First Flight and the Franklin

[Syd Shanshala]

When Forrest tells Archer the NX program has been put on hold indefinitely after AG's failed warp 2.5 test, he mentions starfleet has decided to design a new engine from scratch, independent from Henry Archer's. Could this be what eventually becomes the Franklin's engine? Developed alongside the NX's by a separate contractor, but only able to achieve warp 4?

 

[Ithekro]

Easily yes. That would be almost standard procedure to have more than one contractor working on new technology.

 

[Timo]

...Of course, this competing engine might eventually be good for warp eight or whatnot. All we really know is that it beats Archer's engine to the warp four milestone.

It doesn't appear that the ship ever goes to warp in ST Beyond. Taking off from the planet, she's immediately confronted by the rubble field or "nebula" around that planet, then navigates through it at what must be low sublight, and immediately upon emerging from the rubble is at the doorstep of Yorktown. So we learn little about the status or performance of those warp engines.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

When Forrest tells Archer the NX program has been put on hold indefinitely after AG's failed warp 2.5 test, he mentions starfleet has decided to design a new engine from scratch, independent from Henry Archer's. Could this be what eventually becomes the Franklin's engine? Developed alongside the NX's by a separate contractor, but only able to achieve warp 4?

In his conversation with Admiral Forrest, Archer said starting from scratch with another engine would take decades. IMO, the Franklin was a part of the NX Program and was launched sometime in the five years between the NX-Delta and the NX-01 Enterprise.

 

[Timo]

As the Franklin wasn't indicated to be of Franklin class (might have been, though, "starship class" might not contradict that), it's a bit surprising that she would be the one to break records, rather than the sister ships that preceded her (including at least the class ship).

Perhaps the Franklin wasn't launched to break records, but was launched to haul cargo or whatever, and was found surplus to that task and donated to warp engine developers to play with?

And since she's still warranting an NX registry while in Federation service decades later, perhaps she keeps on testing new engines? Perhaps she's the ship Archer's folks in "These are the Voyages" thought might reach warp seven?

This would make the exact looks of her ST Beyond engines irrelevant: her original warp four record-breakers might have had a decisive Henry Archer look to them, rather than this pronouncedly conical shape.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

starfleet has decided to design a new engine from scratch, independent from Henry Archer's

Archer said starting from scratch with another engine would take decades.

Archer might have overstated the time require, part of what Archer was arguing for was preserving his father's legacy. If Starfleet eventually went with a warp engine that Henry Archer had no part of, Henry would become a little known footnote in history.

It is not like they would be going complete back to scratch prior to Cockrane, just back to the point that Henry became involved in the project. Henry's efforts produced the NX-01 engine, but for all we know all further warp drive advancements were a result of omitting Henry's contributions.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Archer might have overstated the time require, part of what Archer was arguing for was preserving his father's legacy. If Starfleet eventually went with a warp engine that Henry Archer had no part of, Henry would become a little known footnote in history.

I tend to doubt that. I think Archer was more upset at the prospect of Humans being delayed for several more decades from entering deep-space, which was exactly what the Vulcans preferred. Having it be his father's engine was nice, but it wasn't the crux of his argument about scrapping the NX Program.

 

[Tenacity]

I'm still wondering why humanity didnt simply buy warp engines from nonvulcans?

Later seasons implied that various aliens had been on earth for some time, some of their socineties must have been warp capable

unless humans were driven todo it themselves

 

[Ithekro]

Perhaps Vulcan imposed trade restrictions.

But more than likely human stubbornness.

The Franklin's drive could have been another agencies' project. Like the Cosmodrome's hidden project (Chekov probably knew about it and would tell of "comman Russian knowledge that Russia invented the warp drive, and made it to warp four first), or something being developed for the MACO's out at say China Lake, while the NX-Warp Five Project using the Archer engine was the main Starfleet line project.

