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First Contact Vs. Star Trek XI

Which do you prefer?

  • First Contact

    Votes: 88 53.7%
  • Star Trek XI

    Votes: 46 28.0%
  • Like them both equally

    Votes: 26 15.9%
  • Dislike them both equally

    Votes: 4 2.4%

  • Total voters
    164
It would be only be ripped by the same people who are ripping it now. And everyone else who likes it would be saying the same things they're saying now.
I strongly disagree. It would'be been ripped apart as a TNG film or Enterprise episode and indeed far less severe ideas have been, but because Kirk and Spock are there, and because it happened on the big screen it's somehow allowed to get away with it.
Some people don't want change and some people are comfortable with it.
People are comfortable with change, but not change change's sake. There was literally no need whatsoever to 'reboot' the franchise. It's not like continuity was a mess like DC in the 1980s, or that it was a good idea poorly executed like the 70s BSG.

A decent writer and creative team could've made a new film or TV show work within the existing Trek universe/timeline. Trek IV and FC proved you could tap into a non-Trek audience and bring in bucket loads of new fans.
 
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I strongly disagree. It would'be been ripped apart as a TNG film or Enterprise episode and indeed far less severe ideas have been, but because Kirk and Spock are there, and because it happened on the big screen it's somehow allowed to get away with it.

To a point I agree with you, but not in the larger issue.

Eh? What am I talking about? Well, I thought the villain wasn't that great and the plot, while fine as a brisk narrative, also has a couple of major issues. The stuff that really makes the film work are the new Kirk and Spock and their dynamic and charcter arcs and the supporting characters also, the SFX, the verve, the sheer cool of it all.

But all that stuff is integral to the movie, it's actually far more important than the plot and villain. You can't turn this into an ENT episode or TNG film without basically throwing away most of what make this film work to begin with, and whatever hypothetical result you'd get is fairly unrecognisable.

And would people have instinctively hated it if it was ENT or a TNG film? No, actually. Look at how well "First Contact" was recieved and is still defended here. While ENT had an impressive hatedom, there are those who would defend the episodes that don't suck and the fourth season is even something of a fan favourite.

Some people don't want change and some people are comfortable with it.
People are comfortable with change, but not change change's sake. There was literally no need whatsoever to 'reboot' the franchise. It's not like continuity was a mess like DC in the 1980s, or that it was a good idea poorly executed like the 70s BSG.

Come now, that's not why they rebooted BSG. Even if it had been well executed, the writers of nuBSG wanted a fresh slate to tell a different story.

There are no necessary reboots. Ever. Reboots may be the healthy way to restart a franchise or keep a franchise going, but there's not even 'necessity' for that, just some guy (or guys) who thinks it can be milked a little more.
 
It would be only be ripped by the same people who are ripping it now. And everyone else who likes it would be saying the same things they're saying now.
I strongly disagree. It would'be been ripped apart as a TNG film or Enterprise episode and indeed far less severe ideas have been, but because Kirk and Spock are there, and because it happened on the big screen it's somehow allowed to get away with it.
Of course you strongly disagree. You didn't think this film should have been made in the first place. That colours your judgement. Like everything else that has come before, hardcore fans will rip anything a new one when it doesn't fit their preconceived view of expectation. It doesn't matter which "era" of Trek is on the big screen, or small screen for that matter....especially if it achieves some kind of mainstream success.. To some fans Star Trek is exclusively "theirs," and every attempt at a mainstream audience has been perceived by the hardcore as "selling out" and "dumbing down" the franchise. These same people were out in force bashing TWOK, TSFS, TVH, TUC, GEN, FC, INS, ENT, VOY, and this film.
Some people don't want change and some people are comfortable with it.
People are comfortable with change, but not change change's sake. There was literally no need whatsoever to 'reboot' the franchise. It's not like continuity was a mess like DC in the 1980s, or that it was a good idea poorly executed like the 70s BSG.
I think a reboot, or at the very least a restart or prequel was absolutely necessary. People turned away from Star Trek because there is so much you need to know about it to understand it. Its own history and universe was becoming fairly complicated for anyone who isn't already a hardcore fan. If they had done a TNG film or just plopped another crew onto a 1701-Q in the 28th century, it would have flopped. They made the right choice by going back to Kirk and Spock. Even the uninitiated know who those characters are. It is a good starting point to bring people into Star Trek and, in fact, I know some people who have warmed up to the original show as a result of this movie.
Do I agree with everything they did?? Certainly not, but as it's been said, people are going to complain no matter what and I think the writers made some bold decisions with the characters and gave the franchise a hit movie that they can now build from. Having read the interviews of what they'd like to see with a sequel, I think the next film will be even truer to what we, as longtime fans, have come to expect from Star Trek.
A decent writer and creative team could've made a new film or TV show work within the existing Trek universe/timeline. Trek IV and FC proved you could tap into a non-Trek audience and bring in bucket loads of new fans.

