• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers First Reviews

The Kurtzman era is divisive towards the audience. Too many existing fanbase fans have been alienated without an in-kind greater replacement from a new audience. Merch sales are definitely off. The strategy just isn't working. While some Kurtzman fans would like to just gaslight others over this, it can be objectively observed.
There is not a franchise around at the moment that isn't divisive to it's audience. TV franchises are now just a front in the culture war going on between progressive and 'anti-woke' types. Star Wars, Stranger Things, Dr Who are all experiencing this so it's not something limited to Star Trek.

To focus on Star Trek, I'm old enough to remember when people were hating on Voyager and Enterprise and comparing Sisko to Picard. The fan base has always had divisiveness going back to TMP and pretending that this somehow new to the kurtzman era is at best uninformed and at worst intellectually fraudulent. What is different, is the vitriol being spewed and the notion that Star Trek being 'woke' (which is something it has always been) is somehow a threat to society.
 
There is not a franchise around at the moment that isn't divisive to it's audience. TV franchises are now just a front in the culture war going on between progressive and 'anti-woke' types. Star Wars, Stranger Things, Dr Who are all experiencing this so it's not something limited to Star Trek.

To focus on Star Trek, I'm old enough to remember when people were hating on Voyager and Enterprise and comparing Sisko to Picard. The fan base has always had divisiveness going back to TMP and pretending that this somehow new to the kurtzman era is at best uninformed and at worst intellectually fraudulent. What is different, is the vitriol being spewed and the notion that Star Trek being 'woke' (which is something it has always been) is somehow a threat to society.
TNG was divisive. My dad preferred TOS and never watched TNG. My peers preferred TNG and got annoyed at TOS that I liked.
 
Ultimately, all of Kurtzman Trek shows chase that non-Trekkie audience - and fall completely flat on this goal, with their only audience being slightly annoyed old and grandfathered-in Trek fans.

Trek is a 60 year old franchise that hopes to be around for another 60 years so catering exclusively to a bunch of middle age / seniors is, frankly, inane and bad business. I think they really failed by putting it on streaming.

I think aiming for a new audience isn't a bad thing in principle. The thing is that the only real time that happened was with TNG, and it was just kind of by accident. the rest of Berman Trek just coasted on people who were already bought into the franchise.

Exactly! Star Trek was not aimed at "nerds" or whatever else some of the more extreme, gate keeping elements of fandom seems to think as they decry attempts at reaching a broader audience. Roddenberry understood that to stay on tv he needed to reach and HOLD millions of viewers, not just niche scifi fans. It's why Star Trek blew up in the 70's. Because regular, non-scifi fans could sit down and enjoy it. Plenty of us remember watching Trek with our parents because the show was written that way.

I'm not going anywhere! I like observing trainwrecks!

There's something sad about "hate watching" a show.

Maybe I’ve missed someone mentioning this elsewhere, but this review, by the way, reveals what we’ve been wondering about earlier: Jay-Den is described as “queer” (which of course might not mean he’s gay; could also be bi, pan, ace or non-binary, I guess). You just know that certain parts of the fandom will explode with bigotry upon learning this, but I think it’s cool that the show is doing it. I don’t envy the people who’ll have to manage online spaces where these kind of bigots will spew their hatred.

Wait! :crazy:

And they'll get mad when you call them out on it. They'll use "dog whistles" and then scream you're "the real bigot" because you can see through the bullshit.

I’m excited!!! Just a bit nervous from what we’ve seen about the characters so far (a Klingon named Jay’den??) but I’m hopeful nonetheless :)

I hear you and make no mistake....I eye rolled at the name. But here's the thing: In 1986 I learned the names of two characters in an upcoming Star Trek spin off called "The Next Generation". When I read those names I thought these were two of the dumbest fucking names ever created and given to characters. Those names?

Worf and Data.

Up until then, Klingons typically had cool sounding names that began with 'K' (for some reason).
Kang, Koloth, Kor, Kruuge (sp). Now we have "wharf"? WTF!?

They named the android "Data"!? Again, WTF!? That's like naming him "Computo".

The point being is that the characters were written and acted well enough and now those names don't seem stupid, in fact I can't imagine those characters being named anything else. So we'll see if the same holds for this new character.

I feel genuinely bad writing this. It's not a bash, nor will it ever turn into a bash. It's just self-awareness....

But, after watching the trailers, reading articles, etc. I feel as though this is the first Star Trek production in franchise history that simply isn't for me.

And there's nothing wrong that. I hit that point a season or so into Voyager's first run. I found it to just be more of the same tired old shit. I wasn't really into DS9 as much as I wanted to be, but I still respect it not just doing another goddamn starship show and vomiting up more of the same. But, to not only my surprise but the shock of the people who had known me all my life, I gravitated to a new show called Babylon 5. I prefer it (with all it's flaws) to anything Trek has produced post TNG (except Lower Decks).

