Fleet construction

[Timo]

IIRC, that was just the ground facility of a starbase. And they didn't do any actual training there, it was just the entrance exams FOR the academy.

Which makes it a bit curious why they should dedicate several rooms on the base to the sole purpose of testing a handful of candidates annually. I mean, the room that was rigged to fall apart didn't appear to be a holodeck, or even a multipurpose room with more mundane alternate uses. It was simply an arena with various special effects built in. (And one of the corridors was an obvious matte painting! Talk about going physical.)

Also, only one of the finalists was actually chosen to GO to the academy, which wasn't on Relva Four. This actually kind of illustrates my point: the Academy is VERY selective about who it will accept, with a rigorous testing process weeding out anyone who doesn't have the talent or the intellect and academy life grinding down the rest. They take only the very best and brightest and train them to be even better and brighter; this tells me Starfleet prefers quality over quantity in its personnel. The makeup of its fleet undoubtedly reflects this.

But the thing is that it doesn't - see the "Nog's promotions" thread.

Which is in no conflict with "Coming of Age", because that test was for Wesley and several of his age-mates. That is, the rare underage genius quota! Obviously you have to present special credentials if you wish to ignore some of the entry requirements such as the supposed age limit.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Which would mean there are more enlisted than we are generally aware of, or Starfleet's selection process, while strict, is not limited to just one selection process on Relva Four. That could be one for the sector that Enterprise happened to be in during that time and once you fail you have to wait a year to apply again regardless of sector. This is so someone couldn't just try to jump sectors to apply again and again over the course of a year.

But a sector is a region almost 20 light years across, according to most sources. Even in a federation 8,000 light years in diameter, there would only be a few thousand candidates passing those exams every year, and not all of them would successfully graduate.

Starfleet may be the best and brightest for their officers, but they still need to run all those ships. Either the writers severely underestimated the number of ships needed for the volume of the Federation, or the volume of the Federation is vastly overstated by some of the same writers.

It's actually a combination of both. Scifi writers are notoriously poor judges of scale, and even Trek writers fail to comprehend that an interplanetary superstate distributed around a 16 lightyear region would be stupefyingly huge, even accounting for warp drive. It isn't a factor of travel times between waypoints as some would like to believe, it's the fact that the amount of realestate -- moons, planets, cities, space stations, etc -- that you could comfortably fit into that region is effectively infinite; you could put a hundred billion people into that volume of space without anyone ever feeling crowded.

Anyway, the question of size is immaterial. Picard says the Federation consists of "over a hundred and fifty" worlds, which is a far cry from the millions that would be in an 8,000ly sphere. There's again the strong possibility that "federation space" isn't a contiguous region at all and 8,000 light years is merely the distance of its farthest member, with 2500 light years of unexplored/undeveloped space between that remote world and the next nearest member.

They are going to need a lot of ships and officers to even have one ship for every 20 sectors or more.

Starfleet can't be everywhere, though, and we can see that they don't even try. They don't need a lot of ships to do what they do, they just need the right ships to be in the right place at the right time.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But the thing is that it doesn't - see the "Nog's promotions" thread.

Which is in no conflict with "Coming of Age", because that test was for Wesley and several of his age-mates. That is, the rare underage genius quota! Obviously you have to present special credentials if you wish to ignore some of the entry requirements such as the supposed age limit.

Begging a lot of questions there:
1) What IS the age limit for the academy?
2) How old was Wesley?
3) How old was Nog?
4) How come Nog didn't have to take the test?

 

[Unicron]

Getting back to fleets for a minute, it's likely that Starfleet and other powers have a section for captured vessels they've acquired over the years from enemies. FASA certainly suggested this (the Orions have a fairly large fleet comprised of mainly Klingon designs, legally acquired or not) and IIRC we saw a few Klingon vessels in the surplus depot in one episode. How likely is it that Starfleet would try to modify and use these vessels on some form of regular duty?

 

[JES]

^^ That would depend on a variety of factors:

Is the ship up to specs (technologically) to Starfleet's standards?

Would it be easy for a Starfleet crew to run?

Would running an enemy captured ship be diplomatically problematic?

Might there be any safeguards to prevent a foreign power from using said captured ship, or might said safeguards activate in an inconvenient time (a task force is sent to ambush and/or retrieve said vessel, shutting down weapons, shields, and possibly life support)?

