For those who say Trek promotes racism, elitiism or speciesism

[Joel_Kirk]

This is where i get jumped on (but), consider Ben Sisko, both of his wifes have been black, the aliens he is attracted to are black, I believe the sole except is the time he had sex with mirror universe Dax. That seems racist, at least on the part of the shows writers.

Standards of the day. We rarely see mixed-race couples on TV. Even in commercials, couples are always one race, two genders.

On race: Well, TOS certainly cannot be accused of racism, what with Black, Indian, Latino and Asian flag officers, as well as a mixed-nationality/race/species bridge crew. The perceived misogyny comes from executive meddling, as Roddenberry originally cast a woman as the Enterprise's XO, but was vetoed by the network.

DS9: Sisko's preference for Black women doesn't bother me. I think that it can also be considered forced if everyone absolutely has to have a spouse of another species/ethnicity. What if Sisko just prefers Black women? Studies have shown that people are most physically attracted to what they have grown up with and what reminds them most of themselves. Besides, on DS9 we have Julian/Ezri, Worf/Jadzia, Jake/that dabo girl, Rom/Leeta, Jadzia/that captain with the transparent skull and who knows how many more.

I see that some people have taken issue with my lack of "in-universe" defense of Starfleet's position. Understandable, but as Trek is a real-world show created by human writers in the 20th and 21st centuries, the content of the show, the universe, has to be judged on the basis of the decisions of the writing staff, directors, producers and studio executives.

As for arguments made about the elitism in the show, I'd ask please that people list specific issues, rather than simply saying, "watch episode x." As my position is thus far that Starfleet/Star Trek is not racist/elitist, simply saying that won't do anything to change my mind, as I've seen those episodes but have not obviously come to the same conclusions as you. I'm willing to be proved wrong, but I need specifics, please.

Sisko's preference for Black women doesn't bother me.

Certainly no more than Picard's apparent preference for white women. If anything, I guess a partner of similar ethnicity just felt like the neutral choice from the writers' perspective. That's perhaps not very daring, but anyway I don't think it can be construed as racist.

Even quite recently, Undercovers was unusual for its choice of a black couple as protagonists and basically progressive in a mild sort of way, so I don't see why DS9 choosing to go with a black partner for its protagonist would be seen as racist, especially since Kassidy was Sisko's only real love interest in the whole series, Jennifer having died at Wolf 359 (other than that there was that one episode in season two with the telepathic projection or whatever, and I think that's it). If anything, featuring a black couple like that might be seen as somewhat progressive, though again in a mild sort of way.

From an ideological point of view TNG introduced a lot of problematic stuff that affected later shows, especially Voyager and ENT, though it is quite comforting to learn that it was all just a tv show. I am relieved

Well, as we always seem to look at everything in 'black and white' every Asian woman that is in Star Trek is paired up with a white male.

Since we assume that because Sisko is black, he must have a preference for black women. Just like Uhura in TOS must have a preference for black men.

However, in regards to Elaan of Troyius, Keiko Ishikawa, and Alyssa Ogawa...even Hoshi...they are automatically fall into the arms (or designated the perfect wife) for the white male.

Asian males are very few: Sulu (who really got to kick in the 2009 still has a small part); Chang (from ENT when to better things on some LOST island in the form of Daniel Dae Kim portraying an alter ego called Jin)....and Harry Kim is pathetic.

That goes along with the 'first interracial kiss' nonsense that was given a full fanfare...but nothing made of Kirk kissing the Asian-alien portrayed by France Nuyen.

In regards to the Native Americans; the same with 'The Paradise Syndrome': Marimannee (however her name is spelled) turns her back on the Indian that is love with her because she is fascinated (automatically) by the mysterious white male that happens on her village. Marimanee (yes, her name is spelled wrong on my part)...

Hispanics? (And I'm not talking about Euro-American actors given Spanish last names). Hmmmm....Chakotay?

I don't consider him a strong character, and obviously Robert Beltran didn't either.

