For those who say Trek promotes racism, elitiism or speciesism

[Myasishchev]

I don't think anyone has said Trek promotes racism, even condone it. Quite the opposite.

This is where i get jumped on (but), consider Ben Sisko, both of his wifes have been black, the aliens he is attracted to are black, I believe the sole except is the time he had sex with mirror universe Dax. That seems racist, at least on the part of the shows writers.

Since when is it racist to sexually prefer a phenotype? There's nothing particularly evil or even odd about sexually preferring someone dark skinned to someone fair skinned. If you extend racism that far, what stops you from extending it further? And then you get into silly areas, like being racist against blondes or tall people. Writing Sisko as not particularly into white women is as valid and harmless an authorial choice as, say, writing an Asian girl who likes Latinos or a Desi guy who's most attracted to Desi girls.

Now when they had Tuvok's wife be black, while still not enough to damn the show, that implies at least a little bit of thoughtlessness, since that was presumably arranged through Dial-a-Wife.

Deanna Troi could have easily have been full Betazed, and have require no more costuming or make-up budget than any "Human" character. A alien can be depicted through acting ability and dialog (and some really dark contacts), elaborate prostesis and masks are un-nessasary.

But this = true. They could probably do more background Vulcans, too. That's pretty clearly a less-involved prosthesis. As an added bonus, they're probably the only species other than Klingons that don't have to be explained, since everybody knows what they're about already: alternately looking either curious or constipated.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I don't think anyone has said Trek promotes racism, even condone it. Quite the opposite.

This is where i get jumped on (but), consider Ben Sisko, both of his wifes have been black, the aliens he is attracted to are black, I believe the sole except is the time he had sex with mirror universe Dax. That seems racist, at least on the part of the shows writers.

Since when is it racist to sexually prefer a phenotype? There's nothing particularly evil or even odd about sexually preferring someone dark skinned to someone fair skinned. If you extend racism that far, what stops you from extending it further? And then you get into silly areas, like being racist against blondes or tall people.

Actually, there isn't a race called 'tall' or 'blonde' since anyone of any race can be either.

Writing Sisko as not particularly into white women is as valid and harmless an authorial choice as, say, writing an Asian girl who likes Latinos or a Desi guy who's most attracted to Desi girls.

Now when they had Tuvok's wife be black, while still not enough to damn the show, that implies at least a little bit of thoughtlessness, since that was presumably arranged through Dial-a-Wife.

Not too mention, we never have saw an Asian couple. All Asian women (the major Asian characters are usually female, and in affairs or married to white men).

Not only with Ben Sisko, but Jake Sisko has only been shown to 'date' aliens who are portrayed by black women.

Harry Kim is only paired with white women. (One may even say that, 'Okay, he's at least shown in relationships where Asian men are usually shown to be asexual; but Kim is still shown to be a bit...wimpy at various times.')

The only two Hispanics on the show are paired with white partners.

(Hmmm, what is the agenda of these Trek writers...? )

Geordi has failed relationships (with white women), and was nearly about to consummate a brief relationship with an alien portrayed by....a black woman.

Worf (portrayed by a black actor) has a turtle on his head with other make-up additions...and is in a relationship with two aliens portrayed by white women.

Hmmm....

 

[Alex1939]

What's indefensible in universe or because it is a TV show is how sexist the franchise and new movie remain. Why so few women in positions of authority compared to men?

That's simple! Because men are superior to women.

 

[flemm]

Not too mention, we never have saw an Asian couple. All Asian women (the major Asian characters are usually female, and in affairs or married to white men).

Not only with Ben Sisko, but Jake Sisko has only been shown to 'date' aliens who are portrayed by black women.

Harry Kim is only paired with white women. (One may even say that, 'Okay, he's at least shown in relationships where Asian men are usually shown to be asexual; but Kim is still shown to be a bit...wimpy at various times.')

The only two Hispanics on the show are paired with white partners.

(Hmmm, what is the agenda of these Trek writers...? )

Geordi has failed relationships (with white women), and was nearly about to consummate a brief relationship with an alien portrayed by....a black woman.

Worf (portrayed by a black actor) has a turtle on his head with other make-up additions...and is in a relationship with two aliens portrayed by white women.

Hmmm....

I don't understand what you mean. Can you be more clear as to what point you are making about the Trek writers' tendencies?

I'm not sure what we can conclude from your list except that there are too many white characters on Trek as compared to other ethnicities, which is undoubtedly true, but not really a question of who is involved with whom.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Not too mention, we never have saw an Asian couple. All Asian women (the major Asian characters are usually female, and in affairs or married to white men).