Does Starfleet need another ship this badly that they couldn't just build another analog instead (for example, would it be worth using a Jem'Hadar Attack Vessel over building another Defiant class, assuming they were to manage to disable one in battle, salvage her, and all the other necessary stuff)?

 

[Ithekro]

Captured ships tend to have three uses historically.

1. Target practice.
2. Learning about the enemy's technology, construction methods, and likely procedures based on the ship's layout
3. Special Operations (infiltration, espionage, and other such missions.) Sometimes against the enemy themselves, or against other powers (even allies) to gain advantages.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I would consider "target practice" to be a subset of "training purposes."

Kirk's captured Klingon bird of prey is probably taken apart and examined for all its engineering secrets, then reassembled and sent to Starfleet Academy to function as an aggressor starship in training exercises and for boarding simulations. Certainly its cloaking device would be a useful training tool for Starfleet officers learning how to hunt cloaked starships in cluttered, planetary/orbital environment.

By the time the peace treaty was signed, they'd probably converted it into a museum ship.

 

[Timo]

IIRC we saw a few Klingon vessels in the surplus depot in one episode.

Or Romulan ones, considering that the Qualor II depot was later associated with Romulan space (Romulans stole stuff from there, then shipped it via Galorndon Core which is definitely near Romulan space).

Would it be worth the effort to operate enemy ships in order to fool the enemies? When Dukat did that in "Apocalypse Rising", the mimicry broke down at visual range, for various reasons - so he could just as well have been using the Defiant and altered the warp field to look like a Klingon BoP one at a distance. OTOH, the trickery did work against the Dominion later on - twice at that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

We have little to go on in terms of number of any particular class constructed by the Federation. We have the 12 or 13 of the like of Kirk's Enterprise back in the late 2260s. Never few other starship designs until the 2280s are shown. Then we get a few Miranda and ships like Grissom, plus the brand new USS Excelsior, and well as evidence of more refit Constitutions.

For the 24th century have on screen evidence of a large number of Miranda and Excelsior type starships throughout Star Trek of the 1980s and 1990s. We have on screen evidence of around maybe a dozen Galaxy-class starships, though more seems likely unless all of the remaining Galaxy-class ships were operated together for the Dominion War and all recalled to Earth by the time Voyager returned. We saw lots of Akira-class ships as well as several Saber and Steamrunner-class ships during the time of the Dominion War. We see several kitbash ships as well. We don't see many Norway-class ships due to a real world computer failure.

We also have a few older ships from the early 24th century running around in small numbers. The Ambassador-class and Constellation-class ships.

We saw a few Defiant-class ships, upwards of a half dozen I think. Very few Intrepid-class ships. Not all that many Nebula-class ships at the same time. We only see one Sovereign-class ship.

What does this mean? I don't know. There are large numbers of 23rd century designed starships filling out the fleets during the Dominion War as front line combat ships, but few to no known early 24th century designs in those same fleets.

 

[Unicron]

Or Romulan ones, considering that the Qualor II depot was later associated with Romulan space (Romulans stole stuff from there, then shipped it via Galorndon Core which is definitely near Romulan space).

Would it be worth the effort to operate enemy ships in order to fool the enemies? When Dukat did that in "Apocalypse Rising", the mimicry broke down at visual range, for various reasons - so he could just as well have been using the Defiant and altered the warp field to look like a Klingon BoP one at a distance. OTOH, the trickery did work against the Dominion later on - twice at that.

The Tal Shiar did try something of this sort in Starfleet Command 3, albeit using a different method. They used modified cloaks/holographic systems to masquerade as Fed and Klingon ships and then attacked the other side, in an attempt to drive a wedge between the alliance. You can see a bit of that in this cinema.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBR8eAk0Xg[/yt]

 

[Phantom]

Or it could be seen as sphere with a volume of 8000 cubic light years. That would describe a sphere roughly 25 light years in diameter, encompassing between 50 and 200 stars.

Which is completely contradicted by on-screen evidence. There are parts of the Federation all the way out at the rim of the galaxy (Delta Vega in WNMHGB).

More to the point: Starfleet vessels aren't exploring WITHIN Federation space (assuming "Federation space" is seen as a contiguous spherical region that the Federation exclusively controls, and that is far from certain). Most exploration goes well outside of charted space and, therefore, hundreds if not thousands of light years away from Federation worlds.

