"Fistful of Data's" is just not a good episode!

[JirinPanthosa]

There's a difference between avoiding a kiss out of fear of homosexuality and avoiding a kiss because you just see it as unpleasant.

No different than if I tried to kiss a homosexual woman.

We don't refer to 500 years ago as Ancient because we have the term medieval as a catch all for 'That Europey Kingy time'. My guess is in the 24th century they might use a word like 'Industrial' or 'Prewarp' to refer to the 19th and 20th centuries, but from their perspective anything prewarp may feel like Rome to them.

 

[Jayson1]

There's a difference between avoiding a kiss out of fear of homosexuality and avoiding a kiss because you just see it as unpleasant.

No different than if I tried to kiss a homosexual woman.

We don't refer to 500 years ago as Ancient because we have the term medieval as a catch all for 'That Europey Kingy time'. My guess is in the 24th century they might use a word like 'Industrial' or 'Prewarp' to refer to the 19th and 20th centuries, but from their perspective anything prewarp may feel like Rome to them.

I'm not sure why anyone would find it unpleasant enough that it would bother them all that much. I understand not enjoying it but if it ends the program I see it sort of like 2 actors giving a stage kiss. With Worf I can see it being more a problem because he is someone who is very conservative but they didn't even give him a reason to try and get out of a kiss because she never tried to give him one at the end. If she went in for kiss and he rejects it that at least would make some sense.

Jason

 

[DonIago]

But in this case it wasn't needed to end the program...so what's your point?

 

[Jayson1]

But in this case it wasn't needed to end the program...so what's your point?

It wasn't needed because they wrote it that way. It's like they wanted to play around with the idea of Data in a dress coming onto Worf for a joke but were to afraid to end it they way that makes the most sense.

Kiss is more funny and more progressive than her just putting her head on his chest which feels very safe and only reminds the audience about how bad Trek has been on the issue of gay rights when a out of context man on man kiss is even off limits.

Jason

 

[DonIago]

Speaking as a gay man, it didn't remind me of that at all.

 

[Jayson1]

Speaking as a gay man, it didn't remind me of that at all.

I guess it's just a matter of taste. For me if I wrote the scene I would have Worf get uncomfortable and saying "end program" like he does but once that doesn't work I would just have Troi say something like "Just kiss her so we can end the program you big baby", maybe even mention the fact he got shot and needs to see a doctor. He does it and Troi says something like "see that wasn't so bad" Then Data in prostitute clothes comes in the room and is that woman who we see early in the episode at the brothel and says something funny like "What are you doing with my man" to other Data or "I'm with child we need to talk" to Worf and then the program shuts down and they are back on the holodeck grid.

Jason

 

[thewanderingjack]

I agree the whole kiss bit was written off badly... I'm with jayson1... it seemed homophobic by the production and just seemed weird/off in-world.

OP: "good episode" vs "bad episode" is most often about your tastes.
You have issues with holodeck episodes... I like them, it reminds us that these people have off-time and gives us a little look into what they do, esp in terms of entertainment. There's 4(?) holodecks for ~1000 crew members... implies some very regular use.

You not liking Alexander (apparently) is also on you... ignoring Worf's son or his issues with being a sudden single father wouldn't work for me. The fact that he acts more human than Klingon, given his mixed heritage and having been exclusively raised in human culture (even his mom raised him "human", just as she was raised/preferred to act more human) makes sense to me. And we got all the good reason as to how and why he came to be there so...

The ghost town thing... I get that, but it's way better than TOS:Specter of the Gun in every respect... that was facades and a few of other people... AND nobody died...

The Worf as weak thing, I get. But then he often comes of like that to me (if I apply traditional Klingon values to him, which I do). In general he often gets beat up or pushed around... but then, all SF personal come off as having almost no martial capacity/skill/talent/ability (even the trained ones).

Also mercy != weakness. If anything mercy is a sign of strength.

Not to Klingons, and Worf has shown his willingness to kill before, to attack first, to show no mercy... it is part of his whole "I want to be a traditional Klingon" persona, his desperate desire to retain his culture despite not having been raised in it past early/mid childhood.

 

[Jayson1]

I think m

I agree the whole kiss bit was written off badly... I'm with jayson1... it seemed homophobic by the production and just seemed weird/off in-world.

OP: "good episode" vs "bad episode" is most often about your tastes.
You have issues with holodeck episodes... I like them, it reminds us that these people have off-time and gives us a little look into what they do, esp in terms of entertainment. There's 4(?) holodecks for ~1000 crew members... implies some very regular use.

You not liking Alexander (apparently) is also on you... ignoring Worf's son or his issues with being a sudden single father wouldn't work for me. The fact that he acts more human than Klingon, given his mixed heritage and having been exclusively raised in human culture (even his mom raised him "human", just as she was raised/preferred to act more human) makes sense to me. And we got all the good reason as to how and why he came to be there so...

The ghost town thing... I get that, but it's way better than TOS:Specter of the Gun in every respect... that was facades and a few of other people... AND nobody died...

The Worf as weak thing, I get. But then he often comes of like that to me (if I apply traditional Klingon values to him, which I do). In general he often gets beat up or pushed around... but then, all SF personal come off as having almost no martial capacity/skill/talent/ability (even the trained ones).



