fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*!!!

[bryce]

Fuck.

What a nightmare.

http://singularityhub.com/2010/05/1...-state-patients-are-actually-conscious-video/

In a recent report in the New England Journal of Medicine, researchers from the MRC Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit of the University of Cambridge and the Coma Science Group at the University Hospital of Leige describe their use of fMRI technology to scan the brains of patients diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state. Surprisingly, they found that a small proportion of the patients could understand and respond to a series of questions even though they showed no outward signs of consciousness. This finding is sure to rewrite the textbook on defining and diagnosing disorders of consciousness. Check out the video below, where a BBC reporter demonstrates the test performed on the patients and interviews Dr. Adrian Owen, one of the authors of the report.

http://singularityhub.com/2010/05/1...-state-patients-are-actually-conscious-video/

I always thought that folks like Terry Schiavo were brain dead...not *aware*!?

I dunno if I'd want to plug pulled anyway in that case!

Maybe bow that we know...with brain-implants and brain-computer interface technology...we can re-connect these people with the outside world...

At least give them a choice if they wanna keep on living this way,,,,

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Terri Schiavo would almost certainly not have been one of those with signs of consciousness, given that most of her brain matter was gone. This does sound like it can be a useful tool for individuals in a PVS, though.

 

[kes7]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Terri Schiavo would almost certainly not have been one of those with signs of consciousness, given that most of her brain matter was gone.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I have to say that "almost certainly" isn't good enough for me.

Far better to err on the side of not ending life, IMO.

 

[John Picard]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Terri Schiavo would almost certainly not have been one of those with signs of consciousness, given that most of her brain matter was gone.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I have to say that "almost certainly" isn't good enough for me.

Far better to err on the side of not ending life, IMO.

The autopsy proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ms Sciavo was beyond gone. Also note that her parents didn't seem to have too much of a problem sending her back to the nursing home when she proved to be "too much to care for".

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Terri Schiavo would almost certainly not have been one of those with signs of consciousness, given that most of her brain matter was gone.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I have to say that "almost certainly" isn't good enough for me.

Far better to err on the side of not ending life, IMO.

The autopsy proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ms Sciavo was beyond gone. Also note that her parents didn't seem to have too much of a problem sending her back to the nursing home when she proved to be "too much to care for".

Beat me to it!

It's not like anyone was happy to see her die, but let's face it--she was already dead, in all the ways that mattered. I sure as hell wouldn't want people keeping my empty shell of a body alive.

At least this test seems to provide a reliable way of determining whether you really are an empty shell or not.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

I've heard of this for some time, it's called "Locked-in" Syndrome, it only applies to certain cases of PVS.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

I've heard of this for some time, it's called "Locked-in" Syndrome, it only applies to certain cases of PVS.

This.

Teri Schiavo was an entirely different case, countless MRIs, CAT scans, PET scans, X-Rays and countless other tests showed that the bulk to Teri's brain matter was gone and was little more the mush. She had practicaly no brain activity. This is worlds different than the types of brain damage, PVS and "lokced in sydrome" cases this article is talking about.

Teri was gone and done. Nothing could've saved her, there was nothing too save.

 

[bryce]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Funny think was (religious - often Christian) people who charged that we were' "playing God" and "deciding who lives and who dies" (implying that we didnt have the right, but God only did) when it came to pulling the plug on Schiavo...

But the thing was, it was *technology* that way keeping her "alive" - left to nature, she would have died...letting her die wasn't "playing God", or "deciding who should live or die"...KEEPING HER "ALIVE" WAS!!!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Exactly right, bryce. Left to her own devices, she'd have died the day she first collapsed. Medicine--especially measures that save or prolong life--are "playing God" in any reasonable sense of the phrase.

But I don't believe in God, so it doesn't bother me one whit.

 

[John Picard]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Exactly right, bryce. Left to her own devices, she'd have died the day she first collapsed. Medicine--especially measures that save or prolong life--are "playing God" in any reasonable sense of the phrase.

But I don't believe in God, so it doesn't bother me one whit.

bryce seems to be glossing over the fact that this process is yet a new tool for the medical arsenal. Look at the big picture -- a heart transplant recipient lived but a few years when the process was first developed, and now they can live decades. Gotta learn to walk before you can run.

 

[Smiley]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

The practice of medicine is not very different conceptually from pushing somebody out of the way of an onrushing car. If you have the means to save someone's life, then you should do so. Cases involving life support and possible brain death can present very difficult dilemmas. This fMRI test highlights the need for careful consideration of the available facts before a decision to cut off support is made.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Robert Maxwell,

I don't believe in God either, but even though there is no God, I do not believe we should go around playing God. Granted I don't generally consider the issue with reasonably prolonging life so long as the person wants their life to be prolonged as necessarily playing God.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

If you have the power to save someone, you are playing god whether you choose to act and save him/her or you choose not to act and let the person die.
You are effectively deciding whether this person lives or dies - action or inaction, you are playing god.