Production sources indicate that in face NOT all of Federation space has been explored in detail.

Anyways, number crunching time:

Here is a map of mapped space in the Federaton:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20120828225331&path-prefix=en

You can see that the marked areas at the edge of the galaxy are marked in arc seconds. Taking the conservative estimate of the circumference of our galaxy (250,000 ly), each marked segment is ~694.5 ly. That gives us a left/right dimension of 12 segments (8334 ly) at the widest point. Assuming that each marked area is roughly cubical (not entirely accurate since we're dealing with segments of a circle, but it'll work for a ballpark figure) the depth of the depicted area is 7 segments at the widest front/back point, or 4861.5 ly.

So much for a 25 ly dia Federation.

using the 694.5 on a side cube as a referent, each cube would encompass 334,978,359 cubic ly. There are 46 cubes on the map representing the total volume of that explored space (47 if you count the one containing the Klingon homeworld).

That would yield a volume of 15,409,004,514 cubic ly as representing the charted galaxy as of 2293 (this map was depicted in ST VI, though it first appeared in S1 of Next Gen).

If you assume an even distribution, even if you give each ship a patrol/exploration area of 100/100/100 ly (five times a standard sector size) you still need 15409 starships to get the job done. Again, that is with a fully dispersed Starfleet with only 1 ship/region, and 100% deployment (nothing in drydock or boneyard)

 

[Phantom]

But Starfleet is not a collection of ships. Starfleet is a collection of PEOPLE. It may indeed be economically possible to build tens of thousands of ships on relatively short notice, but attempting to MAN all of those ships with qualified personnel is a more difficult task.

If anything, the lack of a major academy campus outside of San Francisco is a suspicious omission from Trek canon

Well, it's actually NOT an omission, because there are at least three known Academy Annexes with on-screen evidence:

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_Academy_(Psi_Upsilon_III)

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_Academy_(Beta_Ursae_Minor_II)

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_Academy_(Beta_Aquilae_II)

There may or may not be a satellite campus on Earth in France. It does exist in at least one alternate timeline.

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Marseille_Starfleet_base

Non-coms were trained on Mars (at a mininimum).

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_Technical_Services_Academy

We also know there is a separate Academy for Medical Officers.

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_Medical_Academy

and there may or may not be a separate school for Command training

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_Command_School

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Or it could be seen as sphere with a volume of 8000 cubic light years. That would describe a sphere roughly 25 light years in diameter, encompassing between 50 and 200 stars.

Which is completely contradicted by on-screen evidence. There are parts of the Federation all the way out at the rim of the galaxy (Delta Vega in WNMHGB).

1) What makes you think Delta Vega is a Federation outpost? It could just as easily be a corporate station run by the Tyrell Corporation
2) What makes you think it's on the rim of the galaxy? Enterprise only said it was LEAVING the galaxy, they didn't say they WHERE they were leaving it.
3) See the part where I already specified that "Federation space" probably isn't contiguous anyway and merely encompasses a TOTAL VOLUME of eight thousand cubic light years, the actual distribution of which is tricky to explain in a short conversation.

Production sources indicate that in face NOT all of Federation space has been explored in detail.

Then it's not Federation space. It is CHARTED space that has not been explored.

Here is a map of mapped space in the Federaton:

No, that is once again a map of CHARTED space. Not claimed space, not explored space. Only space for which maps exist. We saw the Enterprise involving itself in the mapping process in "Corbomite Maneuver" when they are seen photographing star positions and triangulating their new relative positions. Bailey asks Spock if other ships have made charts of this region and Spock tells him "We're the first out this far." The region of space the Enterprise has just traveled through is now mapped and added to the star charts, but by NO stretch of the imagination does that now become "Federation Space."

The Federation has no actual territorial claims to the vast majority of that territory, even the space BETWEEN Federation worlds where they have neither colonies nor fleet assets. That they have maps of those regions (without having had occasion to explore them yet) doesn't mean that area of space "belongs" to the Federation.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But Starfleet is not a collection of ships. Starfleet is a collection of PEOPLE. It may indeed be economically possible to build tens of thousands of ships on relatively short notice, but attempting to MAN all of those ships with qualified personnel is a more difficult task.

