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Forget "Best of Both World..."

i am really fond of the first part of best of both worlds and in the pale moonlight and think they rank among the best of trek .
i think less of the second part of best of both worlds/.
i very much like the first two episodes of the vulcan arc but some of the last i could have done without.

i do rather like more the andorian romulan arc later on but i think what stands enterpsise well is the series of episodes starting with azati prime and till near the end of zero hour.

council has some moments as chilling as azati prime
 
You know, as wonderful as BoBW was, I felt that Family was a more powerful TNG episode as we got to see Picard in the aftermath. That's just me, though.

As for ENT, it had some very powerful episodes, and I personally feel that Damage was one of the most powerful (again, I guess it's an "aftermath" episode). Although I didn't enjoy the Vulcan storyline from S4 as much, I do recognize that it was very strong story-telling. I haven't watched it in a long time, I really should see it again! I'm interested to know what my impressions are of it now...
 
Well, I've always thought that ITPM and BOBW are both wildly overrated.

The "big twist" in "Moonlight" is completely obvious to everyone, apparently, except Sisko, who comes off looking like a complete moron who is easily manipulated. While it's not terrible, it's nowhere near the masterpiece that certain folks make it out to be.

And while BOBW Pt. 1 is a remarkably good episode, Pt. 2 is pretty awful. They resolve the entire Borg threat with a fairly typical technobabble solution which makes little sense. The one thing I did appreciate from BOBW is that they didn't completely push the reset button after the episode and were willing to explore the emotional fallout on Picard - something that Trek has never done very well.

Several ENT episodes (particularly from the fourth season) were far superior to these so-called "classics."
 
Those 3 part episodes of season 4 ENT were damn good. And long with IaMD are among the best Trek episodes ever. And as good as Vulcan & Andorian trilogies were, my favorite was the Augments arc.

But were they better than "The Best of the Both World" & "In the Pale Moonlight"? I don't know about that, those are classic episodes and very hard to top. BOBW cliff-hanger is still the top Trek moment of all time.
 
Re: Forget "Best of Both Worlds..."

I can only echo what's already been said. There are plenty of moments from ENT Season 3 & 4 which compare favourably with the best of Star Trek. From my perspective, nothing tops TBOBW. I was younger and less cynical when I first saw it. At the time, almost anything seemed possible. Would Picard survive or not? Was Patrick Stewart back next season or not? No internet to leak spoilers on back in 1990. It could be rose-tinted glasses but that's how I feel. I loved Enterprise and they might just have come up with something to rival the heights of TNG and DS9 had they gone on under the Coto, Reeves-Stevens, Sussman regime. I guess we'll just never know now.
 
I didn't go through this entire thread, so I don't know if this episode was mentioned, but one of my favorite episodes from TNG is "Yesterday's Enterprise." Incredible. I just read the book by the guy who co-wrote it, and it makes me appreciate the episode even more. Berman even said if he knew how great the episode would turn out, he would have saved it for the first TNG movie and would have made the ship from the past the Enterprise-A.

However, my favorite episodes in Trek come from ENT. I love Season 3's "Twilight." The chilling revelation that Earth did indeed get destroyed in the first timeline still rattles me each time I see our planet explode. If you can put all the episodes from Season 4 in a hat and scoop out a few to watch, you'll find something very entertaining.

It's difficult to compare episode of different series. To me, a good benchmark is how many times can you watch an episode without it getting old. I have seen each episode of ENT countless times, and it isn't even close to being old for me.
 
Eh, reset buttons both, though at least the entire point of Yesterday's Enteprise wasn't to glorify Picard.
 
Eh, reset buttons both, though at least the entire point of Yesterday's Enteprise wasn't to glorify Picard.
How did Twilight glorify Archer? If anything, it put Phlox in the spotlight. He was the one who came up with the idea and got it to work.
 
Phlox was hardly in it at all, he just carried the convenient reset button with him.