I recall an article in one of the ST magazines that stated that 'dark-skinned' individuals make the best Klingons. (And, of course, the Klingons were usually portrayed by black males; before we actually had Sisko who was an actual human without any deficiencies and was actually a major character).

We can go on and on...

Don't get me wrong, Trek broke grounds with a multi-racial cast, but we have to remember the people writing the show were...(are?) primarily 20th century white males who have their idea of what the future holds.

I probably mentioned it before, but we see different colors, ages, and genders of people in the 2009 film.

 

[flemm]

I would imagine he claims dual citizenship. He seems to be able to serve in their military at the drop of a hat.

I think there are plenty of examples of cultural elitism on TNG, but I'm not sure this is a great example because Picard does make a compelling argument that there are individuals serving on the Enterprise from a lot of different cultures and that they all take an oath to do their duty, so really Worf is no exception. Picard also just basically puts a reprimand on Worf's record or whatever, right? It's not like he tries to get him court-martialed.

Picard is only involved because the Klingon chancelor asked him to perform specific duties and made it clear that he would consider it to be a grave insult if Picard refused.

It's easy not to sympathize with Picard here, and anyway the episode is perfectly content to let us sympathize with Worf, but I think Picard comes across as a stern commanding officer rather than a cultural elitist.

I no longer remember where I heard this, it might have been the DS9 companion, but the writers had nothing to do with all of Sisko's love interests being black. That came straight from Avery Brooks, who insisted on it.

I have never read this, but I am not surprised to hear it. It just goes to show you that there are so many different ways one can look at this kind of thing.

 

[BillJ]

It was Picard's own opinion of Worf's actions that were on display when he chewed him out, not the Federation's own views. Sisko did the same thing when he chewed him out for trying to honor his brother's suicide wish.

I doubt you make captain of the 'flagship' if your political views don't mesh with those higher up in the chain of command. Those higher up in the chain of command don't get there if there political views don't mesh with civilian leadership.

So I think Picard is a good indication of Federation 'opinion'.

 

[BillJ]

I would imagine he claims dual citizenship. He seems to be able to serve in their military at the drop of a hat.

I think there are plenty of examples of cultural elitism on TNG, but I'm not sure this is a great example because Picard does make a compelling argument that there are individuals serving on the Enterprise from a lot of different cultures and that they all take an oath to do their duty, so really Worf is no exception. Picard also just basically puts a reprimand on Worf's record or whatever, right? It's not like he tries to get him court-martialed.

Picard is only involved because the Klingon chancelor asked him to perform specific duties and made it clear that he would consider it to be a grave insult if Picard refused.

It's easy not to sympathize with Picard here, and anyway the episode is perfectly content to let us sympathize with Worf, but I think Picard comes across as a stern commanding officier rather than a cultural elitist.

I can see your points... but the only thing that Worf was guilty of was being AWOL and if he was off-duty it would've been a struggle to make that stick. He confronted Duras' on a Klingon vessel and challenged him per Klingon law and tradition, let's be honest... Duras would've never been brought to justice in the Federation. Now if Ensign Robbie down in Hydroponics committed the same crime aboard the Enterprise and Worf chose to hunt him down and murder him in his quarters, then I can see where a problem arises. Because Worf would've deprived a Federation citizen of the due process he is guaranteed under Federation law.

Picard took the issue to the Klingon High Council and they said Worf acted within the parameters of Klingon law and culture. By reprimanding Worf (for honoring his cultural obligations), Picard essentially spit on his cultural beliefs.

 

[JRoss]

Hmm, I'd say that in the Klingon hierarchy, pre-discommendation Worf ranked about a duke or an earl. I'd say that according to Klingon law Worf was justified, but I can see Picard's point of view. He has a ship to run, and credibility to maintain, not just between the Klingons and the Federation, but also among all other governments.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

DS9: Sisko's preference for Black women doesn't bother me. I think that it can also be considered forced if everyone absolutely has to have a spouse of another species/ethnicity. What if Sisko just prefers Black women?

Exactly.

