First Contact alternate timeline

[Hopeful Romantic]

Spoiler: MASSIVE MOVIE SPOILER

Khan was white in Wrath of Khan. Furthermore, his followers magically changed to universally white and blond. Add the big Chekov discontinuity, and I'm afraid WoK can't possibly be the same timeline as TOS
visual aid
Or maybe it's easier to simply call a retcon and retcon?

Spoiler: SPOILER

Khan could have met Chekov off screen, and his skin color could have changed because of the environmental conditions on Ceti Alpha V. But you know that very well, don't you?

Spoiler: SPOILER

I seem to recall Walter Koenig joking in an interview the reason Khan was so pissy towards Chekov in TWoK was because in Space Speed Chekov wouldn't let Khan use the rest room off screen.

YOU HAVE DISPLEASED ME

I have fixed your blithe spoiler-tag-free posts.

Read this: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=202273

Now get with the program and USE SPOILER TAGS or go away, to the movie spoiler thread.

I AM KEEPING TRACK OF TRANSGRESSIONS. Any more of this and you get a warning.

 

[R. Star]

Uh... I was talking about

Spoiler: too late to salvage this, but I have to try

the Wrath of Khan/Space Seed

HR... are you saying we have to use spoiler tags for all the movies?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Uh... I was talking about

Spoiler: too late to salvage this, but I have to try

the Wrath of Khan/Space Seed

HR... are you saying we have to use spoiler tags for all the movies?

Ahem, this discussion began with "Consider with what we see in STID..." and then you all elaborated, with pictures even. In the process SPOILING A MAJOR PLOT POINT FOR YOUR MODERATOR who hasn't seen the movie yet.



Just post somewhere else - the TrekXI+ forum, the designated spoiler thread here - and put a link here. Or use spoiler tags. Or read the posts that come before, so you know you're adding spoiler material. Okay? Please? Just be aware.

 

[Squiggy]

Cochrane saw the silhouette of the ship through a telescope while being anything but totally sober. Given that he broke the warp barrier, met guys from the future who told him about a bright future and friggin cyborg and then met aliens I doubt he has a precise memory of the shape of the E.
I also don't see much of a similarity between the sleak, arrow-like E and the NX-01.

He also saw it in better detail before E-E fired on him.

 

[R. Star]

Uh... I was talking about

Spoiler: too late to salvage this, but I have to try

the Wrath of Khan/Space Seed

HR... are you saying we have to use spoiler tags for all the movies?

Ahem, this discussion began with "Consider with what we see in STID..." and then you all elaborated, with pictures even. In the process SPOILING A MAJOT PLOT POINT FOR YOUR MODERATOR who hasn't seen the movie yet.



Just post somewhere else - the TrekXI+ forum, the designated spoiler thread here - and put a link here. Or use spoiler tags. Or read the posts that come before, so you know you're adding spoiler material. Okay? Please? Just be aware.

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't think my comment had anything to do with the movie and certainly didn't post it with any ill intent. Though if I contributed to spoiling the movie for you, I do apologize.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Look, it's pretty simple. When you bring up or comment on a subject that happens to coincide with a major plot point of a Trek movie release, such as

Spoiler: examples of surprise-killing spoilers

comparing Adm. Marcus to Paxton, Pike's end, or for crying out loud, Khan in any way shape or form *facepalm* gawd I can't believe I know this much about a movie I have avoided for 2 yrs

BE AWARE that someone else might bring up the movie, or already has, putting the entire discussion in the danger zone.

Context! Hello!

And btw, if you're asking a question about a SPOILER under discussion, it's a good idea to put the damn question in spoiler tags too.

SIMPLE. Basic courtesy and caution, that is all that's required here. This is not rocket science, people.

And get used to it. I'll be on your asses about this until the movie comes out on DVD/BluRay.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm so sorry, HopefulRomantic! Got carried away and assumed everyone had seen it by now.

 

[T'Girl]

and the curious TATV which seems to take place during TNG Pegasus despite them not lining up symmetrically. Riker and Troi's age difference, the way events unfolded in Pegasus differ from the way they were shown in TATV, Troi's hair, Riker's decision to confide in Troi in TATV the way not shown in Pegasus,

All good reasons to suspect that the future of the ENT series' universe isn't set in the TNG prime universe. And that ENT itself is not occurring in the prime universe, but instead a universe that branched off the prime a century earlier. The two universes are similar, but also different in important ways.