 

[bryce]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Robert Maxwell at least, seems to have gotten my point.

Turning off Terry's life-support was not "playing God" - "deciding who lives and who dies" - keeping it on was.

Science was using extraordinary measures to basically animate a corpse.

But, if we are supposed to use every single "tool' (as some one here called it) at our disposal to keep people alive animated indefinitely...all for religious reasons...

What happens when the technology is developed - as it inevitably soon will be....when we can keep almost anybody alive - in most conditions?

What happens when we achieve medical immortality? At what point then will the religious/the Church say that a new technology is one technology too far!?

if we are supposed to use every means at our disposal to prolong life as long as possible...how is it gonna effect some religious theologies when we can essentially end death?

Will that be "going to far"? But how does it differer from what was done to Terry?

Doesn't that interfere with "God's plan" for us to live a span, die, and go on to some sort of afterlife?

What happens when (as we soon may do) develop real workable cryonics...and can actually find a process to freeze and then safely revive the (once considered) dead - beyond help....? (As a heart attach victim or transplant patient once was?)

Is it right to bring people back from "the afterlife"?

 

[bryce]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

This all reminds me of that Babylon 5 quote:

Jeffrey Sinclair: Who asked you to play God?

Franklin: Every damn patient who comes through that door, that's who. People come to doctors because they want us to be gods. They want us to make it better…or make it not so. They want to be healed and they come to me when their prayers aren't enough. Well, if I have to take the responsibility, then I claim the authority too. I did good. And we both know it. And no one is going to take that away.


And maybe soon this will be better off moved to TNZ...maybe.

 

[JiNX-01]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Terri Schiavo would almost certainly not have been one of those with signs of consciousness, given that most of her brain matter was gone.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I have to say that "almost certainly" isn't good enough for me.

Far better to err on the side of not ending life, IMO.

Uh, when the autopsy was done on Terry Schaivo, they found that her brain matter was liquified.

From wikipedia:

Left: CT scan of normal brain; Right: Schiavo's 2002 CT scan provided by Ronald Cranford, showing loss of brain tissue. The black area is liquid, indicating hydrocephalus ex vacuo (an abnormal accumulation of cerebralspinal fluid in the cavities of the brain). The small white piece in the right image is a Thalamic stimlator implanted in her brain.

An autopsy after Schaivo's death showed that Schaivo's brain had shrunk to about half normal size, and that Schaivo was blind. "No amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons," according to the medical examiner, Dr. Jon Thogmartin.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

I think there are some circumstances where playing god is not acceptable. Reasonably speaking, if you want to ask me what circumstances you don't think would be acceptable, you can ask me on this forum and I'll probably answer.

 

[scotpens]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

An autopsy after Schaivo's death showed that Schaivo's brain had shrunk to about half normal size, and that Schaivo was blind. "No amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons," according to the medical examiner, Dr. Jon Thogmartin.

Exactly. The person known as Terri Schiavo had ceased to exist. Her physiological functions -- heartbeat, breathing, digestion -- were being artificially maintained in a grotesque parody of life.

And, even if some as-yet-undiscovered medical miracle had made it possible for Terri's brain tissue to regenerate -- essentially growing a new brain -- her consciousness, personality, and memories would still be gone. It wouldn't be Terri Schiavo; it would be a newborn infant in an adult body, starting life from scratch.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Scotpens,

Yeah, Terri Schiavo's brain was damaged beyond repair, she was dead as a doornail.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

I always thought that folks like Terry Schiavo were brain dead...not *aware*!?

I dunno if I'd want to plug pulled anyway in that case!

Well, if their existence is so nightmarish, compassion would suggests to end their suffering instead of keeping them in that state.

At least give them a choice if they wanna keep on living this way,,,,

And you plan to ask them... how?

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I have to say that "almost certainly" isn't good enough for me.

Far better to err on the side of not ending life, IMO.

The autopsy proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ms Sciavo was beyond gone. Also note that her parents didn't seem to have too much of a problem sending her back to the nursing home when she proved to be "too much to care for".

I don't think that facts are very important for those who have an agenda in the subject.

I've heard of this for some time, it's called "Locked-in" Syndrome, it only applies to certain cases of PVS.

Yeah, and it would be consistent with the "small proportion of cases" mentioned in the article.