If anything, the lack of a major academy campus outside of San Francisco is a suspicious omission from Trek canon

Well, it's actually NOT an omission, because there are at least three known Academy Annexes with on-screen evidence

According to artwork materials that were never legible on screen and were glimpsed by Troi as part of a series of extremely vivid hallucinations (In fact the bulk of the episode actually occurs in Troi's mind during the five and a half seconds it takes for Worf to notice she's wandering too close to the plasma stream). None of which tell us WHERE those facilities are or how one comes to enter -- let alone graduate -- from them.

FYI: in modern terms then "Annex" of a university is a facility or program adjacent to it but serving a suplemental purpose. The way those terms are used presently, a separate "annex" would be a facility on campus specifically setup to accommodate someone with special needs. Say, humanoids with unusual biorhythms (a species that goes into hibernation during the winter or a species that reproduces asexually and unpredictably).

In any case, the omission I'm referring to is the lack of MENTION of other academy campuses. San Francisco is the only one that's ever named, and it's heavily implied that all Starfleet officers regardless of species or location go there for training. Even Nog -- who is not even a Federation citizen -- goes to San Francisco for training, as does Wesley Crusher, who has lived most of the past several years on a starship and has practical experience as an officer already.

We also know there is a separate Academy for Medical Officers.

We also know for a fact that there ISN'T: Starfleet Medical Academy is part of the San Francisco campus and medical officers train there with all the rest. Which, again, parallels real-world college programs.

and there may or may not be a separate school for Command training

There isn't. That, too, is the "Command School" of Starfleet Academy. We've actually SEEN this in two different movies now and we have a very good idea of how it runs.

 

[Ithekro]

In California, CSU East Bay has multiple annexes which are separate campuses in different cities. For a while, when it was still called CSU Hayward, they had an annex in Concord, CA.

So Starfleet might have annexes that are on other planets. San Francisco is the main campus. It is likely that everyone goes there eventually. If only to graduate.

 

[C.E. Evans]

We also know there is a separate Academy for Medical Officers.

We also know for a fact that there ISN'T: Starfleet Medical Academy is part of the San Francisco campus and medical officers train there with all the rest. Which, again, parallels real-world college programs.

It really seems to parallel the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda which is separate from any U.S. military academy campus. All students enter as entry-level commissioned officers with prior military service or training not a necessity (civilians go straight to ensign or second lieutenant upon being accepted; previously commissioned officers must accept a temporary reduction in rank to ensign or second lieutenant while there).

 

[Phantom]

According to artwork materials that were never legible on screen

Wrong. I have screen caps for each of them. The remastering/Blu Ray project is our friend

and were glimpsed by Troi as part of a series of extremely vivid hallucinations (In fact the bulk of the episode actually occurs in Troi's mind during the five and a half seconds it takes for Worf to notice she's wandering too close to the plasma stream).

She never has any negative reaction to the information. No moment of "hey, this isn't right...that facility doesn't exist". Furthermore, the existence of those persons from her vision were corroborated outside the vision.

None of which tell us WHERE those facilities are

Again nope. Got the caps to prove it.

or how one comes to enter -- let alone graduate -- from them.

Doesn't matter, they exist. On-screen = canon.

FYI: in modern terms then "Annex" of a university is a facility or program adjacent to it but serving a suplemental purpose.

Not necessarily. The Smithsonian maintains 19 separate facilities. Only 11 are located together around the National Mall in Washington DC. 5 more plus the National Zoo (also a SI campus) are scattered around the rest of DC. Another facility is in NYC, and the last is in Virginia (the Air and Space Museum).

The University of N Carolina as 17 separate campuses scattered across the state.

The North Dakota University system as 12 separate campuses.

The Library of Congress maintains at least one annex in Landover, MD beyond the main campus in DC.

Took me just a few minutes to find those examples. Can easily find more.

The way those terms are used presently, a separate "annex" would be a facility on campus specifically setup to accommodate someone with special needs. Say, humanoids with unusual biorhythms (a species that goes into hibernation during the winter or a species that reproduces asexually and unpredictably).

Nope. Nothing requiring that at all. Just a separate location where the same administrative body oversees things.

In any case, the omission I'm referring to is the lack of MENTION of other academy campuses.