 

[Timo]

I'd think mankind did buy warp from outsiders. The ship we in "Aenar" learn is a Rigelian scout was seen operating with humans a couple of times, joining the "Storm Front" reception after having been part of the "Twilight" convoy. The Sarajevo might well be alien, merely the closest thing to what humans would find comfortable (similar in shape to the warp deltas, but with classic 24th century alien greeblies and grooves all over). Etc.

The aliens would of course only sell downrated stuff, either out of common business sense, or then because the Vulcans politely asked them to. And what they'd sell might be utterly incomprehensible, and unapplicable to Earth's nascent warfleet because

a) humans can't figure out how to build more of these engines
b) whatever they buy from aboard will surely have kill switches and backdoors
c) Vulcans have specific embargoes against buying military or "dual use" stuff from X, for every value of X
d) all of the above

So in any case, UESF would insist on developing its own engines, even if they originally were much inferior to the alien stock already in their possession. Sure, Johnnie Archer may have been the first human to fly past warp two in a human spacecraft powered by a human engine - but he may well have previously been aboard a Vulcan-built ship serving as a human diplomatic shuttle to the embassy on Vulcan, so that Dad could go there and back in a week rather than a year.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

I'd think mankind did buy warp from outsiders.

Don't forget the the Enterprise "ring-ship" whose warp drive is profoundly different than Cochrane's Phoenix design and what Henry mounted on the NX-01.

A Vulcan knock off, or a imported non-Vulcan design? I seriously have problems with the idea of some fans that the Vulcans gave Humanity a engine or plans for one.

Having a kill switch buried in the software makes a lot of sense, something that if you remove it from the lines of code the engine won't work.

 

[Boomer359]

...Of course, this competing engine might eventually be good for warp eight or whatnot. All we really know is that it beats Archer's engine to the warp four milestone.

It doesn't appear that the ship ever goes to warp in ST Beyond. Taking off from the planet, she's immediately confronted by the rubble field or "nebula" around that planet, then navigates through it at what must be low sublight, and immediately upon emerging from the rubble is at the doorstep of Yorktown. So we learn little about the status or performance of those warp engines.

Timo Saloniemi

Didn't the Enterprise have to warp it's way from Yorktown to the nebula? I just assumed that the Franklin had to warp back, but that we weren't show it because of movie time compression.

 

[Prax]

I just assume the Franklin came after NX-01, and was either built for the war, or after.

 

[Timo]

IMHO that's a bad assumption in many ways:

- The Franklin has those "cargo" transporters, while NX-01 introduced the "biocompatible" ones.
- The Franklin is credited with achieving less than NX-01 but still making history with that.
- The Franklin has those old spatial missiles - why would something built for war (or after the lessons about interstellar fighting learned during the first seasons of ENT) mount outdated weaponry?

Didn't the Enterprise have to warp it's way from Yorktown to the nebula? I just assumed that the Franklin had to warp back, but that we weren't show it because of movie time compression.

The Enterprise flies to Yorktown at warp at the start of the movie. We never see her go to warp at leaving Yorktown, and we quickly jump to her navigating through dense rubble at walking pace. She emerges from the rubble within sight of the planet Altamid. She then is lost without being able to engage warp.

When the Franklin supposedly retraces that journey, there's no sense in her going to warp at Altamid because the Enterprise example shows the rubble field starts right next to it. And we see Krall's ships exit the rubble field right next to Yorktown, so there's no sense in her going to warp at Yorktown, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Prax]

IMHO that's a bad assumption in many ways:

- The Franklin has those "cargo" transporters, while NX-01 introduced the "biocompatible" ones.
- The Franklin is credited with achieving less than NX-01 but still making history with that.
- The Franklin has those old spatial missiles - why would something built for war (or after the lessons about interstellar fighting learned during the first seasons of ENT) mount outdated weaponry?



The Enterprise flies to Yorktown at warp at the start of the movie. We never see her go to warp at leaving Yorktown, and we quickly jump to her navigating through dense rubble at walking pace. She emerges from the rubble within sight of the planet Altamid. She then is lost without being able to engage warp.