Yes, but those films were made when TOS and TNG were at the peak of their respective popularities. By the time the next films in each franchise came out, the interest in new Trek had waned and those films were written mostly for the hardcore fanbase. Star Trek as a franchise needed a restart.

Again.. I agree with some of your sentiment.. Though I liked this film, I would have loved to have seen a DS9 film, or even that Romulan War thing Berman has talked about, rather than see a recast Kirk and Spock and 1701. I would have loved to have seen that 60s Enterprise and bridge on the big screen, rather than the hotrod thing with a windshield.. I could go on, but I found the film to be satisfying and I am a huge fan of what this team has done with MI:3 and I am a big fan of Fringe. I think these guys care enough about the franchise to please this old fan, but have enough balls to shake things up and make it their own, which is now totally their right to do.
 
Of course you strongly disagree. You didn't think this film should have been made in the first place. That colours your judgement.
That's not strictly true; I was as excited as the next man at the prospect of more Kirk and Spock TOS adventures. However, had I seen the film before it was made (if that makes sense), then yeah, I would not have wanted this film to have been made.
 
Of course you strongly disagree. You didn't think this film should have been made in the first place. That colours your judgement.
That's not strictly true; I was as excited as the next man at the prospect of more Kirk and Spock TOS adventures. However, had I seen the film before it was made (if that makes sense), then yeah, I would not have wanted this film to have been made.

See that's the thing. I knew this would have to be the kind of film it was to really restart this whole thing.

I see the sequel to this being the Dark Night..
I felt the same way about Batman Begins as you do about this film. I thought it was unnecessary, miscast, and I HATE the new Batmobile. That said, The Dark Night blew me away. I never thought anyone could touch Jack Nickelson's portrayal of the Joker, then along comes Heath Ledger who makes the Joker a real life villain.

Batman Begins put newbies in the seats , and threw the comic book fans a little bone. Star Trek, imo, threw us hardcore fans some great bones and gave us a nice "what if" origins story. We can argue that it was poorly executed. I think the pacing of the film was too frenetic, and they could have done better by just making the film 10 minutes longer and give some of those scenes a little more development.

But I enjoyed it. I think the franchise is in better hands than it would have been if they maintained the status quo and certainly better than giving it to a team that didn't love the genre. I can pick nits about the colour of Pine's eyes, and the size of the nacelles and the waitress station on the bridge, but that doesn't really make that much of a difference to me. The cast nailed their characters and the story had the humour and action elements that the last few Trek outtings had been sorely missing and were integral to the original show. They got that right.
 
STXI does have good crossover sppeal, but FC had a lot of crossover appeal also through its use of the Earth-based guest stars. In fact FC's crossover appeal may be "smarter" than STXI's.

I have to pick FC here. But I even picked STV over STXI. Similar reasoning: STXI is just too light, except for the opening. STXI sorely lacks dramatic appeal. It has no dig.
 
Star Trek, imo, threw us hardcore fans some great bones

I highly disagree there. Tossing out references to Johnathan Archer's dog while totally erasing everything hardcore fans loved for years is not throwing a bone. The word patronizing comes to mind, but I don't think the writers are malicious enough to deserve that word.

Keep in mind, I have no problem with the idea of a reboot. I even think TOS needed a reboot. ST11's execution was just shallow and clumsy, and rapid fire obscure references can't make up for that and are in fact another symptom of the problem.
 
Yeah, having a good story and plot would be better homages, honestly.

Everything else in XI was just superficial for references. Kinda reminds me of what they do in the new Doctor WHO...just references, not really 'right'.
 
See that's the thing. I knew this would have to be the kind of film it was to really restart this whole thing.

I see the sequel to this being the Dark Night..
I felt the same way about Batman Begins as you do about this film.
What does 'this kind of film' mean?

The thing with Trek XI is that I find the story completely retarded.

It's like if Batman Begins had started with The Joker going back in time to the 60s Batman show and killing Commisioner Gordon and then an old Robin played by Burt Ward comes back in time and then he meets Christian Bale's Batman and then we get Batman Begins and The Dark Knight.
 
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See that's the thing. I knew this would have to be the kind of film it was to really restart this whole thing.