It glorified Archer in several ways.
  • T'Pol suddenly became too weak to lift something off of herself, thus relegating her to write and moan on the floor while Archer lifted it off of her in order to set him up to catch that wave which just happened to have some weird parasites in it that time.
  • Because Archer is turned into Captain Alzheimer, naturally he can't command the ship anymore, so T'Pol is given command. Under her leadership, Enterprise fails its mission and Earth is destroyed, followed by every other human colony. The conclusion there being that only Archer could have possibly lead Enterprise to success in its mission.
  • T'Pol gives up everything, including a generous offer by Soval to have Archer treated on Vulcan just so she can go live on a doomed planet and become nursemaid to Captain Alzheimer, who I might add is stuck in Ahab! mode.
  • After Phlox brings the rest button with him, the Xindi attack and under the command of Captain Tucker, the defense fails. Every single regular is shot and killed, though while each of them only needs one shot to be taken out, Archer is "da man", so he can take several hits to the center of mass and still have enough in him to trigger the reset button.

But basically what it comes down to is that Archer is shown to be so unexpendable and everyone else around him so incapable, that the mission will fail should he ever be killed or incapacitated. Compare this to Yesterday's Enterprise, where it really could've been any Federation ship, and it didn't even matter if the ship was destroyed and failed in its defense of that Klingon colony. It didn't matter who was in command of the ship either, because her captain was killed and a junior officer left in command.
 
The Vulcan arc in ENT S4 was probably the best thing about that season. But it doesn't hold a candle to BOBW, ITPM or even the final part of the Xindi arc.

Seriously, Archer finds the Kir'Shara in 2 fucking minutes and the ending is wrapped up far too neatly to be believable for my tastes. Everything else about it was gold. The eps built up Vulcan as a living, breathing world with an interesting culture, something I had seen in Trek for a while. Actually, I'd say that the Vulcan arc reminds me a lot of the Maquis 3-parter in S2 of DS9.

I do agree that Kir'Shara is the least interesting of the arc (The Forge and Awakening blew Kir'Shara out of the water) and needed more time and development. It could've been a four-part arc it was so good. Hell, I would've watched it for five. Definitely the best of season 4 and possibly the best Enterprise had to offer.

One of the reasons I was disappointed in Kir'Shara was the kidnapping of T'Pol. For some reason, they actively strove to weaken that character throughout the last two years of Enterprise. And if they were going to kidnap T'Pol, why not have a harrowing scene that shows Archer and T'Pau coming in to save her? They kidnap her and store her away as Archer and T'Pau show the Kir'Shara. What would've been great is if T'Pol had been there, wheeled around to give one of her captors the Vulcan neck pinch and then was overwhelmed - as the other Vulcans were - with the writings of the Kir'Shara.

Captain X, as for the glorification of Archer. What do you expect? He's the hero. I do think T'Pol suffered at the hands of the writers and I doubt they really needed to make her so weak - as in Bound and other episodes. I preferred her stable and strong. For example, I loved Awakening because she's the one who had it together.
 
Captain X, as for the glorification of Archer. What do you expect? He's the hero.
So? The other series managed not to glorify just one character over all the others. Even in TOS, which was made during the time when that kind of formula was popular, the other "supporting" characters managed to be "the hero" at some points, and both TNG and DS9 managed not to glorify any one character, espeically not at the expense of the others. So what I expect is at least that level of quality.

And don't even get me started on the "Super!Archer! Brings Enlightenment to the Noble Savages" arc...
 
Phlox was hardly in it at all, he just carried the convenient reset button with him.

It glorified Archer in several ways.

T'Pol suddenly became too weak to lift something off of herself, thus relegating her to write and moan on the floor while Archer lifted it off of her in order to set him up to catch that wave which just happened to have some weird parasites in it that time.

twilight_088.jpg


twilight_095.jpg


Why would T'Pol be able to lift something like this off her leg at this angle?

spock-1.jpg


She's in the same spot this guy was in.

Because Archer is turned into Captain Alzheimer, naturally he can't command the ship anymore, so T'Pol is given command. Under her leadership, Enterprise fails its mission and Earth is destroyed, followed by every other human colony. The conclusion there being that only Archer could have possibly lead Enterprise to success in its mission.
Enterprise nearly succeeded under T'Pol. They were literally seconds late to stop the attack. Hardly an example of T'Pol being reduced to incompetence. Every other Star Trek captain has had the role of Chief Hero. Why should Archer be the exception?

