For those who say Trek promotes racism, elitiism or speciesism

[JRoss]

T'Girl about your point of aliens looking human. That's fair, and I agree with you. It raises the point of who are we to say that we haven't seen more aliens on the show, then? What if Admiral X seen on a viewscreen isn't a Zaldan or Betazoid?

I also understand your point about women being relegated to lesser roles in Starfleet. However, as evidence for female empowerment, consider that since the TOS era ended, there have been shown onscreen 11 female admirals. The only three Fleet Admirals of Starfleet shown from TNG forward have been women.

There have been at least 23 female captains since TOS, as well, including Tryla Scott, who had she not been parasite-infected, would have likely been a legend like Kirk and Picard.

 

[Pauln6]

T'Girl about your point of aliens looking human. That's fair, and I agree with you. It raises the point of who are we to say that we haven't seen more aliens on the show, then? What if Admiral X seen on a viewscreen isn't a Zaldan or Betazoid?

I also understand your point about women being relegated to lesser roles in Starfleet. However, as evidence for female empowerment, consider that since the TOS era ended, there have been shown onscreen 11 female admirals. The only three Fleet Admirals of Starfleet shown from TNG forward have been women.

There have been at least 23 female captains since TOS, as well, including Tryla Scott, who had she not been parasite-infected, would have likely been a legend like Kirk and Picard.

I never said there weren't women, I just suggested comparing the number of women in certain positions to the number of men in similar positions - similar to the legal test that you would use in the real world for sex discrimination cases. Classic example is Tasha. Go back and look see how many female security officers she had on her team. Another one is Janeway - if she'd had her way, how many women would she have had in her senior crew (I'm talking 'Starfleet' officers here)? And how many female officers have featured at least partially to be the love interest of one of the men? The franchise may have improved over the years but by any standards of the day it has always been sexist. No make-up contraints affect casting the sexes equally.

 

[flemm]

Sisko's preference for Black women doesn't bother me.

Certainly no more than Picard's apparent preference for white women. If anything, I guess a partner of similar ethnicity just felt like the neutral choice from the writers' perspective. That's perhaps not very daring, but anyway I don't think it can be construed as racist.

Even quite recently, Undercovers was unusual for its choice of a black couple as protagonists and basically progressive in a mild sort of way, so I don't see why DS9 choosing to go with a black partner for its protagonist would be seen as racist, especially since Kassidy was Sisko's only real love interest in the whole series, Jennifer having died at Wolf 359 (other than that there was that one episode in season two with the telepathic projection or whatever, and I think that's it). If anything, featuring a black couple like that might be seen as somewhat progressive, though again in a mild sort of way.

From an ideological point of view TNG introduced a lot of problematic stuff that affected later shows, especially Voyager and ENT, though it is quite comforting to learn that it was all just a tv show. I am relieved

 

[erastus25]

How about sexism in the newer shows? Very very very few females in authority positions, even in the newer shows.

Feminists often say that you can tell if a show is sexist with a simple question: Do two female characters ever talk about anything with one another other than men, children or family? If so, does it actually move the plot at all?

Surprisingly few Star Trek episodes pass this test.

 

[flemm]

How about sexism in the newer shows? Very very very few females in authority positions, even in the newer shows.

Feminists often say that you can tell if a show is sexist with a simple question: Do two female characters ever talk about anything with one another other than men, children or family? If so, does it actually move the plot at all?

Surprisingly few Star Trek episodes pass this test.

Just off the top of my head, wouldn't a lot of the later episodes of Voyager pass this test, due to Seven and Janeway being so heavily featured?

Regardless, I think it's a lot easier to make the case that Trek is sexist than racist, going all the way back to its origins. A lot of the time it blatantly is, though perhaps not unusually so when compared to the rest of popular culture.

 

[erastus25]

How about sexism in the newer shows? Very very very few females in authority positions, even in the newer shows.

Feminists often say that you can tell if a show is sexist with a simple question: Do two female characters ever talk about anything with one another other than men, children or family? If so, does it actually move the plot at all?

Surprisingly few Star Trek episodes pass this test.

Just off the top of my head, wouldn't a lot of the later episodes of Voyager pass this test, due to Seven and Janeway being so heavily featured?

Regardless, I think it's a lot easier to make the case that Trek is sexist than racist, going all the way back to its origins. A lot of the time it blatantly is, though perhaps not unusually so when compared to the rest of popular culture.

http://http//tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBechdelTestYou are correct. The Bechdel Test isn't a comprehensive test. It's more intended to draw your attention to the fact that while male characters interacting and developing the plot is common in virtually every episode, you have to really think to say the same about female characters, in many cases. Plus, we had scenes like this in TNG, that would have been normal in the '60s but are practically sexploitation by the '90s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoBoMvY0U10

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBechdelTest - some info on it. Mine has a corollary not included here but used by some.