Spoiler: MASSIVE MOVIE SPOILER

Khan was white in Wrath of Khan. Furthermore, his followers magically changed to universally white and blond. Add the big Chekov discontinuity, and I'm afraid WoK can't possibly be the same timeline as TOS

Spoiler: Not Really SPOILER

Ricardo Montalban (Ricardo Gonzalo Pedro Montalbán y Merino) was a Mexican Hispanic and therefor was brown and not white.

Now a Mexican Hispanic and a Indian Sikh aren't the same, but they did at least get the skin pigment basically correct.

A White Khan in the resent movie is just one more indication that the Abrams alternate universe was never apart of the prime universe. It didn't "split off," it was alway separate.

 

[Oso Blanco]

YOU HAVE DISPLEASED ME

I'm truly sorry ... I thought the content of STID was common knowledge by now ...

 

[Cadet49]

Just wondered if there was a consensus among ENT fans that the events in ST:FC created an alternate timeline, where ENT takes place.

It seems likely to me, it would explain the "modern" look of the NX-01, if Lily's exposure to the Enterprise-E got back to the designers of the NX program.

The episode "Regeneration" seems to indicate this as well, as obviously Cochrane wouldn't have spoke of "cybernetic organisms" if they hadn't traveled back from the 24th century.

Ever since I saw the 2009 Star Trek movie, I've thought it makes sense that the Temporal Cold War and the events of First Contact created an alternate timeline, and that is the one that Nero ultimately emerged into ... it would explain why we never heard of the Xindi, the Expanse, or the war with them before ENT. Perhaps in the Prime Universe, when the sphere-builders were not interferring, the Xindi were extinct, or stayed isolated, since they had no reason for direct contact with the Federation.

I always thought it could explain why the JJ Verse Enterprise appears so much more advance that TOS Enterprise - perhaps, when the Xindi made peace with the Federation at the end of ENT Season 3, they shared some of their advanced shipbuilding techniques, that led to vast technological jumps in Federation technology, over their Prime Universe counterparts...

Sure, Archer's data appears on a screen on the Prime Universe Defiant in "Through a Mirror, Darkly", but I can ignore that by assuming that Archer may have captained another vessel, maybe even the one named "Enterprise" that we see on the wall of Kirk's ship in the Motion Picture ...

As for Prime Universe Riker and Troi knowing about the ENT timeline in "These Are the Voyages", perhaps the Enterprise-D or some other Starfleet vessel (or perhapes the Department ofg Temporal Investigations) had explored some parallel universes following Worf's discovery in Parallels - they certainly encounter enough temporal rifts and anomalies... Riker may have created a holodeck program based on one of the alternate timelines they discovered, to explore it more (though he might now know about the First Contact events yet...)

To sum up, I definitely think of ENT as part of the JJ Abrams universe, but not part of the Prime Universe, though novelists and other writers have tried to

 

[Captain Atkin]

Is it possible that the Borg received the message from the drones AFTER the death of the Queen in ST: First Contact? At the end of "Regeneration", they said that it would probably take about 200 years for the message to reach the Delta Quadrant. Perhaps the Borg Queen did not know what would happen if they travelled back in time until after the events of the movie (ie: they had recieved the message too late).

 

[Solariabsg25]

Is it possible that the Borg received the message from the drones AFTER the death of the Queen in ST: First Contact? At the end of "Regeneration", they said that it would probably take about 200 years for the message to reach the Delta Quadrant. Perhaps the Borg Queen did not know what would happen if they travelled back in time until after the events of the movie (ie: they had recieved the message too late).

I seem to remember that the intent of the writers was that the message was interrupted by their destruction, but this partial signal would be the thing that first got the Borg interested in the Federation. Hence, they would start a recon, which resulted in the disappearance of Romulan and Federation facilities along the Neutral Zone, leading through BOBW up to First Contact.

 

[E-DUB]

Someone upthread stated that since "Hope and Fear" aired before ENT was even thought of it could not be relevent to the issue at hand. I would argue that the more germaine episode was the two-parter "Future's End" which established that the crew of Voyager was in the past concurrent, whatever the hell that means when you're discussing time travel, with the events depicted in "First Contact". Changes to the timeline percormed in the mid 21st century did not affect them in the late 20th. This is why the ersatz Starfleet vessel "Dauntless" could bear a registry number of "NX-01A" without raising any red flags. Changes to the timeline only propagate forward, the natural direction of the flow of time.