When the Franklin supposedly retraces that journey, there's no sense in her going to warp at Altamid because the Enterprise example shows the rubble field starts right next to it. And we see Krall's ships exit the rubble field right next to Yorktown, so there's no sense in her going to warp at Yorktown, either.

Timo Saloniemi

-They still use cargo transporters in the 24th century.
-He was confusing his history, slightly.

-the significant events of the Franklin's career happened well after Enterprise. It's not like the ship was designed, launch, crashed, and lost all in the 5 years before Entereprise(as if providing some kind of pre-NX time capsule).

There's no reason for it to have only spatial torpedoes either way, but the NX has both, perhaps the Franklin did as well. The Franklin was used post war. It had access to at least the technology the NX had access to, whether it was made before or not, because it was in service after the NX-01.

So I say it was built after as well.

 

[Timo]

-They still use cargo transporters in the 24th century.
-He was confusing his history, slightly.

Makes no sense - Scotty did supposedly need to modify the transporters from their ancient safe-for-cargo-only status to the ENT-or-later safe-for-cargo-and-crew status. If he confused history, he'd soon notice there was no need for those modifications. Did he outright lie when he claimed he made those?

-the significant events of the Franklin's career happened well after Enterprise.

Nope. She made history by being the first to warp four. This would not be possible if she were built after the ship that was the first to warp five.

There's no reason for it to have only spatial torpedoes either way, but the NX has both, perhaps the Franklin did as well.

No, Scotty was listing the maximum firepower available - nothing else would make sense.

Scotty was depicting the ship as refitted some time in the 2160s or so. Originally, she may have been even more primitively armed. But she had the "pulse phase cannon" that were a novelty for the third season of ENT, yet also the "spatial missiles" that predated ENT. A partial modernization makes sense; a partial installation of outdated weaponry does not.

The Franklin was used post war. It had access to at least the technology the NX had access to, whether it was made before or not, because it was in service after the NX-01.

Obviously. From this it follows she's allowed but not obligated to have post-ENT tech, and that she's allowed but not obligated to retain pre-ENT tech. If she were built after ENT, she obviously wouldn't be allowed to retain pre-ENT tech, such as cargo-only transporters or spatial missiles.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[oberth]

-They still use cargo transporters in the 24th century.
-He was confusing his history, slightly.

-the significant events of the Franklin's career happened well after Enterprise. It's not like the ship was designed, launch, crashed, and lost all in the 5 years before Entereprise(as if providing some kind of pre-NX time capsule).

There's no reason for it to have only spatial torpedoes either way, but the NX has both, perhaps the Franklin did as well. The Franklin was used post war. It had access to at least the technology the NX had access to, whether it was made before or not, because it was in service after the NX-01.

So I say it was built after as well.

reed talks about how long refitting the tubes for photonic torpedos would need - spatial and photonic torpedos are not combatible tube-wise

spatial torpedo

photonic torpedos

no way they are launched through the same tubes

 

[Prax]

There was no warp 4 barrier. There was a warp 2 barrier. All the ships they had could go warp 2, except the NX, which could go warp 4.

The "Warp five" engine was the first to go warp 4. Scotty was mistaken. He was probably confusing the two models. We could just as easily make the same sorts of mistakes about early airplanes, and which model broke which record.

 

[Prax]

reed talks about how long refitting the tubes for photonic torpedos would need - spatial and photonic torpedos are not combatible tube-wise

spatial torpedo

photonic torpedos

no way they are launched through the same tubes

Then it was built after, but only had spatial torpedoes. There's no issue here. Perhaps it was too small and underpowered to have photon torpedo launchers.

 

[oberth]

Then it was built after, but only had spatial torpedoes. There's no issue here. Perhaps it was too small and underpowered to have photon torpedo launchers.

with warp 4 that type is about the 2nd fasted in the fleet. so yes, that means photons (how many nx-class ships were built again?) - the spatials may be good enough for transports or 3rd rate system defense vessel (most likely downgraded to corvettes) but not for ships that have emergency capability - if it's rather fast it gets all we've got (especially after the xindi probe)