Not only with Ben Sisko, but Jake Sisko has only been shown to 'date' aliens who are portrayed by black women.

Harry Kim is only paired with white women. (One may even say that, 'Okay, he's at least shown in relationships where Asian men are usually shown to be asexual; but Kim is still shown to be a bit...wimpy at various times.')

The only two Hispanics on the show are paired with white partners.

(Hmmm, what is the agenda of these Trek writers...? )

Geordi has failed relationships (with white women), and was nearly about to consummate a brief relationship with an alien portrayed by....a black woman.

Worf (portrayed by a black actor) has a turtle on his head with other make-up additions...and is in a relationship with two aliens portrayed by white women.

Hmmm....

I don't understand what you mean. Can you be more clear as to what point you are making about the Trek writers' tendencies?

I'm not sure what we can conclude from your list except that there are too many white characters on Trek as compared to other ethnicities, which is undoubtedly true, but not really a question of who is involved with whom.

Sure.

However, if you can clarify your last paragraph, specifically the line: 'but not really a question of who is involved with whom,' it'll give me a better idea of your question as I expand on my thoughts.

 

[The Inquisitor]

In regards to the writers agenda, I don't think they had one, not in regards to race anyway.

Are the scripts available in their original format? If they are it would be interesting to see weather the ethnicity of the characters they had written in had been decided at the outset. I have a feeling they were not and that the buck lies with the casting department. Even the best character ideas can be affected dramatically by casting agents (like the genius who decided to cast Keanu Reeves as the saviour of humanity in The Matrix **head in hands**)

I do feel that a little bit too much onus has been put on race in regards to Trek. Speaking from experience (and someone involved in a mixed race relationship) I find Trek to be one of the most open and up front programmes regarding race. At no point have I sat and felt uneasy or offended by any of the content or casting.

 

[Myasishchev]

This is where i get jumped on (but), consider Ben Sisko, both of his wifes have been black, the aliens he is attracted to are black, I believe the sole except is the time he had sex with mirror universe Dax. That seems racist, at least on the part of the shows writers.

Since when is it racist to sexually prefer a phenotype? There's nothing particularly evil or even odd about sexually preferring someone dark skinned to someone fair skinned. If you extend racism that far, what stops you from extending it further? And then you get into silly areas, like being racist against blondes or tall people.

Actually, there isn't a race called 'tall' or 'blonde' since anyone of any race can be either.

The concept of race is rather arbitrary: assigning a label to a phenotype like dark skin or geographic range like Africa or both. Of course, assigning "race" to blondes is goofy, but so is assigning "racism" to a preference for melanin in the skin but not doing so for melanin in the hair.

Not only with Ben Sisko, but Jake Sisko has only been shown to 'date' aliens who are portrayed by black women.

I dunno. There was that Dabo chick.

 

[flemm]

Sure.

However, if you can clarify your last paragraph, specifically the line: 'but not really a question of who is involved with whom,' it'll give me a better idea of your question as I expand on my thoughts.

I mean, if you have a very high percentage of white actors on a show, and only the occasional Asian or Hispanic actor, then if you look at the relationships, the minority characters will probably end up having relationships with white characters a lot of the time. But maybe there's really nothing to conclude from that other than the fact that these shows employ mostly white actors?

Sisko being involved with only black women makes your list, but then wouldn't Sisko also make your list if the opposite were true (see the example of Asian and Hispanic actors above)? And Geordi has relationships with black and white women, but that makes the list because the ones with the white women are possibly less successful than the one with the black woman. So if Sisko dated a white woman before marrying Kassidy, then that also could be construed as suspect? But then, if Sisko had a failed relationship with a black woman and then found happiness with a white woman, then that could easily be condemned as well. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[stj]

In Trek, aliens rarely are meant to be truly alien, partly because of cost but also because thinking it through scientifically is perceived as boring. All writers in modern Trek despise science. The aliens are supposed to be aspects of ourselves, projected outwards. Or just plot devices. As types of flaws or virtues, instead of imagined societies, they are necessarily uniform, if not outright simple. I don't think this particularly fosters racism.

Trek has cast many actors of contemporary US minorities, which is less racist than many shows which don't. They tend to be less important characters and there are restrictions on their mating habits. When Harry Kim was romancing a "white" woman, the actress was apparently told to affect an accent completely different from the accent of the other actors playing members of her supposed species! But she didn't have an accent when she played T'ealc's lover on SG-1. But such problem as endemic to Hollywood, not just modern Trek. Maybe that explains the roles of Musetta Vander, who I think comes from South Africa?

I'll wonder whether Trek fosters speciesism when there's another intelligent one.