It's okay to move on from Trek. It's not always going to be for you. That is literally life. Music changes, clothing style changes, slang changes, the world changes. Some people can accept that. Others become bitter and miserable that not only did the world change, it didn't ask their permission and doesn't care that they don't like it. I've been watching some people complain about the current era of Trek since 2009.

17 years

Guess what?

After 17 years all of that complaining and bitterness has accomplished exactly nothing. Well, it's made some people look sad and pathetic for not having the wherewithal to simply move on to things that will bring them joy, but otherwise....nothing. I get the first several years of complaining we've all done that....but seven-fucking-teen? Almost two decades? Yeah, best to move on.

Edited to add: "moving on" doesn't mean "stop watching" any Trek of course. For me it just means Trek is no longer "must see" or "appointment" tv. I still watch Star Trek, TNG and very rarely DS9 when the mood strikes me. I've tuned into this third era of Trek and have enjoyed about as much as I've disliked (except LD which I love).

which meant quantity over quality

Most of the Trek franchise is mediocre, at best, with a decent amount of good episodes and a handful of excellent ones. That doesn't mean they can't be entertaining, but too many fans look at Trek with rose colored glasses. I say this as a fan of 53 years who still loves Star Trek more than it's spin-off's and being painfully aware of all it's flaws.

I do wish they would've aired the current era on regular tv instead of streaming though. I think DSC and SNW would be much bigger with more exposure. PIC / LD I'm not sure CBS would've been the best home for them.
 
Last edited:
Exactly! Star Trek was not aimed at "nerds" or whatever else some of the more extreme, gate keeping elements of fandom seems to think as they decry attempts at reaching a broader audience. Roddenberry understood that to stay on tv he needed to reach and HOLD millions of viewers, not just niche scifi fans. It's why Star Trek blew up in the 70's. Because regular, non-scifi fans could sit down and enjoy it. Plenty of us remember watching Trek with our parents because the show was written that way.

Yeah. I'm not old enough to remember that era (my parents were TOS fans, so I grew up with it - literally remember sitting down with the family to watch the TNG premier at age 8), but I think it's important to note that the Trek fandom grew slowly over time. TOS had fans during its original run, but only reached a critical mass after syndication, in the 1970s. And TNG reached its apex in popularity probably around Season 5 or so, after it was given plenty of years to perfect its format and find its audience. DS9 was always much more "my show," but I know Trekkies younger than me who just happened to stumble on VOY or even ENT since that was what was on syndication, and worked their way back from there. Point is fandom was always developed slowly over time, not in these big gulps with smash hit shows.

Unfortunately, I think the whole streaming model (particularly that of shows behind subscription paywalls) is pretty much set up for the antithesis of this. But if you look at say the rise of Game of Thrones back in the 2010s, or Stranger Things more recently, you'll see that each season premier tops the last because it's clear that lots of folks only discovered the shows after the hype of the later seasons, and then worked their way back through the rest. I don't think Trek has succeeded in this in its modern incarnation, unfortunately, and we're still stuck in subtractive versus additive fandom.
 
I think aiming for a new audience isn't a bad thing in principle. The thing is that the only real time that happened was with TNG...
:wtf:

Is that why they had TOS and TMP models and props in the background of most interior ship scenes, and were referencing back to TOS any chance they had in TNG S1...

And in TNG S2 they brought in Dr. Katherine Pulaski -- an absolute female version of Dr. Leonard MCcoy right down to being an 'Old County Doctor' with a fear/distrust of Transporters and they tried (very unsuccessfully) to replicate the acerbic Bones/Spock relationship with Pulaski/Data.
^^^
Yes sir, that sure is trying to draw in a 'new audience'...oh. wait...
 
:wtf:

Is that why they had TOS and TMP models and props in the background of most interior ship scenes, and were referencing back to TOS any chance they had in TNG S1...

And in TNG S2 they brought in Dr. Katherine Pulaski -- an absolute female version of Dr. Leonard MCcoy right down to being an 'Old County Doctor' with a fear/distrust of Transporters and they tried (very unsuccessfully) to replicate the acerbic Bones/Spock relationship with Pulaski/Data.
^^^
Yes sir, that sure is trying to draw in a 'new audience'...oh. wait...

My point is that's the only time Neilsen ratings went up. Throughout the Berman era past TNG, the franchise was shedding fans.
 
My point is that's the only time Neilsen ratings went up. Throughout the Berman era past TNG, the franchise was shedding fans.
But is wasn't because of the "Going after new fans..." specifically. They were going after ANY fan and definitely trying to win over existing TOS fans.

Over time a new audience found it, and some older fans started to be more accepting too.
 
Negativity bias is a real thing. Love of a franchise replaced by hatred it seems.
and i'll never understand why people do that.

Trek has always been one of my favourite shows since i was 11. I always go into every Trek project with an open mind. And i want them to succeed. Maybe i have 'positivity bias'. I went into S31 with an open mind, and okay, it wasn't great. I have raised my expectations of SFA after seeing the positive buzz.

I don't get why people want a show they claim to love, Trek, to fail , and call for its cancellation
 
and i'll never understand why people do that.