Having a preference for romantic partners of a certain race is not racist. If Sisko likes black women, that doesn't mean he hates those of any other race.

This also applies to any one of us. In terms of the women I date, I don't have a preference for any specific race, but if I did, would that make me racist? Hardly.

 

[BillJ]

Hmm, I'd say that in the Klingon hierarchy, pre-discommendation Worf ranked about a duke or an earl. I'd say that according to Klingon law Worf was justified, but I can see Picard's point of view. He has a ship to run, and credibility to maintain, not just between the Klingons and the Federation, but also among all other governments.

What credibility? Worf did nothing that disrupted operations aboard the Enterprise and the incident happened within a single government, the Klingons.

Worf's rank within the Empire has nothing to do whether his actions were justified or not. He was a citizen following the laws of his culture.

 

[JRoss]

Yes, but Picard has to consider the perceptions and values of other cultures. You can bet that the Romulans or Cardassians could find some way to spin the incident and slander Starfleet.

 

[T'Girl]

Deanna Troi could have easily have been full Betazed, and have require no more costuming or make-up budget than any "Human" character.

The reason she WASN'T is that actual telepathy is a useful ability that would have solved quite a few problems during the series.

My point was to the cost and effort of depicting an alien verses depicting a Human. It isn't necessary to have an actor spend hours in a make-up chair and end up looking like a Cardassian for there to be aliens on the show. Kes was just as much of a Ocampa after TPTB restyled her hair, as she was with her ears showing.

 

[Marten]

DS9: Sisko's preference for Black women doesn't bother me. I think that it can also be considered forced if everyone absolutely has to have a spouse of another species/ethnicity. What if Sisko just prefers Black women?

Exactly.

Having a preference for romantic partners of a certain race is not racist. If Sisko likes black women, that doesn't mean he hates those of any other race.

This also applies to any one of us. In terms of the women I date, I don't have a preference for any specific race, but if I did, would that make me racist? Hardly.

'

Most people marry people from their own race today, it wouldn't be too strange if it were the same in the future (Same goes for species, I guess).

 

[barnaclelapse]

I think there have been sincere efforts on the parts of the creative minds involved over the years to give the Trek franchise more depth and address issues involving sexism, racism, cultural elitism and the like. It's just been a very slow kind of progress, and that can be found in all entertainment. When you're dealing with white corporate America gaining a foothold requires baby steps. That sucks, but it's just the way it is. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be frustrated enough about it to push harder. I hope they do.

I know enough about the history of television and film to know that there have been gains made. I also know that there's still a ton of ground to cover, but I then believe that we're going to get there. It just takes time. And that's not fair, but it's certainly better than nothing.

In the meantime I'm not going to stop enjoying something just because the standards from its era are different from ours. That doesn't mean I automatically forgive casting/writing sins of the past for this movie or that TV show, but I also don't feel like disqualifying my ability to enjoy something just because it isn't up to the standards of today.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I think there have been sincere efforts on the parts of the creative minds involved over the years to give the Trek franchise more depth and address issues involving sexism, racism, cultural elitism and the like. It's just been a very slow kind of progress, and that can be found in all entertainment. When you're dealing with white corporate America gaining a foothold requires baby steps. That sucks, but it's just the way it is. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be frustrated enough about it to push harder. I hope they do.

I know enough about the history of television and film to know that there have been gains made. I also know that there's still a ton of ground to cover, but I then believe that we're going to get there. It just takes time. And that's not fair, but it's certainly better than nothing.

In the meantime I'm not going to stop enjoying something just because the standards from its era are different from ours. That doesn't mean I automatically forgive casting/writing sins of the past for this movie or that TV show, but I also don't feel like disqualifying my ability to enjoy something just because it isn't up to the standards of today.

Definitely...definitely...

 

[neozeks]

Picard reprimands Worf for handling a Klingon issue in a Klingon manner in Reunion. Duras murdered K'Ehleyr and Worf kills him in ritual combat... aboard a Klingon vessel. The Klingon High Council even considered it a closed case. At most, Picard should've tagged him with being AWOL and left the sermon in his quarters.