Elitism and racism isn't the same thing. On the one hand, Trek has the Prime Directive, especially in its modern interpretation as mandating total cultural relativism. On the other hand, the Prime Directive is awfully like saying it's not our business if the next door neighbor beats his wife and rapes his children. Then there's the current popularity of humanitarian imperialism, where the US occupies Haiti or bombs Serbia in the name of humanity. I don't think you could really say modern Trek is any less confused than Hollywood, which is rather conservative on the subject.

Basically, they sell sex, which means a libertine attitude when it's profitable. In the movies and television, that means louche characters and triumphant badasses. But the tolerance stops when money is at stake. In the movies and television, that means authority figures do the right thing in the end, even if that means the Others get done in.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

In regards to the writers agenda, I don't think they had one, not in regards to race anyway.

Are the scripts available in their original format? If they are it would be interesting to see weather the ethnicity of the characters they had written in had been decided at the outset. I have a feeling they were not and that the buck lies with the casting department. Even the best character ideas can be affected dramatically by casting agents (like the genius who decided to cast Keanu Reeves as the saviour of humanity in The Matrix **head in hands**)

I do feel that a little bit too much onus has been put on race in regards to Trek. Speaking from experience (and someone involved in a mixed race relationship) I find Trek to be one of the most open and up front programmes regarding race. At no point have I sat and felt uneasy or offended by any of the content or casting.

Well, Trek is after all a television show....and it does depict different people of various backgrounds. Anyone doing a critical look at any show (usually in regards to how a certain group is represented) will have to look at the show critically.

Looking at scripts is basically looking at the show 'on the surface.' (Usually, the script changes anyhow).

Too, one has to look at the historical aspects of how individuals were depicted in relations to the show....and have things actually changed...and so forth.

Btw, I too have been in mixed-race relationships (Asian females, and white females....with a current interest in Eurasian females). However, I still feel Trek is lacking....or the fans and writers have certain standards for some and not others.

Sure.

However, if you can clarify your last paragraph, specifically the line: 'but not really a question of who is involved with whom,' it'll give me a better idea of your question as I expand on my thoughts.

I mean, if you have a very high percentage of white actors on a show, and only the occasional Asian or Hispanic actor, then if you look at the relationships, the minority characters will probably end up having relationships with white characters a lot of the time. But maybe there's really nothing to conclude from that other than the fact that these shows employ mostly white actors?

Sisko being involved with only black women makes your list, but then wouldn't Sisko also make your list if the opposite were true (see the example of Asian and Hispanic actors above)? And Geordi has relationships with black and white women, but that makes the list because the ones with the white women are possibly less successful than the one with the black woman. So if Sisko dated a white woman before marrying Kassidy, then that also could be construed as suspect? But then, if Sisko had a failed relationship with a black woman and then found happiness with a white woman, then that could easily be condemned as well. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Actually, I don't. I think you're going another direction.

That's okay.

Since I'm in the process of doing some errands, I will have to come back to this....and explain my thoughts.

 

[Myasishchev]

But what about Gondwanians? Those chicks are foxy.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Read at your own peril. This is long...

This also gives me some ideas on the 'Trek non-progression' project I hope to do in the future, maybe as a dissertation, or literary project...or both.

In reply to #68:

Since I'm kinda doing a zillion things at once; many of these are things I've said in previous posts on this board, and my thoughts may be sporadic. Further note, my major is Asian-American Studies, so my work (be it as a filmmaker, writer, scholar, etc) will primarily be focused on this subject, especially in regards to Asian-Americans and their relationships between African-Americans:

TOS (1960s)

We've had the first alleged interracial kiss between Uhura and Kirk in 'Plato's Stepchildren.' A big moment for television. (Oooo!)

Interestingly, another interracial kiss between Asian actress France Nuyen and Kirk is not even given a fanfare. (The idea that a relationship between a white male/Asian female is 'normal' or 'okay'...but there is something controversial between a black partner and white partner...and, in some ways, a black partner and a non-black partner).

During this time we've had the idea of the 'model minority' myth that put Asians in a position that they were hard workers, kept quiet, etc. Moreover, the documentary by Deann Borshay Liem tells of a Korean orphan who is adopted by a white family in 1966....and somewhat 'assimilated' by American (i.e. white) culture.

Even before then, during WWII, we've had interracial relationships between Asians (usually female) and whites (usually male)...and in some media, even up to today, it is usually an Asian female who automatically falls for a white male because he is white.

We've also had soldiers of Asian descent, Eddie Fung, who were integrated into the larger 'white' army...same with some Hispanics...and Native Americans.