Not to Klingons, and Worf has shown his willingness to kill before, to attack first, to show no mercy... it is part of his whole "I want to be a traditional Klingon" persona, his desperate desire to retain his culture despite not having been raised in it past early/mid childhood.

My problem isn't so much with holodeck stories as it is that they feel to often like a excuse to have everyone play dress up in old clothes. I would love to see some 24th century fiction. It wasn't the best of episodes but one thing I liked about the "Voyager" ep with Flouder character I think he was called it is that to me felt like what you might see in Trek. A 24th century version of "Sesame Street." or any other kind of kid's show. I wonder what science fiction stories are like in the Trek universe.

As for Alexander I like the idea of Worf being a parent and kind of being a bad one. I enjoyed many of the ep's with him like "New Ground" "Ethic's" and I am the only person I think that likes "Cost of Living." Usually though those worked for me because I like how others react in those stories. I liked seeing Worf having to become a parent or have to deal with a severe injury or Troi kind of embrassing the kid to deal with her her being lonely.

It still didn't make me get nervous when I knew Alexander is in a story and that is because the kid actor was so bad he could easily bring down any story. In this one I didn't think the Western stuff was interesting enough so it makes Alexander seem especially annoying in his scenes. One thing I did like though is I really liked DS9's Alexander which says to me most of the dislike is simply because they got a terrible child actor, which I don't understand because I felt they usually did a good job when it came to casting kids on the show

Jason

 

[thewanderingjack]

I get your point on the "play dress up" thing, but it's a double edge sword type of thing... people, at least some, do like to play "pretend were in the past"... it's a bit of the fantasy fiction thing for example... seems reasonable that would continue... would also make sense if people went to the holodeck to pretend they're in the 90's etc (that might've been interesting). I def think there should have also been more 24th century stories shown in there (and 23rd, 22nd...etc)... that would've been fun. The Flouder one (as bad as I thought that holoprogram was in itself) was cool like that... definitely the way they likened it to Sesame Street and such (everyone remembered playing with Flouder as kids :-)). And the holodeck as a reason for the dress up was better than the "just because" (i know, budget etc really, but in-world) of TOS.

Ok, I get you not liking "Alexander"'s acting. I have that issue a lot with TOS and even with either characters that are only in 1 episode or consistently (but not often). It just sucks, but oh well.

 

[Prax]

Isn't Alexander played by the same actor in TNG and DS9?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Yep, it is really really dumb. And not dumb in a way I find enjoyable and fun, like Spock's Brain or The Royale. Fistful of Datas is just...bad.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

It's a western were nobody dies and to make it worst Worf is made to look weak when he won't shoot the bad guy because he son is watching. Feels like a Halmark moment instead of something a Klingon would do.

You bring up a good point. Worf made his son look at his own dead mother's corpse, bleeding and full of stab wounds, because it's a Klingon thing to face death like that. But he won't shoot a holodeck person because his son is watching? I call bullshit.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I agree but Data was playing a woman who had a interest in Worf. She is the issue, not Worf. Why would a program that includes a romance, end without a Kiss or more important why would you choose for her to go for a hug/head rest over a kiss if the kiss is going to be the better punchline to the joke.

Jason

It was the old west.
The sensibilities at that time were different.
Possibly kissing in public was unacceptable.
That's the way I thought of it

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

... Worf has shown his willingness to kill before, to attack first, to show no mercy... it is part of his whole "I want to be a traditional Klingon" persona, his desperate desire to retain his culture despite not having been raised in it past early/mid childhood.

Not to mention the time he was a bit cross with Duras. But yes, the episode itself was quite weak.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I don't usually make a big deal over Deanna ... I know! ... but TNG wouldn't be the same without her and in those couple episodes where she wasn't in it, at all, I always noticed. I like that something different was done with Troi, here, because Marina's always wanted the job, she's always been a team player and she's a decent actress. Besides, Marina was really cute in her little cowgirl outfit! She was deserving of a broader role on the show, but, yeah ... this story wasn't one of the strongest to showcase her in. But I've always found it to be a tolerable episode, without particularly disliking it ...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Isn't Alexander played by the same actor in TNG and DS9?

No.

By the time Alexander shows up on DS9, he's played by a much older actor (and is already serving in the Klingon Defense Force), but when he was on TNG he was just a child.

His TNG appearances were played by Jon Steuer (the first episode) and Brian Bonsall (the rest of them). On DS9 he was played by Marc Worden.

 

[Tosk]

but when he was on TNG he was just a child.

Who was already older than he should have been...compared to a human, at least.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Not sure what some have against Alexander.. Good storyline.. Same in FF of Datas... Good light stuff.. Actually makes sense and should up the temperature when safeties shut off.. Good dialogue from Data.. Interesting discovery the show could not end without the embrace.. Not sure what everyone else is on about

 

[Prax]

TNG sure used the "Safety malfunctioning " plot for a lot of their holodeck episodes. With that in mind, my favorite TNG holodeck episode is The Royale.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Definite fav for me too! Fistful of Datas I rate a bit higher because of the obvious higher quality and better production 6th season.. But fav quotes entry would easily be.. 'Rest in peace Col Richie'

TNG sure used the "Safety malfunctioning " plot for a lot of their holodeck episodes. With that in mind, my favorite TNG holodeck episode is The Royale.