But isn't that exactly what happened? As I did in that other thread where this issue came up, I have to contest the idea that what Picard has a problem with is Worf killing Duras, as oposed to how that action interfered with his duties. From the script:

PICARD
The Enterprise crew currently
includes representatives from
thirteen planets, Mister Worf.
They each have their individual
beliefs and values and I respect
them all. But every member of
the crew has chosen to serve
Starfleet. If anyone cannot
perform his duties because of the
demands of his society, he must
resign.

Worf disregarded his duty and orders by abandoning his post and interfering in a delicate political situation his captain was a part of. Of course, it's probable Picard finds the murder morally abhorent from his POV and that's partly what motivates him to chew Worf out, but that's not what he's actually talking about.

And everyone seems to forget Picard was going to let Worf go ahead with ritual suicide in a different episode. How is that culturally elitist?

 

[Gary7]

In most Star Trek episodes, it is the humanoid who is the hero. Why? Because WE are human. It is easier to relate to the humanoid hero... However, there have been episodes with aliens having the hero or focus role... and we can relate to them. Maybe not as easy as if they were human, but close enough.

There are episodes in various Star Trek series that directly address the racial discrimination issue. Starting with TOS and "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" is an extremely obvious example (although there were a few others), all the way up to ENT.... Each series had one or more episodes addressing racial inequality existing, but with the people in focus trying to overcome it... and sometimes winning.

All in all, Star Trek generally depicts racial and gender equality in the Federation (with some exceptions back in TOS, which were unavoidable due to the times), with the discrimination and inequality being present with other species who haven't achieved that level of equal rights. So... I don't really get where the OP is coming from.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

All in all, Star Trek generally depicts racial and gender equality in the Federation (with some exceptions back in TOS, which were unavoidable due to the times), with the discrimination and inequality being present with other species who haven't achieved that level of equal rights.

I think the 2009 film did more of 'showing' us this, rather than telling us. On the other hand, the other shows did more of 'telling' us, rather than showing...

Of course, as another poster mentioned gains indeed have been made; and (in regards to television, particularly Star Trek) things could be better.

 

[flemm]

Worf disregarded his duty and orders by abandoning his post and interfering in a delicate political situation his captain was a part of. Of course, it's probable Picard finds the murder morally abhorent from his POV and that's partly what motivates him to chew Worf out, but that's not what he's actually talking about.

There is also the overall tone and presentation of the story to consider. I doubt there are too many people who watch this episode and think to themselves, "wow, what a gross dereliction of duty on Worf's part, how can Picard put up with that, wtf?!?!?!?" It's all about Worf, really, he is the hero, he is the one we identify with here.

The scene with Picard mostly exists to underline the fact that Worf broke with Starfleet regulations to do the honorable thing by Klingon standards, which is significant for him at this point since his Klingon manhood has been called into question and he is still a bit torn between his Klingon heritage and his Starfleet career. If Picard doesn't object and if there are no consequences at all then this is less obvious.

Basically Picard plays the role of Maverick's commanding officer in Top Gun, when he gets pissed off at Mav for doing a fly-by without authorization. If Mav doesn't get chewed out by by his CO, then the character-building is incomplete. (Does everybody do it? Is it considered to be ok?)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It was Picard's own opinion of Worf's actions that were on display when he chewed him out, not the Federation's own views. Sisko did the same thing when he chewed him out for trying to honor his brother's suicide wish.

He also did the same thing to Dax when she went off with Kang and Koloth to kill the Albino.

As far as culture clash as an obstacle of diversity, the Klingons are the primary recurring example; humans don't "get" Klingon morals and Klingons have nothing but contempt for human morals. And this is where Star Trek begins to seem flawed/elitist in this regard: rather than take a pragmatic view of the situation and say "Before you go, make sure you sign that release form that says you're acting independently of Starfleet directives. And don't forget to punch out for the day," we get this utopianist moralizing from Picard et al about how Worf/Dax are supposed to put their alien cultural obligations aside in order to serve in Starfleet.