Trek has always been one of my favourite shows since i was 11. I always go into every Trek project with an open mind. And i want them to succeed. Maybe i have 'positivity bias'. I went into S31 with an open mind, and okay, it wasn't great. I have raised my expectations of SFA after seeing the positive buzz.

I don't get why people want a show they claim to love, Trek, to fail , and call for its cancellation
Because comfort is more important than consistency
 
But is wasn't because of the "Going after new fans..." specifically. They were going after ANY fan and definitely trying to win over existing TOS fans.

Over time a new audience found it, and some older fans started to be more accepting too.

My point is that aiming for a new audience in Trek never seems to have worked, and the only time the franchise was growing in terms of fans (adding more viewers than were walking away) was once TNG hit its stride.

It wasn't per-se that TNG was aiming for a new audience (though I'd argue that it became more its own thing after Michael Piller came on as showrunner, and was less just reworking of stories that could've been on TOS). It was instead just that throughout the Berman Trek era, each series that tried "something new" had a diminished fanbase compared to the one before.

Now, one can argue there was too much of a "house style" during the Berman era - that the various experiments done (DS9 with a static location and more serialization, VOY in a very different area in space, and ENT in a different time period) were superficial. I think I'd agree with the second two, in fact. But none of the variations was able to win back the lightening in the bottle that was TNG during its prime (which I think is a shame, because I think DS9 was a better show overall).
 
I think that in terms of modern Trek reach, weekly Netflix releases felt like the ideal, but instead most shows did weekly P+ releases (not ideal) or Prodigy getting 20 episodes dumped on Netflix in one day (death sentence for a show's ability to have legs).

For Academy the thing I'm most focused on right now is seeing how the Tawny Newsome episode is going to end up so I can use that to adjust how I should feel about that potential comedy from her in case it happens, though the reviewers praising it is a good sign.
 
I think that in terms of modern Trek reach, weekly Netflix releases felt like the ideal, but instead most shows did weekly P+ releases (not ideal) or Prodigy getting 20 episodes dumped on Netflix in one day (death sentence for a show's ability to have legs).

For Academy the thing I'm most focused on right now is seeing how the Tawny Newsome episode is going to end up so I can use that to adjust how I should feel about that potential comedy from her in case it happens, though the reviewers praising it is a good sign.
Oh, the Tawny episode is sure to be good.

She loves Star Trek, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised for a moment if she called up Avery Brooks himself to get the okay to do whatever storyline she had planned.
 
My point is that aiming for a new audience in Trek never seems to have worked, and the only time the franchise was growing in terms of fans (adding more viewers than were walking away) was once TNG hit its stride.

It wasn't per-se that TNG was aiming for a new audience (though I'd argue that it became more its own thing after Michael Piller came on as showrunner, and was less just reworking of stories that could've been on TOS). It was instead just that throughout the Berman Trek era, each series that tried "something new" had a diminished fanbase compared to the one before.

Now, one can argue there was too much of a "house style" during the Berman era - that the various experiments done (DS9 with a static location and more serialization, VOY in a very different area in space, and ENT in a different time period) were superficial. I think I'd agree with the second two, in fact. But none of the variations was able to win back the lightening in the bottle that was TNG during its prime (which I think is a shame, because I think DS9 was a better show overall).
The thing is - your franchise's built in audience is the first and only guaranteed audience. So you have to go & expand from there.

MARVEL studios road to success was taking their heroes (Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America,...) - and being really, really faithful to the core identity (!) of them. But then shaving off decades of lore, trivia, controversies, rough edges, streamline the heck out them, and make accessable stories that anyone can understand without needing years of backstory knowledge.

Now they are struggling, because between dozens of movies, streaming shows, hundreds of characters, references, ... they are just not easily accessible anymore for newcomers, their stories don't feel fresh anymore, essentially the same problem their comics had before, before they did streamline everything for the movies.

OTOH DC & Fox had the problem that they tried to distance themselves from their characters - much more even then current Trek - Superman & Batman murdering criminals, the Fant4stic being gritty and unpleasant, X-Men afraid of wearing yellow - they just lost their core audience, and general audiences fizzled away slowly after that.


Back then DS9, VOY, ENT all went in with the premise of "more like TOS", "more action", "more modern", "different" - but then I would argue still all were easy too similar to TNG from the start, like the nth CSI spin-off, with diminishing returns over time, until the last one got cancelled before reaching 100 episodes.

By contrast the "modern" Trek period (well... 17 years since ST09...) - the main producers & directors regularly go directly to the press & say they never liked Trek and didn't understand the appeal of it, and now try to make a show for non-Trekkies and non-nerds.
And then no one else other than the hardcore nerd Trekkies show up, those get reasonable pissed, and the only chance to stumble upon these shows is if Netflix recommended it, because there is no positive word of mouth chatter among fans & friends at all. Hindsight is 20:20, but that this approach didn't work should not have been a surprise to anyone, to be honest.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top