To illustrate, let's suppose that the events of ST'09 lead to circumstances in which Soong was never born, say a direct ancestor serving on the Kelvin. No Data was ever built. But if Pine-Kirk went to the right spot and dug he would find Data's head right where it was lost in the 19th century, even though no one would ever show up to claim it.

 

[Kevman7987]

It also means that Pine-Kirk could travel back in time to 1930, 1969 (several times), & 1986 and meet an alternate version of himself (Shatner-Kirk)?

Hmm. I wonder if every timeline sticks to itself in a way and Data's head disappears from Earth in 2233 because it continues only in the Prime timeline? This would prevent paradoxes. Or else what prevents our Prime universe crew from returning to the future of the NuTrek Universe? Or did Nero erase the entire Prime Universe save his crew and Spock? If the Prime universe was erased, doesn't that mean that anything our future crews did in the past is erased by their erasure?

SO help me if Roberto Orci erased the Prime Universe...

Anyway, my idea is that timelines are closed and can only affect themselves. Therefore, we must either accept that NuTrek erased the Prime universe, or that Nero and Spock traveled backwards and sideways into the 2233 of a completely alternate universe.

Time travel makes no sense...

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Multiverse/parallel universe concept helps iron out the continuity problems with most time travel fiascos.

The problem with ENT Regeneration line about it make take 200 years to reach the delta quad. Is that its a detail that the writers came up with to fill an undefined area in 2003 from an episode (Q Who) which was aired in 1989. Retcon i think is to strong a word but it may apply here. It's similar to what George Lucas did with the Star Wars prequels and how the details of Anakin's training, Anakin's fall to the dark side, the clone wars, Luke and Leia's family details were retroactively explained decades later.


You can watch TNG "Q Who" and "BOBW" without ever watching ENT "Regeneration" and you would know that the reason the Borg invaded Federation space was because of their initial encounter with the ENT-D . How they damaged a cube, and miraculously (thanks to Q) escaped a pursuing cube. Jean-Luc Picard was kidnapped and made the voice of the Borg because of his status as captain of the flagship of the Federation. Information the Borg drones who absorbed the date from the ENT-D's computers and Q Who would've gathered and processed and sent throughout the collective.

As a timeline though it should work like this

Q Who : First Contact with the Borg
BOBW
First Contact film: Time travel changes the past several times
Regeneration

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You can watch TNG "Q Who" and "BOBW" without ever watching ENT "Regeneration" and you would know that the reason the Borg invaded Federation space was because of their initial encounter with the ENT-D . How they damaged a cube, and miraculously (thanks to Q) escaped a pursuing cube.

The cube in "Q Who" was already headed in the direction of the Alpha Quadrant (thanks to the message from Regeneration) when the Ent-D encountered it.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ Or was it the message sent by the throat/neck alien slugs from TNG Conspiracy. Remember the Borg were supposed to be insectoid cybernetic race but that was changed to humanoid because of budget?
lol

Touché though good sir. I never thought that the cube in Q Who may be on it's way to the Alpha quad. I'll have to watch it again to see if you're correct about that.

---EDIT---
Also remember the Borg we're already in the Alpha and Beta Quads since they were attack Federation and Romulan outposts in TNG The Neutral Zone. That could account for the cube headed toward Earth in Q Who and BOBW.

 

[E-DUB]

Is it possible for a trip to the past to be both a predestination paradox and something else? In other words, you go to the past because you're supposed to, you do what you're supposed to but you maybe do another thing or two that isn't part of what you were supposed to do and that has consequences.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So instead of a circle, it's like someone going mad with a spirograph?

 

[JJohnson]

Let's say there's two timelines:

Original: 2063 (Zefram makes flight himself), then TOS, then TNG/DS9/VOY

New: 2063 (Zefram has help), ENT, TOS, then TNG/DS9/VOY

Would there be an NX-01 in the original without the crew of the Enterprise coming back in time and interfering with history? Even unintentionally pre-choosing the name 'Enterprise' for the first vessel? I know chronologically they couldn't have known of Enterprise in TMP or TNG, but there was no mention of it on the history walls. Could that be taken to mean the NX-01 or whatever it was originally meant to be wasn't 'Enterprise' or does the Next-Gen wall represent UFP ships called Enterprise?