Note: Just because these non-black groups were integrated doesn't mean that they were always on equal terms. However, they were given a step up than black individuals.

When TOS came around, it was something different. Something that we are definitely de-sensitized to because, even though we still have ways to go, TOS showed us a group of faces that got along and tried to learn about themselves through other 'alien' races.

However, looking back, we still have to pick up the pieces.

TOS, and that idea of the alleged first interracial kiss, still is focused on the black/white paradigm.

Again, nothing is said about the Elaan and Kirk kiss. Nothing is said about the Miramanee and Kirk relationship.

TNG (1980s)

A sequel to the 1960s show. The first season showed different faces (in some ways a lot more people of color; not just black, Asian, Hispanic, etc)...

'Code of Honor' which showcased a 'black' planet was considered racist by it's white writers...and many white fans on this board. (I only note one black fan on this board who didn't like it as well).

I don't see anything wrong with it. Interestingly, the film 'Star Trek: Insurrection' with it's idea of a whites-only paradise planet won't be scrutinized as much as this episode. Furthermore, Jonathan Frakes, who was vocal of this said episode will direct 'Insurrection.'

As the seasons went on, the go-go boots and miniskirts would go away...as would the 'kilts' for men. (As if it is wrong for a female to look sexy and be professional, and it's wrong to have a male dress 'exotic.) Madonna had the song, 'Do you know what it feels like for a girl' in which she says it's okay to be a boy, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading.

In order to be respected, women had to 'look like men'...hide their sexuality.

The only married couple in the franchise would be the stereotypical couple of the white male/Asian female.

A ST magazine would claim that dark-skinned individuals would make the best Klingons (interestingly, no one really remembers that)...and Geordi would have failed relationships with the attractive white women he pursued, and a very short-lived relationship with a black-Alien.

Worf (portrayed by black actor Michael Dorn) would actually be in a relationship with aliens who are portrayed by white females, possibly because he has a turtle on his head and is in make-up.

Meanwhile, Jonathan Frakes as Riker, will be, like Kirk before him, considered a 'stud' sleeping with women left and right.

DS9(1990s)

Our first major black captain on a Trek show. DS9 was (and still is by some) denounced as not being Trek, or not very good because it is set on a space station.

He took awhile to become 'captain'...and, interestingly, had insubordination by Kira in the early seasons; insubordination that Picard probably would have talked out of Kira.

Ben Sisko and his son Jake, would be regulated to have relationships with black women...or aliens portrayed by black women. (Yes, as a poster brought out, there was that one dabo girl who looks like an exotic white girl, or 'mixed').

Brown-skinned Bashir would be opposite mainly white females. (His features are not as Afro-centric, so he has relationships with aliens portrayed by white females).

VOY(1990s)

This show had it's first female commander as a major character; usually being shown as erratic.


This is also the first time we see a black actor portray a Vulcan; of course, the writers/casting people/producers have a black woman portraying his Vulcan wife. However, they do have Hispanic Robert Beltran and hispanic Roxanne Dawson with non-Hispanic partners; Harry Kim, portrayed by Garrett Wang would have all his partners and love interests white female.

ENT(2000s)

Empress Hoshi would sleep with two white males, and kiss one black male in the episode 'In a Mirror Darkly.'

I recall reading on this board that Hoshi was sooo hot, but it wasn't until she kissed the handsome Travis (hinting a relationship with him) that some, presumably white male fanboys starting decrying things like she puts the 'ho' in Hoshi, and the like).

As aforementioned, the two white males Kirk and Riker would be hailed as studs because they sleep with women left and right. With Hoshi (because it was shown she had a relationship with a non-white male, she became dirty, a whore). Nothing was said that the character--in that same episode--was already being a stereotypical 'dragon lady'...or 'sexual object.' (Similar to the way the Boomer character in BSG--Battlestar Galactica—was depicted.

Hoshi (in the 'normal' universe) would be said (by presumably white fanboys and girls) to have 'chemistry' with either of the white heroes: Jonathan Archer, Trip Tucker, or Malcolm Reed.

Travis Mayweather would be regulated to the background; not really having much to say. Treated as an 'other' on the show....similar to the way black characters were treated on shows in the 80s.

Daniel Dae Kim in a small part as recurring security officer, Chang, would go on to better things on LOST.


Golden Brooks, a black actress, would be a guest star on the show. An interesting opportunity to have Archer in a relationship with her character, but the writers have her married to an unseen (presumably black male). The story also takes place in a fictional 1930s or 40s era.


Another aspect of having Asians always equated with whites or 'honorary whites' as the term came up in literature: The episode E2 has a relative of Archer be (surprise, surprise) an Asian woman.

