expedited by his injury).

 

[propita]

I think Pike assumed that he would not be coming back and specifically did field-promote Spock to the rank of captain, not just that Spock was temporarily in command. Pike could've done that with "You have the con." He didn't. He made Spock captain and made Kirk first officer--he knew that one way or another, Kirk would make it off that drill and that Kirk would be the first officer that Captain Spock needed.

Or---Pike was in cahoots with old Spock the whole time somehow. Spock was always loyal to him. (I know that nothing showed any possibility at all that this happened--I'm just teasing)

 

[cbp44189]

Hey, John McCain gave up American secrets with no brain slugs involved and some people wanted to make him president of the United States.

Pike was obviously highly respected (witness the way all the cadets snapped to when he came into the bar) and I'm sure the promotion was for lifetime meritorious service. I have no problem with it.

Spoken like someone who has never been a prisoner of war. No brain slugs were involved, so what if he can't raise his arms above his head because of torture. What secrets did he give away? Just curious.

 

[JewelsNeeJulian]

Commodore is kinda one of those strange ranks. If memory services it's pretty much a land side equivalent of a Fleet Captain. feel free to correct me

 

[IndyJones]

Hey, John McCain gave up American secrets with no brain slugs involved and some people wanted to make him president of the United States.

Pike was obviously highly respected (witness the way all the cadets snapped to when he came into the bar) and I'm sure the promotion was for lifetime meritorious service. I have no problem with it.

Spoken like someone who has never been a prisoner of war. No brain slugs were involved, so what if he can't raise his arms above his head because of torture. What secrets did he give away? Just curious.

With out placing any judgements on McCain, and trying to keep this out of TNZ territory, here is what McCain said during his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention last September,

A lot of prisoners had it worse than I did. I’d been mistreated before, but not as badly as others. I always liked to strut a little after I’d been roughed up to show the other guys I was tough enough to take it. But after I turned down their offer, they worked me over harder than they ever had before. For a long time. And they broke me.

When they brought me back to my cell, I was hurt and ashamed, and I didn’t know how I could face my fellow prisoners. The good man in the cell next door, my friend, Bob Craner, saved me. Through taps on a wall he told me I had fought as hard as I could. No man can always stand alone

I don't believe that he gave away any secrets, but he did make an anti-American confession.

 

[cbp44189]

Hey, John McCain gave up American secrets with no brain slugs involved and some people wanted to make him president of the United States.

Pike was obviously highly respected (witness the way all the cadets snapped to when he came into the bar) and I'm sure the promotion was for lifetime meritorious service. I have no problem with it.

Spoken like someone who has never been a prisoner of war. No brain slugs were involved, so what if he can't raise his arms above his head because of torture. What secrets did he give away? Just curious.

With out placing any judgements on McCain, and trying to keep this out of TNZ territory, here is what McCain said during his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention last September,

A lot of prisoners had it worse than I did. I’d been mistreated before, but not as badly as others. I always liked to strut a little after I’d been roughed up to show the other guys I was tough enough to take it. But after I turned down their offer, they worked me over harder than they ever had before. For a long time. And they broke me.

When they brought me back to my cell, I was hurt and ashamed, and I didn’t know how I could face my fellow prisoners. The good man in the cell next door, my friend, Bob Craner, saved me. Through taps on a wall he told me I had fought as hard as I could. No man can always stand alone

I don't believe that he gave away any secrets, but he did make an anti-American confession.

Nothing Anti-American about it. He was just being honest.
Military policy is to withstand torture for as long as possible without divulging secrets. I would be impressed to see or hear of anyone on this board who can withstand torture without talking. Even the US government knows it is not possible to keep quiet. Just got to hold out as long as possible. Don't condemn the guy if you didn't go through it.

 

[IndyJones]

Nothing Anti-American about it. He was just being honest.
Military policy is to withstand torture for as long as possible without divulging secrets. I would be impressed to see or hear of anyone on this board who can withstand torture without talking. Even the US government knows it is not possible to keep quiet. Just got to hold out as long as possible. Don't condemn the guy if you didn't go through it.

You should really go to TNZ if you want to continue this...

 

[cbp44189]

Nothing Anti-American about it. He was just being honest.
Military policy is to withstand torture for as long as possible without divulging secrets. I would be impressed to see or hear of anyone on this board who can withstand torture without talking. Even the US government knows it is not possible to keep quiet. Just got to hold out as long as possible. Don't condemn the guy if you didn't go through it.

You should really go to TNZ if you want to continue this...

I digress. Just defending someone who spent seven years in a North Vietnamese prison camp. He has my appreciation. Not exactly a walk in the park.
I will not bring it up again. However I will not let him go undefended.

 

[Anticitizen]

Well, I think it's actually relevant to the discussion, being a real-world parallel to what happened in the film. Sorta. Close enough to discuss the merits of Pike's promotion after letting himself be taken hostage and putting Earth in jeopardy in any case.

 

[Omega_Glory]

I don't have a problem with Pike being promoted. He has obviously been in the service for a good many years..no wet-behind-the-ears cadet here. Besides, they made Kirk an admiral after TOS...there's precedence for that. There is no good reason to promote a cadet to captian of the fleet flagship which also happens to be the most advanced ship in the fleet.

 

[xman]

You shouldn't talk about Admiral Pike like that.

 

[Mereope]

It does seem a little odd, making Spock "captain". But without ranting about military ranks- a somewhat shopworn topic, it seemed that Pike was trying to impress upon both Spock and Kirk that they were in command. I don't think even Pike in all his badassness has the authority to give out field promotions to a captain's rank.

Trying to get a rational reading of it, it just appeared that Pike was trying to motivate two very young officers in the face of a very bad tactical situation. All that about them having to come and get him was just bravado/gallows humor. Based on Nero's past behavior, Pike had to have assumed he was going on a suicide mission and Spock and Kirk were both going to have assume duties way above their paygrade. They weren't "acting" anything. Pike wasn't coming back and Enterprise by default had a new Captain.

And since Pike showed outstanding judgment on those calls, amongst other things, he most assuredly had to get flag rank.

 

[Anticitizen]

Based on Nero's past behavior, Pike had to have assumed he was going on a suicide mission and Spock and Kirk were both going to have assume duties way above their paygrade. They weren't "acting" anything. Pike wasn't coming back and Enterprise by default had a new Captain.

Ah, the Mirror Universe method of promotion - axe your superior officer and get an instant rank increase