Already disproven (see above), but even if you were right then it's a case of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

In addition, there IS further verbal evidence that not all Starfleet officers and crew go to the Academy in San Fran. Some don't go to that Academy at all.

From DS9's "Starship Down"

O'BRIEN: Can I have a word with you, sir?
WORF: Of course.
O'BRIEN: With all due respect, I think you're riding the men a bit hard. You have to understand, they're out of their element. They're not bridge officers, they haven't been to Starfleet Academy. They're engineers. They're used to being given a problem to solve, then going out and figuring out how to do it.

(break for clarity)

San Francisco is the only one that's ever named, and it's heavily implied that all Starfleet officers regardless of species or location go there for training. Even Nog -- who is not even a Federation citizen -- goes to San Francisco for training, as does Wesley Crusher, who has lived most of the past several years on a starship and has practical experience as an officer already.

See above.

We also know there is a separate Academy for Medical Officers.

We also know for a fact that there ISN'T: Starfleet Medical Academy is part of the San Francisco campus and medical officers train there with all the rest. Which, again, parallels real-world college programs.

Wrong again. There is no on-screen evidence that the SMA is in San Francisco. Starfleet Medical (as in the HQ building for the medical division) is apparently in San Fran, but there is no evidence that the Academy is housed in that building.

By the same token, there isn't anything to say that it isn't

and there may or may not be a separate school for Command training

There isn't. That, too, is the "Command School" of Starfleet Academy. We've actually SEEN this in two different movies now and we have a very good idea of how it runs.

I did say "may or may not".

 

[Phantom]

Separate response to keep post size down:

1) What makes you think Delta Vega is a Federation outpost? It could just as easily be a corporate station run by the Tyrell Corporation

Which doesn't mean it's not still part of the Federation/within Federation space.

2) What makes you think it's on the rim of the galaxy? Enterprise only said it was LEAVING the galaxy, they didn't say they WHERE they were leaving it.

By definition they have to pass through the rim to leave the galaxy. In order to pass through the rim, they have to first be at the rim.

Confirmed by dialogue:

KELSO: Screen on, sir. Approaching galaxy edge, sir.
KIRK: Neutralise warp, Mister Mitchell. Hold this position.

The "Great Barrier" is the rim of the galaxy, and they clearly enter it before being repulsed back into the galaxy, which burns out their warp engines.

Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship's space warp ability gone. Earth bases which were only days away are now years in the distance. Our overriding question now is what destroyed the Valiant? They lived through the barrier, just as we have. What happened to them after that?

For their own safety, they have to get rid of Mitchell. They also need to find a way to fix the warp drive. Spock finds the solution.

SPOCK: Recommendation one. There's a planet a few light days away from here. Delta Vega. It has a lithium cracking station. We may be able to adapt some of its power packs to our engines.

Delta Vega is only a few light days from the galactic rim and the Barrier.

Furthermore, go back to the Log Entry. Kirk states that the nearest "Earth base" (ie Federation base) is years away at impulse speeds (and would have been only days at warp speed). Even allowing for the vagaries of Trek Travel times, that means Federation facilities are VERY close to the galactic rim.

3) See the part where I already specified that "Federation space" probably isn't contiguous anyway and merely encompasses a TOTAL VOLUME of eight thousand cubic light years, the actual distribution of which is tricky to explain in a short conversation.

Doesn't matter. To get from one part to the other you still have to cross all that space. The Federation's area of authority is HUGE.

let's go back to the map:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net..._Galaxy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131202012408

better link (the MA one keeps shrinking for some reason)

Let's look at just known Federation members: Vulcan is nearly a cube length away from Earth. That's over 600 ly. Babel (a Federation neutral world) is almost 2 cube sides away from Vulcan. That's over 1200 ly.

Now for the real kicker: Andor. It's almost 3 cube lengths away from both Vulan and Babel (4 from Earth). 1800 ly minimum.

The Federation is clearly NOT a 25 ly sphere as you would have it be. The facts are 100% against you.

Here is a map from the later seasons of Voyager:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20120219183037&path-prefix=en

Here is a cleaned up recreation

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081210091902/memory-gamma/images/7/7e/VoyagerMap.jpg

Again note the enormous size of the Federation. Even if you take the extent of the Federation as just the white circle labled UFP (which would be wrong because we know canonically that the Federation has at least one base within just a few ly of the galactic rim), that circle is ~2 of the little squares across. Each little square is ~2,000 ly (being 1/5 of a big square which is 10,000 ly.