Films


'Star Trek: Insurrection' has been mentioned earlier. However, the 2009 film (as I've mentioned in other forum posts) did a good job of showing a diverse future. ('Showing' rather than 'telling'). Hopefully, they continue with this.

Novels

Interestingly, we have a few gay relationships, which were absent from the Trek television franchise.

All Asian characters (primarily female) have white male partners: T'Pryss (sp?), Kadohata, Ogawa, Keiko O'Brien. (Nothing new there).

They did have the new captain for VOY actually have a relationship with a man that was non-black. However, he turned out to be an alien. (The question comes up: If the captain was Asian and female, would the presumably white-male love interest still be present? Would their relationship be like the O'Briens, the epitome of the alleged perfect relationship?)


Geordi is getting older, and still being regulated to being a single individual...feeling sorry for himself because he can't find a suitable partner. Meanwhile, Picard and Riker are married individuals....and commanders of their own vessels.

Sidenotes

A few years ago, Memory Alpha, on many actor's pages or character pages have little blurbs saying 'the first black character to do so-and-so'. Interestingly, nothing about first Asian characters, or first Hispanic characters...

It was pulling strings... pin-point every little thing that anyone (who was black) was doing on the show that was 'a first' that supposedly no other medium had done...ignoring other people of color.

I haven't been on it recently, but I'm hoping it changed; because it was very odd. (Obviously, I'm going to have to research that later on).


Quick conclusions:


The stereotypical relationship, is the white-male/Asian female relationship. This is not to say that relationship is wrong, but throughout history, that has been used as a relationship that is considered normal and better by some (usually white males and some white females) than other interracial couples. That attitude has been present on these boards at times.


It has been said(particularly by a professor of mine who asked me to sit in on lecture about Asian representation) that some Asian women grow up thinking that they should automatically go out and get a white male as boyfriend or husband; Asian males are not as sexy, or should be sought.


I recall Will Smith had an issue with the film 'Hitch' because producers didn't want to have a white female love interest because of fear that some white individuals would be turned off; and that having a black female would have many to believe it was a 'black film.' Interestingly in that same film, Asian actress Navia Nguyen would be kissing up on a white actor and no one would bat an eye or say a thing.

Lastly, black characters are usually regulated to having onscreen relationships with other black individuals, in regards to Trek.

This list of observations, positive or negative, isn't conclusive.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Seriously through, there is a feel that Starfleet does promote cultural elitism. The message come across that "we support diversity ... except for (of course) diversity that we don't personally approve of.

Yep. The Federation is the club of aliens that are within the bounds of human mores. The others are out of bounds. Some of them seem to be only just barely out (Klingons), others are waaaay the frak out (Borg). But the whole cosmos of Star Trek revolves around humans - what they will and won't accept.

 

[Myasishchev]

It was pulling strings... pin-point every little thing that anyone (who was black) was doing on the show that was 'a first' that supposedly no other medium had done...ignoring other people of color.

Well, I doubt a show that premiered in 1967 was doing a lot of medium firsts with Asians, if you include Japanese television within the scope of the medium. Sulu wasn't the first Japanese guy to pilot a starship, for example. I'd strongly suspect, although I don't know for a fact, that there were a few Japanese films that acknowledged the existence of American occupier/Japanese civilian marriage relationships as well.

Btw, I think this helps explain, although it does not thoroughly explain, the skewed numbers of Asian female/white male partnerships compared to those with white female/Asian males: we didn't send women to storm the beaches of Guadalcanal, nor were single white women a historically significant segment of the population on Okinawa or Yokota or anywhere else in the Far East. Same deal with Korea and Vietnam. This is one of the key mechanisms behind the skew, anyway, although there's a healthy dose of racism in it as well, with an elaborate web of stereotypes that reinforce it.

 

[T'Girl]

And then you get into silly areas, like being racist against blondes or tall people.

Actually, there isn't a race called 'tall' or 'blonde' since anyone of any race can be either.

Not racism, but perhaps prejudice. Prejudice covers more circumstances than racism. Jim Kirk was prejudice against Klingons, while not totally ignorant of the species, Kirk had formed an opinion based upon a limit number of personal experiences with (pretty much) a sub-group of Klingons, the warriors. His heart felt declaration of "let them die," was towards the entire Klingon people, with the belief that they were all the same.

 

[Anwar]

Frankly, that line seemed really OOC for Kirk. After what he'd been through with Klingons in TOS, as well as being perfectly okay with the Klingons in "Final Frontier" I couldn't believe he'd want to condemn them ALL to death. Yes, it was his son but still.