T'Pol gives up everything, including a generous offer by Soval to have Archer treated on Vulcan just so she can go live on a doomed planet and become nursemaid to Captain Alzheimer, who I might add is stuck in Ahab! mode.
I agree. This is a real :wtf: moment. But why stop there? Why didn't the Vulcans to offer to let the humans settle in their space where they can help protect the survivors?

In fact, why didn't the Vulcans help protect Earth? Weren't we their allies? Weren't they ours? They have warp 7 ships with advanced technology and weapons. And they didn't lift a finger!

Obviously they evacuated their own people before the Xindi returned or Soval wouldn't have been around to make the offer to T'Pol. Very nice way to make them look like total :censored:.

After Phlox brings the rest button with him, the Xindi attack and under the command of Captain Tucker, the defense fails. Every single regular is shot and killed, though while each of them only needs one shot to be taken out, Archer is "da man", so he can take several hits to the center of mass and still have enough in him to trigger the reset button.
Did you ever watch TOS? Kirk was always more resilient than anyone on the ship. Spock would be out of ideas when Kirk would figure out the solution. Or Spock would be incapacitated and Kirk would writhe and squirm his way across the floor and push the button or get the phaser to blow up or shoot the bad guy.

As for the defense of the settlement failing, it's not as if these ships had been getting regular oil changes in the last 12 years. They were being held together with spit and a prayer. Of course they had no chance against a well armed Xindi attack. And it's not like Trip had no ideas. They destroy a Xindi ship or two when the humans draw them into a trap.
What I considered inconsistent here is that Trip refuses to listen to Phlox and T'Pol offer an alternative to fighting (which Trip had to know was pretty much hopeless).

But basically what it comes down to is that Archer is shown to be so unexpendable and everyone else around him so incapable, that the mission will fail should he ever be killed or incapacitated.
I guess we see Enterprise in different lights. Archer only succeeds in the restored history where T'Pol "failed" in Twilight because:
1. Daniels doesn't help her.
2. Therefore, she never gets the opportunity that Archer gets to convince an influential member of the council that they have been lied to.

Compare this to Yesterday's Enterprise, where it really could've been any Federation ship, and it didn't even matter if the ship was destroyed and failed in its defense of that Klingon colony. It didn't matter who was in command of the ship either, because her captain was killed and a junior officer left in command.
I love "Yesterday's Enterprise," but it was just a stand-alone story.

In seasons 1 and 2, it's established that Archer will be the linchpin of the establishment of the Federation. And you seem to be suggesting that ENT's writers should have rendered him irrelevant in this epic story arc.

That was not going to happen. And rightly so.
 
I wasn't as impressed with Mirror Darkly and the Spinner stuff - I mean they were good, but they weren't ... epic in the way the Vulcan trilogy was. Maybe its just me? :vulcan:
Yeah I really don't think IaMD was as substantive or solid as the Vulcan trilogy. IaMD was fun and inventive but it wasn't as filling.

IaMD is not as substantive as the Vulcan trilogy thinks it is. Which is that trilogy's chief failing point. The Spiner trilogy may have had less interstellar politicking; but it had more depth, chiefly due to its focus on an intriguing villain - Arik Soong. The Vulcan trilogy didn't have any character of comparable interest.
 
Yet she was able to get on her back afterwards.
twilight_090.jpg

If Archer could lift it off of her, how is it that she, as a Vulcan and being 3 times as strong as a human, couldn't get herself out of this situation. Furthermore, how is it that only Archer got parasites from that wave even though the entire ship passed through it and T'Pol was a few feet away, and only a little over one foot away from where she'd been trapped to begin with? Why did no other wave before that have the mysterious parasites? Why did none after?

Enterprise nearly succeeded under T'Pol. They were literally seconds late to stop the attack. Hardly an example of T'Pol being reduced to incompetence.
Enterprise was damaged and unable to complete her mission because she took the helm herself and rammed a Xindi ship, severely damaging one of Enterprise's nacelles in the process. I was very much under the impression that they were trying to say that she shouldv't have (given Trip's treatment of her) and that Archer would have found some other way. Not to mention that at the end of the day, what the episode was basically saying was that since Archer wasn't able to carry out the Xindi mission, they failed and Earth was destroyed.

