No problem. I completely ignore ENT as wholly irrelevant because it's proven itself not to be TOS' history.
C'mon, CRA. This is B.S. There was no backwards slide because ENT isn't TOS' history.
First View of SOTL 2011 NX-01 Refit Diagram
- Thread starter Starlock
- Start date
I don't mind when it works. Adds a touch of realism in most cases.
I for one could never get the original argument of TOS being more backward than ENT. By the looks of it, TOS is more advanced than ENT: TOS tech achieves the exact same things as ENT tech, but with fewer button pushes, doodads and thingamabobs.
Which is characteristic of most technologies today, really. They do the same thing they did a hundred years ago, only better, and with fewer button pushes. Certain communications and data processing technologies are different - they didn't exist a hundred years ago, and did less a decade ago than they do today. But a rifle today is the same as a rifle a hundred years ago - only lighter, more accurate, cheaper, more reliable (but with shorter range). A car today is the same as a car in 1910 - only sturdier, safer, more reliable, more comfortable, and with a performance margin that seldom sees use. Ships from the time of RMS Titanic would compete evenly with ships from today on a nautical-mile-dash past the audience, even if the hundred years of development have vastly increased economy or maneuverability, while reducing comfort and (in the world of warships) protection and speed.
Technological plateaus are common, and in Trek some of them seem to extend all the way from ENT to TNG. This is obviously because certain types of space adventure can only be told when the heroes and villains have certain levels of technology. The trend is still clear, though: from lots of blinkies and flashies in ENT through a few simple buttons in TOS to no buttons at all in TNG...
Timo Saloniemi
Which is characteristic of most technologies today, really. They do the same thing they did a hundred years ago, only better, and with fewer button pushes. Certain communications and data processing technologies are different - they didn't exist a hundred years ago, and did less a decade ago than they do today. But a rifle today is the same as a rifle a hundred years ago - only lighter, more accurate, cheaper, more reliable (but with shorter range). A car today is the same as a car in 1910 - only sturdier, safer, more reliable, more comfortable, and with a performance margin that seldom sees use. Ships from the time of RMS Titanic would compete evenly with ships from today on a nautical-mile-dash past the audience, even if the hundred years of development have vastly increased economy or maneuverability, while reducing comfort and (in the world of warships) protection and speed.
Technological plateaus are common, and in Trek some of them seem to extend all the way from ENT to TNG. This is obviously because certain types of space adventure can only be told when the heroes and villains have certain levels of technology. The trend is still clear, though: from lots of blinkies and flashies in ENT through a few simple buttons in TOS to no buttons at all in TNG...
Timo Saloniemi
^ For some fans that may be the issue but for some... they just don't like others playing in what they like to think is their yard. 
But I completely 100% agree with you. And to further your statement, I would like to point out that we still use machines and tools that were invented 500 to 2000 years ago. What is that old saying, "If it ain't broke don't try and fix it."
But I completely 100% agree with you. And to further your statement, I would like to point out that we still use machines and tools that were invented 500 to 2000 years ago. What is that old saying, "If it ain't broke don't try and fix it."
Ah, but TOS is ENT's future. IaMD proves it.
Academic, since I agree with Timo's assessment that TOS was more advanced than Enterprise. All the way back to those renders of Vektor's Constitution next to the NX-01, and only confirmed by how amazingly shiny and metallic the Defiant was in the show itself.
The whole goddamned series was inconsistent with TOS. It's been shown time and time again even if there are those who just want to pretend that everything is fine. Well good for them. But in my book everything I've seen underlines that ENT was a dishonest reboot and has absolutely zilch to do with TOS.
^ I hate to throw more fuel on the fire (since I know that nothing I say will ever change your mind about this and I would never try to anyway) but TOS was inconsistent with itself. I am not surprised that the other shows couldn't keep up. They tried though.
But again, these are television shows produced under a very very tight schedule. I am shocked that the writers and producers were able to make things as consistent as they did.
But again, these are television shows produced under a very very tight schedule. I am shocked that the writers and producers were able to make things as consistent as they did.
The whole goddamned series was inconsistent with TOS. It's been shown time and time again even if there are those who just want to pretend that everything is fine. Well good for them. But in my book everything I've seen underlines that ENT was a dishonest reboot and has absolutely zilch to do with TOS.