Production sources indicate that in face NOT all of Federation space has been explored in detail.

Then it's not Federation space. It is CHARTED space that has not been explored.

The Federation has no actual territorial claims to the vast majority of that territory,

Source?

even the space BETWEEN Federation worlds where they have neither colonies nor fleet assets. That they have maps of those regions (without having had occasion to explore them yet) doesn't mean that area of space "belongs" to the Federation.

nor does it mean that it does not.

Consider 18th Century America post Louisiana Purchase. It was ours, even if we hadn't yet mapped and explored every inch of it yet.

 

[Ithekro]

The Galactic Barrier need not be in the edge of the galaxy in a 2D sense. It can be all around the galaxy in a 3D sense, meaning one can travel "vertically" from anywhere in the Galaxy and run into the edge of it and the Galactic Barrier. The Galaxy is about 2,000 light years thick around where our sun is.

So in my 10,00 light year estimates of 600 million stars? That is not a sphere, but a cylinder that is 10,000 across and approximately 2,000 high.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

She never has any negative reaction to the information. No moment of "hey, this isn't right...that facility doesn't exist"

Yeah. Hallucinations are funny like that.

Not necessarily. The Smithsonian maintains 19 separate facilities. Only 11 are located together around the National Mall in Washington DC.

And yet you're claiming that ALL of them are separate from the main campus. I'm saying there's no evidence that this is the case, and there's also no MENTION of them as having any significance. Which means they're either attached to the main campus in San Francisco or they're small enough that nobody ever cares about them.

And again, there's a difference between an annex and a full campus. It's not just arbitrary "let's use a fancier word this week so people will think we're smart."

Nope. Nothing requiring that at all. Just a separate location where the same administrative body oversees things.

Exactly. Which basically requires them to be at least within a few minutes to a few hours travel by vehicle, otherwise it would be more efficient to establish a separate administration for the additional campus.

There aren't many reasons why faculty and administrators will be required to travel on a regular basis for hours at a time to a site far removed from the campus where their offices and main resources are located. That's the whole point of HAVING a campus: so everything is conveniently close together for students and for instructors. If the students can make the trip to the main campus, they only need to do it once or twice a year; if the students CAN'T make the trip to the main campus, they go to a campus that is more conveniently located for them.

There is no on-screen evidence that the SMA is in San Francisco. Starfleet Medical (as in the HQ building for the medical division) is apparently in San Fran

What exactly did YOU think "Starfleet Medical" was referring to, then?

I tell you I'm going to visit my sister at Penn Med. Where, exactly, am I going?

Which doesn't mean it's not still part of the Federation/within Federation space.

I thought you were pushing the "onscreen evidence only" position? Is there any evidence Delta Vega is a Federation facility? If not, why are you claiming that it is?

Confirmed by dialogue

Not even close. Kelso says "edge," not "rim."

To get from one part to the other you still have to cross all that space.

And it is not even remotely established that the Federation has authority over all or even most of that space. We know they have authority over their ships and their citizens, and that's about it. TNG doesn't change this at all, and DS9 hints at a territorial limit but never goes about nailing down exactly where it is or how it's structured. We see a few maps in Voyager that also indicate the limits of known space for which the Federation has maps, but that again doesn't tell us how much of that space the Federation CONTROLS.

Let's look at just known Federation members: Vulcan is nearly a cube length away from Earth. That's over 600 ly.

Actually Vulcan was established by dialog as being "A little over sixteen light years" From earth and slightly closer to Andoria. You might want to consider that if you want to use the map as canon:

Babel (a Federation neutral world) is almost 2 cube sides away from Vulcan...

Which would be about 32ly if we go by the canon distance between Vulcan and Earth. And again, that doesn't tell us whether or not the Federation has jurisdiction over the space between them.

Now for the real kicker: Andor. It's almost 3 cube lengths away from both Vulan and Babel (4 from Earth). 1800 ly minimum.

So about 48 light years, going from "Home," although much of what happened in Enterprise would strongly imply it's much closer to Vulcan than Vulcan is to Earth.

Consider 18th Century America post Louisiana Purchase.

Consider the 21st century Pacific ocean.

How much of the Pacific between California and Hawaii is United States territorial waters?