I see the sequel to this being the Dark Night..
I felt the same way about Batman Begins as you do about this film.
What does 'this kind of film' mean?

The thing with Trek XI is that I find the story completely retarded.

It's like if Batman Begins had started with The Joker going back in time to the 60s Batman show and killing Commisioner Gordon and then an old Robin played by Burt Ward comes back in time and then he meets Christian Bale's Batman and then we get Batman Begins and The Dark Knight.

And the End Credits have Gachiano's interpretation of Dadadadadadadadada-BATMAN!
 
Please stop referring to FC as a "blockbuster" with "crossover appeal". It did 92 million. Some of you are so good at rewriting the past, you could work in politics.
 
Please stop referring to FC as a "blockbuster" with "crossover appeal". It did 92 million. Some of you are so good at rewriting the past, you could work in politics.
Holy shit! People referring to FC as a Blockbuster and having crossover appeal has swayed my vote! Trek XI all the way!
 
Please stop referring to FC as a "blockbuster" with "crossover appeal". It did 92 million. Some of you are so good at rewriting the past, you could work in politics.

ST:FC made (in 2008 dollars) $125,062,798 domestically and $203,844,944 world wide. It was made for the 2008 equivalent of $62,512,449.59, about 45% of ST11's budget. That's very successful, and certainly a blockbuster for a mid-range budgeted movie. The only movie released in 1996 with a smaller budget and a bigger take than ST:FC was Scream. (src: Box Office Mojo, excluding only productions without a published budget)

I don't know about "crossover appeal," that's a vague Hollywood spin term.
 
Abrams's Star Trek felt more like what was great about TOS than just about anything that's been done since 1969. I suppose there may be some exceptions amongst the TOS movies - TWOK? - but it's largely true.

The rest of Trek is okay, but it's not Kirk and Spock and McCoy as they once were, and so it's lesser. Three years in the 60s, and Trek '09, and that's pretty much it.

Oh, and I loved Serenity - but I hadn't carried a torch for Firefly in the years leading up to it. My all-I-could-afford-during-a-life-crisis broadcast reception of the local Fox affiliate was awful during the show's original run, so I'd followed a few episodes half-heartedly and had only become really acquainted with it on DVD (still not watching all of it) as a result of one of my kids being a big, big fan (the kid who's least absorbed in sf/fantasy stuff otherwise, interestingly). I could see that Serenity was different in tone - a little more relentlessly bleak - than Firefly, but it didn't bother me. And Glass at least got a classic, "old Hollywood western" death scene out of it (unlike poor Wash, who received a typically Whedonesque dispatch. :lol:).
 
First Contact was like a lot of Trek: very ambitious, a lot of big ideas, with just enough action and excitement to make it palatable, but rather mediocre in execution, too absorbed in its own mythology, overly stolid and self-important.

Star Trek 09 was very thin on ideas and basically pretty incoherent, but its presentation was sensational, it was fast-paced and fun, and it didn't take itself too seriously. These things are also important, and it was good for Trek to shake off the dust and realize that it can have sex appeal and something besides classical music in the soundtrack.

I liked them both, and I hope the sequel has the best of both worlds, so to speak ;)
 
See that's the thing. I knew this would have to be the kind of film it was to really restart this whole thing.

I see the sequel to this being the Dark Night..
I felt the same way about Batman Begins as you do about this film.
What does 'this kind of film' mean?

The thing with Trek XI is that I find the story completely retarded.

It's like if Batman Begins had started with The Joker going back in time to the 60s Batman show and killing Commisioner Gordon and then an old Robin played by Burt Ward comes back in time and then he meets Christian Bale's Batman and then we get Batman Begins and The Dark Knight.

And the End Credits have Gachiano's interpretation of Dadadadadadadadada-BATMAN!

Are there nipples? If there are nipples, I'm there!
 
Please stop referring to FC as a "blockbuster" with "crossover appeal". It did 92 million. Some of you are so good at rewriting the past, you could work in politics.

ST:FC made (in 2008 dollars) $125,062,798 domestically and $203,844,944 world wide. It was made for the 2008 equivalent of $62,512,449.59, about 45% of ST11's budget. That's very successful, and certainly a blockbuster for a mid-range budgeted movie. The only movie released in 1996 with a smaller budget and a bigger take than ST:FC was Scream. (src: Box Office Mojo, excluding only productions without a published budget)
.
Even by your adjusted numbers, it ain't a huge profitmaker, given that you need 2.5 to 3 times your investment to get a return on a feature film. People called CLIFFHANGER and DEMOLITION MAN 'hits', but look at their costs, and they are FAR from it, they just opened well.
 
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