Fine, ENT's future simply had a curious aesthetic similarity to the completely unrelated show known as Star Trek. And I was putting it all on the spin-off defining itself in relation to the original, but allowing you to maintain your opinion on the original in and of itself having nothing to do with the later production. See if I ever fucking humor you again.
Focus on the fourth season. Any inconsistencies that take place in the first three seasons can be waved away by simply taking the position that those that weren't resolved during the course of the fourth season were done away with when Archer hit the reset button on the Temporal Cold War.
...And one of the most important continuity-restoring pieces in ENT is the despised "These Are the Voyages".
After all, the biggest "continuity violation" in ENT is the very existence of a historically important starship named Enterprise. During the course of the movies and spinoff shows, our heroes cross-referenced past and future Enterprises often enough, yet failed to mention the historical contribution of NX-01.
Our one feeble hope in justifying this was to say that NX-01 was a starship operated by a foreign power - the barbaric old United Earth, not the United Federation of Planets that is home to our patriotic heroes - and therefore not included in the discussions or listings. Archer's ship may have been historically important, the same way James Cook's old Endeavour or Columbus' Santa Maria was, but so far removed from UFP history that it would not pop up when our heroes discussed starships Enterprise.
But had NX-01 survived beyond the founding of the Federation, we would have lost even that small glimmer of hope. "TAtV" killed NX-01 in the nick of time, for which we should be rather thankful!
Timo Saloniemi
After all, the biggest "continuity violation" in ENT is the very existence of a historically important starship named Enterprise. During the course of the movies and spinoff shows, our heroes cross-referenced past and future Enterprises often enough, yet failed to mention the historical contribution of NX-01.
Our one feeble hope in justifying this was to say that NX-01 was a starship operated by a foreign power - the barbaric old United Earth, not the United Federation of Planets that is home to our patriotic heroes - and therefore not included in the discussions or listings. Archer's ship may have been historically important, the same way James Cook's old Endeavour or Columbus' Santa Maria was, but so far removed from UFP history that it would not pop up when our heroes discussed starships Enterprise.
But had NX-01 survived beyond the founding of the Federation, we would have lost even that small glimmer of hope. "TAtV" killed NX-01 in the nick of time, for which we should be rather thankful!
Timo Saloniemi
Nope. The universe is clearly divided in two kinds of Enterprise: starships, and the rest. And TOS and the spinoffs put together make it clear that Kirk's was the first such starship, that there were no starships Enterprise in addition to those registered NCC-1701-optional-suffix-letter.
ENT in its entirely is a gigantic contradiction of this. The ways out are clear: either ENT didn't happen (an intriguing possibility when considering the Temporal Cold War); or all the other Trek heroes made incorrect statements; or the heroes justifiably discounted NX-01 the same way they would dismiss all the assorted sailing ships, aircraft carriers, pleasure yachts, balloons, shuttles and winnebagos named Enterprise from the exalted sisterhood of starships.
That is, either NX-01 was too primitive to count (unlikely); too insignificant (unlikely); or too foreign (at least a possibility, as long as we're grasping at straws).
Timo Saloniemi
ENT in its entirely is a gigantic contradiction of this. The ways out are clear: either ENT didn't happen (an intriguing possibility when considering the Temporal Cold War); or all the other Trek heroes made incorrect statements; or the heroes justifiably discounted NX-01 the same way they would dismiss all the assorted sailing ships, aircraft carriers, pleasure yachts, balloons, shuttles and winnebagos named Enterprise from the exalted sisterhood of starships.
That is, either NX-01 was too primitive to count (unlikely); too insignificant (unlikely); or too foreign (at least a possibility, as long as we're grasping at straws).
Timo Saloniemi
Not nearly as much as many like to believe. And nowhere near anything like the b.s. that ENT put forth.
In my books ENT will always be a steaming pile of over ripe crap. And I rarely saw any footage that was worth a damned thing.
OK, so they counted an Enterprise that was a test bed first of her class ship that never even made it to space, but not NX-01? talk about splitting hairs.
It's an old argument, but one that won't die. Throughout all the shows and films it's established that you have the ringship E and then the TOS E is next. Nothing in between. But Berman and gang decide to shoehorn one in there just for the hell of it.
Fuck 'em. Everything about ENT was a sloppy and bastardized form of restart to remake things to their liking. It was their finger to what came before no matter what else they may claim to the contrary.