What can you conclude from this, other than Starfleet--or at least some of its officers--feel the fleet is intended to uphold a certain subset of HUMAN morals within the Federation's sphere of influence? You don't see the entire Voyager crew being reprimanded by Tuvok for eating meat, do you?

^Except for the part where a Starfleet officer directly influenced the balance of power of a sovereign and wholly seperate nation.

If the Empire was a democracy, Worf could have done this by simply voting in the next election. Since killing Duras is not actually illegal under Klingon law, as far as the Empire is concerned it'd be no different if Duras slipped on a banana peel and fell on his sword. The Federation would thus consider this an internal Klingon matter and never think twice of it.

The real question is, would they have reacted this way if Duras was killed by a pissed off HUMAN. I tend to think the Klingons might not (although Dax could probably get away with it) and therefore neither would the Federation. But Worf is a Klingon citizen by birthright, and therefore has the right to throw down when he has a good reason, just like any other Klingon.

 

[flemm]

What can you conclude from this, other than Starfleet--or at least some of its officers--feel the fleet is intended to uphold a certain subset of HUMAN morals within the Federation's sphere of influence?

The standards of the Federation, of which humans are an important component, but then it is hardly surprising that the members of Starfleet, a Federation organization, would be required to uphold those standards.

This is what Worf signed on for when he joined Starfleet. While he is on duty, I don't really see that there is anything elitist about Picard expecting him to do his duty and reprimanding him if he doesn't.

This seems to come up with the Klingons fairly often because they are not a part of the Federation and are ok with killing in situations that would normally be illegal or be considered immoral in the Federation. But then it isn't really surprising that the whole issue of killing might be the one that sparks a little controversy.

And then there is the fact that, from a dramatic point of view, somebody somewhere objecting is important: that is what allows the meaning of Worf's (and Jadzia's) actions to be developed. It's a bit like the dickish admirable who is always around to make it clear that what Captain Kirk or Sisko or whoever is about to do will be a clear violation of their orders. The whole point, really, in these situations, is for there to be a bit of conflict and disagreement on the issue of what is right, so the meaning of the main character's actions comes into clearer focus.

 

[BillJ]

The standards of the Federation, of which humans are an important component, but then it is hardly surprising that the members of Starfleet, a Federation organization, would be required to uphold those standards.

This is what Worf signed on for when he joined Starfleet. While he is on duty, I don't really see that there is anything elitist about Picard expecting him to do his duty and reprimanding him if he doesn't.

But was Worf guilty of dereliction of duty (or being AWOL) to begin with? On one hand, there is no evidence that Worf is even on duty when he leaves the Enterprise to face Duras. On the other hand, Worf is the chief of security. Has a murder committed on his watch and has only a single suspect, Worf asks K'Ehleyr if it was Gowron and she answers "no" before she dies. As security chief it is his job to attempt to apprehend the suspect who committed the crime, and Duras never denies committing the murder. Does his duty end when the suspect leave the Enterprise?

The episode does lend itself to some healthy debate...

 

[flemm]

On one hand, there is no evidence that Worf is even on duty when he leaves the Enterprise to face Duras.

Well, I think that is how we are intended to understand Worf's gesture of removing his Starfleet insignia/communicator when he leaves to face Duras. I think that's also intended to strongly suggest that Worf knows that what he is about to do will be in violation of his duty/orders.

It's interesting to compare with the DS9 episode Tacking into the Wind, which is in many ways the culmination of this whole storyline. When he confronts Gowron, Worf repeats the gesture of removing the insignia and says, "What I say now, I say as a member of the House of Martok, NOT as a Starfleet officer."

Also, in the context of this discussion, Sisko's attitude in Tacking is noteworthy: "Do whatever it takes, Mr. Worf," meaning of course, "Kill Gowron if you have to." So at the very least I think we can say that Sisko's view of the appropriateness of certain, errr... Klingon customs... has evolved somewhat.