Every other Star Trek captain has had the role of Chief Hero. Why should Archer be the exception?
Picard kinda was, but not to this extend. Kirk moreso, and yet again, it wasn't at the expense of the other characters. Sisko, definitely not - DS9 was an ensemble show and the quality that brought really shows through, even today. Voyager is where that trend of the captain always being right even when showing poor leadership started.

Did you ever watch TOS? Kirk was always more resilient than anyone on the ship. Spock would be out of ideas when Kirk would figure out the solution. Or Spock would be incapacitated and Kirk would writhe and squirm his way across the floor and push the button or get the phaser to blow up or shoot the bad guy.
I've watched some episodes, but the ones most of the ones I've seen involved Kirk working together with Spock and McCoy or some of the others to solve the problem, and not doing it all on his own (or the mission fails). In fact, I seem to remember he had to get his ass handed to him by Spock in order for one situation to be resolved. I'm sure if it was Archer, they would've had it play out more like Torres and Vorik, where neither of them really won, or worse yet, Archer would've won, and just refused to kill Spock, or faked Spock's death, or soemthing along those lines.

What I considered inconsistent here is that Trip refuses to listen to Phlox and T'Pol offer an alternative to fighting (which Trip had to know was pretty much hopeless).
That's more what I was getting at. Kind of like with Cogenator, they had Trip act like Archer, only in that case it was supposed to be wrong to do so because the writers made it so blatently obvious what the correct course of action is supposed to be.

I guess we see Enterprise in different lights. Archer only succeeds in the restored history where T'Pol "failed" in Twilight because:
1. Daniels doesn't help her.
2. Therefore, she never gets the opportunity that Archer gets to convince an influential member of the council that they have been lied to.
Yet there was no reason why Daniels wouldn't have been able to, or why it wouldn't have been in his best interest to do so, since his future would end if Earth was destroyed and the Federation never formed. But since Daniels' primary function was to serve as a cheerleader for Archer... ;)

I love "Yesterday's Enterprise," but it was just a stand-alone story.
It was still a reset button that offered an alternate universe that occured because of something historical not occurring that should have, namely a Federation starship sacrificing itself in an attempt to protect a Klingon colony.

In seasons 1 and 2, it's established that Archer will be the linchpin of the establishment of the Federation.
Which was all part of the glorification of Archer over all the others. This is what made him Super!Archer!, because it made him the msot important character on the show, not because he actually did anythign to deserve it, but because he was supposed to be some kind of founding father of the Federation (that we never heard of before). Hell, even Picard evidently wasn't that historically important by himself, because in the AU Q showed him where he never rose above the rank of Lieutenant and thus never commanded Enterprise, he was fine, the crew of the E-D was fine, the E-D herself was fine, and the Federation was fine, despite the fact he'd played such a crucial role in so many things during the run of the series up to that point. As Q put it, in the grand scheme of things, he just wasn't that important - someone else took his place. To say that Archer was so important frankly killed any drama, because as a prequel, we already knew the outcome of anything major - we already knew the Xindi would fail because not only is Earth safe, but we never even heard of them before. Even if it's been the Romulans and the Romulan War, we already knew that Earth would win. What we didn't know, is if our characters would live through it or not, So by saying that Archer had to survive, it killed any real drama. Which, really all reset buttons do that anyway, because in the end we know that we'll be back to the status quo.
 
The commentary for Twilight even talks about the question of whether she was too weak to lift it off. The commentators wonder if Vulcan women are capable of lifting as much as other Vulcans or even humans. I think she's stronger than Archer. Even when she got into a better posture it would still have been difficult to lift it up.
 
When it comes to best episodes, I have to go with "In the Pale Moonlight" and "Best of Both Worlds" over any of the ENT episodes. I would like to say, however, that there were some truly solid ENT episodes, mostly thanks to Manny Coto (IMHO) who was allowed more freedom to write better storylines. Sometimes I just think of what ENT could have been if Manny had been burning the midnight oil from Day One.

J.
 
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