Fuck 'em. Everything about ENT was a sloppy and bastardized form of restart to remake things to their liking. It was their finger to what came before no matter what else they may claim to the contrary.
I don't understand your counterargument. Or is it that you don't understand my argument?
The universe is full of things named Enterprise, most of them insignificant like the technology testbed you mention, some of them perhaps historically interesting. Our heroes acknowledge their existence but don't consider any of them worth much attention; the only non-starship Enterprise that has ever served as a story point was the semi-fictional nuclear aircraft carrier from the 1980s. (And then there was the wholly fictional sailing ship Enterprise that served as holographic set dressing in ST:GEN. Might have been fictional even in the Trek universe for all we know...)
However, there are several instances in Trek where our heroes establish that there has not been a starship Enterprise before Kirk's. Thus, our heroes discount NX-01. They discount both NX-01 and the space shuttle and the ringship and the aircraft carrier and whatnot - they discount them all. That is, none of them is part of their six-strong list of starships named Enterprise, from NCC-1701 to NCC-1701-E.
Now why are both the ringship and NX-01 discounted? Both could be assumed to be "starships" in the sense that they were ships that were capable of traveling to the stars. Our ENT heroes even use that technical term for their vessel.
The reason could be because they aren't Starfleet starships. But again, our ENT heroes use that very term to describe their ride. So we probably have to start splitting hairs there, and assume that NX-01 and NCX-330 were operated by a foreign starfleet and thus not included in the UFP Starfleet starship lists of our heroes (quite regardless of whether these ships were historically important, and quite regardless of whether their importance was to their foreign nation or to the history of the UFP).
Hmh? Nothing of the sort is established. There could have been an Enterprise necklaceship and a braceletship after the ringship but before Kirk's vessel, or half a dozen space yachts or transports or luxury liners, or perhaps a world-famous space city of that name. Every list of pre-TOS Enterprises is pick-and-choose anyway, and every list picks and chooses differently.
The only known limitation is that there should be no starships other than those registered NCC-1701. Non-starships by the name Enterprise can exist at any timepoint, including between the various NCC-1701s. It would probably be more consistent if these non-starships never did anything particularly historical, but that's not a strict requirement: it could simply be that our Starfleet heroes don't usually get excited about the fact that Earth's first spacegoing spa was named Enterprise. But they do get excited about there only being four starships of that name between Kirk's first and Picard's last.
Timo Saloniemi
Just so you know, I'm currently going through the third season of ENT, and I'm rather surprised at the quality...
Both the shuttle and NX-01 were treated identically by "internally post-ENT" Trek heroes: they existed as artwork the heroes paid zero attention to.
This is not yet a problem. Enterprises before Kirk's were of course "acknowledged", as opposed to being taboo, hidden in closets, or something silly like that. Various listings or collections of them featured various examples of them. If we could move NX-01 from the category of starships to the category of pre-starships or less-than-starships, she would automatically get the same treatment as the shuttle(s), the carriers, the winnebagos. And that would solve all our problems. We would be fine if NX-01 were acknowledged the exact same way the STS testbed was, as mere mood-setting artwork that brings a sense of history to the interior decor.
Haf of our problem lies in NX-01 being too much of a modern starship to be dismissed on technical grounds or because she'd be from too distant a past. The other half lies in there being no definite limitations on the collection of Enterprises, but there being very definite limitations on the starships of that name. Take away either half and there's no problem. But we can't take away the fact that our "later" heroes firmly believe Kirk's starship was the first. That is, they believe in six starships, and we've seen all those six by now, plus NX-01. Perhaps neither Beverly Crusher ("Remember Me") nor agents Lucsly and Dulmar ("Trials and Tribble-ations") can count? Or perhaps they for some unfathomable reason discount one of the NCC-1701s, thus allowing them to count NX-01?
I never had a problem with that. Most ENT episodes were written way better than the TOS stuff, and certainly produced with greater care (not a comment on the enthusiasm, only on the available means and the end result). It's just that ENT virtually never had quite the same spirit. Mostly comes down to casting and acting... It would have to have been superior to TOS, in order to do the near-impossible and make the 27th season of Star Trek as attractive as the 1st. Instead, it was inferior.
(Okay, to be exact, I prefer the modern conceptual writing over the TOS stuff, but the acting is lackluster partially because the modern dialogue writing isn't good enough, not because the actors would be bad.)
Timo Saloniemi
^ Some of the dialog is horrible. I will agree with you there.