The thing that bothers me is that Trek was ahead of its time in SOME ways in the '60s but as time has progressed it seems to have lost that lead and fallen into line with most of popular culture regarding sexism.

 

[flemm]

The thing that bothers me is that Trek was ahead of its time in SOME ways in the '60s but as time has progressed it seems to have lost that lead and fallen into line with most of popular culture regarding sexism.

Well I'm certainly aware that TOS' multicultural crew was progressive for its time, but I'm more reticent when it comes to TOS being ahead of its time on the subject of sexism. Despite its blatant sexism from our contemporary point of view, perhaps it was slightly less sexist than the rest of popular culture at the time, I certainly wasn't alive then, so it's a little hard for me to judge. But anyway sexism doesn't seem to have ever been Trek's strong suit.

 

[erastus25]

The thing that bothers me is that Trek was ahead of its time in SOME ways in the '60s but as time has progressed it seems to have lost that lead and fallen into line with most of popular culture regarding sexism.

Well I'm certainly aware that TOS' multicultural crew was progressive for its time, but I'm more reticent when it comes to TOS being ahead of its time on the subject of sexism. Despite its blatant sexism from our contemporary point of view, perhaps it was slightly less sexist than the rest of popular culture at the time, I certainly wasn't alive then, so it's a little hard for me to judge. But anyway sexism doesn't seem to have ever been Trek's strong suit.

Whoops! Read your original statement as "I think it's a lot easier to make the case that Trek is racist than sexist..." Now that I see that I'm in total agreement!

 

[BillJ]

As for arguments made about the elitism in the show, I'd ask please that people list specific issues, rather than simply saying, "watch episode x." As my position is thus far that Starfleet/Star Trek is not racist/elitist, simply saying that won't do anything to change my mind, as I've seen those episodes but have not obviously come to the same conclusions as you. I'm willing to be proved wrong, but I need specifics, please.

Picard reprimands Worf for handling a Klingon issue in a Klingon manner in Reunion. Duras murdered K'Ehleyr and Worf kills him in ritual combat... aboard a Klingon vessel. The Klingon High Council even considered it a closed case. At most, Picard should've tagged him with being AWOL and left the sermon in his quarters.

 

[Satyrquaze]

^Except for the part where a Starfleet officer directly influenced the balance of power of a sovereign and wholly seperate nation.

 

[erastus25]

^ but not while acting as a starfleet officer and within the statutes, laws and culture of that nation.

 

[Satyrquaze]

I guess the question becomes: "When is a Starfleet officer not a Starfleet officer?"

Because Picard had a different take on it than you do.

 

[BillJ]

^Except for the part where a Starfleet officer directly influenced the balance of power of a sovereign and wholly seperate nation.

Which Picard was already in the process of doing. Worf is not only a Starfleet officer, but a Klingon citizen by birth. You saying that he didn't have a more legitimate right to affect the outcome of his people's leadership struggle than Picard did?

 

[Satyrquaze]

^ Because the Chancellor asked him to?

 

[erastus25]

^Except for the part where a Starfleet officer directly influenced the balance of power of a sovereign and wholly seperate nation.

Which Picard was already in the process of doing. Worf is not only a Starfleet officer, but a Klingon citizen by birth. You saying that he didn't have a more legitimate right to affect the outcome of his people's leadership struggle than Picard did?

Was he a Klingon citizen at that point though? Or had he become a Federation citizen after spending his life with the hew-mans?

 

[BillJ]

^ Because the Chancellor asked him to?

You didn't answer the question...

 

[Satyrquaze]

Well. by Starfleet standards, Worf's reasons for getting directly involved were less pure than say Picard's.

Since according to Picard in STFC Starfleet officers are above doing things out of revenge.

 

[BillJ]

^Except for the part where a Starfleet officer directly influenced the balance of power of a sovereign and wholly seperate nation.

Which Picard was already in the process of doing. Worf is not only a Starfleet officer, but a Klingon citizen by birth. You saying that he didn't have a more legitimate right to affect the outcome of his people's leadership struggle than Picard did?

Was he a Klingon citizen at that point though? Or had he become a Federation citizen after spending his life with the hew-mans?

I would imagine he claims dual citizenship. He seems to be able to serve in their military at the drop of a hat.

 

[RandyS]

I don't think anyone has said Trek promotes racism, even condone it. Quite the opposite.

This is where i get jumped on (but), consider Ben Sisko, both of his wifes have been black, the aliens he is attracted to are black, I believe the sole except is the time he had sex with mirror universe Dax. That seems racist, at least on the part of the shows writers.

I no longer remember where I heard this, it might have been the DS9 companion, but the writers had nothing to do with all of Sisko's love interests being black. That came straight from Avery Brooks, who insisted on it.

 

[Anwar]

It was Picard's own opinion of Worf's actions that were on display when he chewed him out, not the Federation's own views. Sisko did the same thing when he chewed him out for trying to honor his brother's suicide wish.